Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

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Jay Ross

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Hello,

In Daniel 7:13-14, the Son of Man, i.e. Christ, is given dominion over all of the people during the Millennium age and possibly during the Millennium Age such that all of the people should worship Him.
 

justbyfaith

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You cannot have saving faith apart from first having the Holy Spirit.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)
You cannot enter into this grace wherein we stand apart from first having faith. Faith is the key to the door by which we enter into the room of grace.

Romans 5:1-2,

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
 

OzSpen

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If Christ died for all and all are not saved, his death didn't save anyone. It only made it possible for people to save themselves through obedience = works.

Dave,

I find that to be an illogical jump, i.e. Christ died for all; all are not saved, so Jesus' death didn't save anyone.

You leave the only possible solution being for people to save themselves through works??

Seems to me that you've missed other possibilities such as:
  1. Jesus died for all people (Jn 6:51; 2 Cor 5:14-15; 1 Jn 2:2);
  2. All are not saved - there is no universal salvation (Matt 25:46;
  3. God, in His grace, uses a different approach to your theology to draw people to salvation (Jn 3:16, 18, 36). That different approach is:
  4. People choose to accept or reject God's offer of salvation; God has given them the power of alternative choice - called free will (Acts 17; 2 Cor 5:11).
  5. God has given people this power of alternate choice since the time of Adam and Eve (Gen 2:16-17).
Oz
 

OzSpen

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Where is faith a condition for salvation? It's a characteristic for those whom God saves.

No, Dave.

That's not what Acts 16:29-31 (NIV) teaches:

29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 They replied, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household.’​

The Greek verb for 'I believe' is pisteuw. The noun, faith, is pistis. Both the noun and the verb are from the same root. So pisteuw could be just as easily translated as, 'have faith in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved'.

Since the verb pisteuson is an imperative (command) - 2nd person, singular, aorist, active, imperative - the jailer was commanded to 'believe/have faith' to be saved.

This is clear that faith is necessary for salvation; it precedes salvation (instantly??).

Rom 10:9-10 (NIV) proclaims a similar message that faith/believing precedes salvation:

9 if you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.​

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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I think it is the most popular view today. If people only knew the joy of seeing their faith as evidence God saved them, and not a mindset they need to struggle with to make salvation happen. What a heavy burden.

Dave, you are pushing an agenda.

I've seen no biblical evidence presented by you in this post to support what you said.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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***

What do you mean by seeing faith? Faith is not evidence that can be seen. It is what a person does in their heart. Faith has no physical substance that can be seen by our eyes. Faith is believing something that can not be seen.

A simple example is that I have faith that my car will start in the morning but I can't see it until it happens and when I see it then there is no reason for faith.

Today we are told to place our faith in Jesus' work on the cross and that IS found in Paul's gospel.

HR,

There is evidence for faith. We know that we have this unseen faith when this happens:

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,’ but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, ‘You have faith; I have deeds.’

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds (James 2:14-18 NIV).​

Yes, inward faith is unseen. However, inward faith demonstrates its existence by doing good deeds: 'I will show you my faith by my deeds'.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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So, Christ died for all sins except the sin of unbelief? This means he didn't pay for any sin since all sin is the result of unbelief.

Dave,

That doesn't make sense to me. If 'all sin is the result of unbelief', then how can Jesus die for anybody's sin?

Are you suggesting the Calvinistic belief of regeneration preceding salvation?

Oz
 

OzSpen

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Yes, and faith (faithfulness) is a fruit of the Holy Spirit we must have before faith can exist.

Dave,

I honestly don't know which Bible you are reading to come up with that kind of statement. You give no biblical reference to support your claim. So that leaves me to understand you are giving your opinion.

The Galatians 5 passage that teaches on the fruit of the Spirit states:

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other (Gal 5:19-26 NIV).​

Who are the people Paul addressed. They are 'brothers and sisters' (in Christ) [Gal 5:13].

Gal 5:26 states exactly who are able to allow the fruit of faithfulness to grow: 'Those who belong to Christ Jesus' (5:24).

The fruit of faithfulness is only possible for those who have faith in Jesus and 'belong to Christ Jesus'. Faithfulness is a fruit of sanctification while the believer grows in Christ.

Galatians 5 teaches that your statement, 'faith (faithfulness) is a fruit of the Holy Spirit we must have before faith can exist', is false.

Oz
 
D

Dave L

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Dave,

I honestly don't know which Bible you are reading to come up with that kind of statement. You give no biblical reference to support your claim. So that leaves me to understand you are giving your opinion.

The Galatians 5 passage that teaches on the fruit of the Spirit states:

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other (Gal 5:19-26 NIV).​

Who are the people Paul addressed. They are 'brothers and sisters' (in Christ) [Gal 5:13].

Gal 5:26 states exactly who are able to allow the fruit of faithfulness to grow: 'Those who belong to Christ Jesus' (5:24).

The fruit of faithfulness is only possible for those who have faith in Jesus and 'belong to Christ Jesus'. Faithfulness is a fruit of sanctification while the believer grows in Christ.

Galatians 5 teaches that your statement, 'faith (faithfulness) is a fruit of the Holy Spirit we must have before faith can exist', is false.

Oz
Human faith is not biblical faith. You must have the Holy Spirit before his fruit, in this case, faith can exist.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
Dave,

That doesn't make sense to me. If 'all sin is the result of unbelief', then how can Jesus die for anybody's sin?

Are you suggesting the Calvinistic belief of regeneration preceding salvation?

Oz
Universal atonement does not save anyone.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
Dave, you are pushing an agenda.

I've seen no biblical evidence presented by you in this post to support what you said.

Oz
If Christ died for all and all are not saved, his death didn't save anyone.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
Dave,

I find that to be an illogical jump, i.e. Christ died for all; all are not saved, so Jesus' death didn't save anyone.

You leave the only possible solution being for people to save themselves through works??

Seems to me that you've missed other possibilities such as:
  1. Jesus died for all people (Jn 6:51; 2 Cor 5:14-15; 1 Jn 2:2);
  2. All are not saved - there is no universal salvation (Matt 25:46;
  3. God, in His grace, uses a different approach to your theology to draw people to salvation (Jn 3:16, 18, 36). That different approach is:
  4. People choose to accept or reject God's offer of salvation; God has given them the power of alternative choice - called free will (Acts 17; 2 Cor 5:11).
  5. God has given people this power of alternate choice since the time of Adam and Eve (Gen 2:16-17).
Oz
Universal atonement only makes salvation possible for the self-righteous. Which of course means nobody is saved because of it.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
Dave,

Would you please provide biblical evidence to support your statements here?

Oz
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) God must give you the Holy Spirit before you can believe. He gives it only to those for whom Christ died.

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26)

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)
 
D

Dave L

Guest
You cannot enter into this grace wherein we stand apart from first having faith. Faith is the key to the door by which we enter into the room of grace.

Romans 5:1-2,

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Human faith is not biblical faith.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
Totally backwards.
Christ doesn't say "you I'm going to save and force to have faith", and hence you have faith. And other people... well, just sucks to be them.

Rather, Christ offers His gift of faith for everyone, same with salvation. We each have a choice to accept Christ and be lifted by Him. Some accept, some decline. God loves the entire world and offers this gift to all. We each just choose whether or not to accept Him.

“Although Jesus had performed so many miraculous signs before them, they still refused to believe in him, so that the word of Isaiah the prophet would be fulfilled. He said, “Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”For this reason they could not believe, because again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their heart, and turn to me, and I would heal them.”” (John 12:37–40)
 
D

Dave L

Guest
Start with John 3:16.
Note: I totally disagree with the idea of forced faith/salvation.
This shows you do not yet understand salvation. Jesus paid for all of the sins of those who want salvation. He did not pay for the sins of those who do not want salvation, but love their sins more than him.
 

Jane_Doe22

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“Although Jesus had performed so many miraculous signs before them, they still refused to believe in him, so that the word of Isaiah the prophet would be fulfilled. He said, “Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”For this reason they could not believe, because again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their heart, and turn to me, and I would heal them.”” (John 12:37–40)
"They refused to believe..."
 
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Nancy

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No, Dave.

That's not what Acts 16:29-31 (NIV) teaches:

29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 They replied, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household.’​

The Greek verb for 'I believe' is pisteuw. The noun, faith, is pistis. Both the noun and the verb are from the same root. So pisteuw could be just as easily translated as, 'have faith in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved'.

Since the verb pisteuson is an imperative (command) - 2nd person, singular, aorist, active, imperative - the jailer was commanded to 'believe/have faith' to be saved.

This is clear that faith is necessary for salvation; it precedes salvation (instantly??).

Rom 10:9-10 (NIV) proclaims a similar message that faith/believing precedes salvation:

9 if you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.​

Oz
Very good! I do not see how it can be any clearer.
 
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Enoch111

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Universal atonement does not save anyone.
Still resisting the truth. The more you resist it, the less light you will have.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.(1 John 2:2)
 
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