-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Not the same applies to me.
I am neither a Hebrew or a Jew.
I asked if you were a Calvinist.
I guess you are declining to answer.
Are you telling me you are a TULIP?
Is that a denomination of Christianity?
God Bless,
Taken
BreadOfLife
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2017
- 20,936
- 3,387
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Cherry-picking Scripture to arrive at your twisted doctrine is NOT the answer.
I can cherry-pick verses out of context that say there is NO God – but that doesn’t make it true.
Again – you cherry-pick Scripture – you don’t understand it in CONTEXT.
Rom. 10:13 says that all those who “call upon” the name of the Lord will be saved – but JESUS said in Matt. 7:21 that NOT ALL who call upon Him will be saved – bot only the one who DOES the will of the Father.
Was He lying – or is it simply that YOU don’t understand CONTEXT??
And NONE of the verses that you just cited support OSAS.
They simply say that nobody can snatch us away from God. Only WE can make that choice.
They say that Jesus and the Holy Spirit will ALWAYS be with us.
You didn’t present the verses that I did which show that WE can walk away from Him.
CONTEXT, son. You will NEVER get it until you read ALL of Scripture in CONTEXT and stop cherry-picking . . .
Peter spoke well of people like YOU when he wrote:
2 Pet. 3:16
His (Paul) letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Inside every cherry there is a seed. But really, Romans 4:6 is found in a cluster. Romans 4:1-8 says clearly as a whole (perhaps even more clearly) what I am trying to say to you.
Not every one who says to Him, Lord, Lord, will be saved...there are those who do not call upon Him in truth...He is not their Lord even though they mouth the words....they merely give Him lip service...see Matthew 15:8). However, all those who truly call on the name of the Lord (in truth) shall be saved...because they confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus after having believed unto a heart righteousness (Romans 10:10)...see 1 John 3:7, Romans 6:16. When they confess Him as Lord, it means that they agree with God that He is their Lord...therefore how can this be if He is not their Lord...if He isn't, then God would not say that He is! If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things have passed away; behold, all things are become new! 2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv). Those who are truly born again will do the will of the Father (from the heart) because their heart has been regenerated and renewed...they are not identified by Titus 3:3 any longer, but by Romans 5:5!
The elect are preserved by a for ever fear of the LORD so that they shall not depart (i.e. walk away) from Him. The passage that I have set before you on this is Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv).
Last edited:
I gave you an answer.
So I guess that you would interpret it based on what you define to be a Calvinist. If someone who holds to three of the five points of Calvinism is someone that you would define as a Calvinist, then I am guilty as charged. However on two of the five points I am quite Arminian at this time in my understanding of theology.
Last edited:
I don't define a Calvinist...nor could say what they do or do not believe.
I simply asked you if you consider yourself a Calvinist. You didn't say yes or no.
God Bless,
Merry Christmas,
Taken
Obviously. Because I am Calvinist in some points of my belief and Arminian in other points of my belief.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
I am what used to be called secure Arminianism. But it appears that term is not used anymore.
In a very short description it means we come to Christ in total free will and once saved our we are predestined all the way to glorification.
I reject Calvinism and Arminianism. Calvinism says you have no choice in your salvation and Arminianism says you can walk away from it. I find neither taught the Bible.
Romans 8:31-39 New International Version (NIV)
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, whoi]" have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
More Than Conquerors
31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
There is no exemption here for self.
And, since we are changed when born-again, I cannot comprehend anybody ever wanting to walk away for any reason.
In the ancient war in heaven the angels make the choice. One third chose eternal damnation and two thirds total devotion to God.
The same with the pre-adamic. Some became demons and we are not told where the others are, but it is obvious to me the four living creatures in heaven are pre-adamics. They are flesh so absolutely not angels.
The rich man in hell never expressed repentance.
The Bible is quite clear that those in hell will be in the lake for eternity. Those in the New Jerusalem will be there for eternity.
So when we make an eternal commitment, one way or the other, we will never change our minds.
It is hard to comprehend, I grant.
In a very short description it means we come to Christ in total free will and once saved our we are predestined all the way to glorification.
I reject Calvinism and Arminianism. Calvinism says you have no choice in your salvation and Arminianism says you can walk away from it. I find neither taught the Bible.
Romans 8:31-39 New International Version (NIV)
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, whoi]" have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
More Than Conquerors
31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
There is no exemption here for self.
And, since we are changed when born-again, I cannot comprehend anybody ever wanting to walk away for any reason.
In the ancient war in heaven the angels make the choice. One third chose eternal damnation and two thirds total devotion to God.
The same with the pre-adamic. Some became demons and we are not told where the others are, but it is obvious to me the four living creatures in heaven are pre-adamics. They are flesh so absolutely not angels.
The rich man in hell never expressed repentance.
The Bible is quite clear that those in hell will be in the lake for eternity. Those in the New Jerusalem will be there for eternity.
So when we make an eternal commitment, one way or the other, we will never change our minds.
It is hard to comprehend, I grant.
Last edited:
BreadOfLife
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2017
- 20,936
- 3,387
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
NONSENSE.
Until you can address the verses I presented earlier - you have NO CASE.
"Epignosis" is Kryptonite to your case . . .
Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?
Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.
Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind person . . .
1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.
2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.
1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.
Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot "blot out" a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.
Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.
I have addressed all the verses that you have presented. Maybe you were busy; so you didn't see what I posted.
post #418 (Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement)
BreadOfLife
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2017
- 20,936
- 3,387
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
No - you NEVER address EPIGJNOSIS in these passages.
That is your Achilles Heel.
BreadOfLife
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2017
- 20,936
- 3,387
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Again with the cherry-picking - and again with the perverted doctrine of OSAS.
Cherry-picking Scripture OUT of context is NEVER a good idea . . .
The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.
However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.
Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.
Instead of creating a doctrine for EACH of these steps in the process - we Catholics understand Salvation as a process.
You Calvinists, however, have dissected this process and taken the FIRST part to mean that it is "FOREVER".
Unfortunately - you completely ignore verses that DESTROY this false doctrine like Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet.r 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5 and Rev. 22:19.
The ignorant and unstable twisting the Scriptures to your own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16) . . .
How does 1 John 5:13 teach what you are trying to espouse?
I looked at all of your verses, and here is my response:
If you will read the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23, Mark 4:1-20, Luke 8:4-15), I believe that you will see that there are three types of ground that do not produce fruit. In one, the person believes for a while, and when persecution comes, they fall away. Another type of ground, the fruit is choked out by the weeds of the temptations of this world. But the good soil produces fruit with persevering patience.
I posit to you that it is only the good soil, in the parable, that can avail ourselves of the promises of scripture found in John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, Hebrews 13:5, Matthew 28:20, etc. These promises are promises of eternal security for the believer, whether you like it or not. But they only apply to Jesus' sheep, whom He knows (John 10:27). And those whom He knows are not workers of iniquity (Matthew 7:23).
So if someone claims to be a Christian in front of you and falls away later, they were very likely never one of Jesus' sheep. Because it is promised to Jesus' sheep that they shall never perish (John 10:28). Also they shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24 (kjv)).
A person can have a mental assent to the doctrines of the faith (and thus be in the faith); but not have a living and saving faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10, 1 John 3:7); a faith that is of the heart.
It is only those who have a heart faith that is unto righteousness, who are the good soil in the parable and who can avail themselves of the aforementioned promises on eternal security.
Scriptures to ponder:
2 Peter 1:3-4;
Hebrews 11:33;
2 Corinthians 1:20;
Romans 4:20-22.
I looked at all of your verses, and here is my response:
If you will read the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23, Mark 4:1-20, Luke 8:4-15), I believe that you will see that there are three types of ground that do not produce fruit. In one, the person believes for a while, and when persecution comes, they fall away. Another type of ground, the fruit is choked out by the weeds of the temptations of this world. But the good soil produces fruit with persevering patience.
I posit to you that it is only the good soil, in the parable, that can avail ourselves of the promises of scripture found in John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, Hebrews 13:5, Matthew 28:20, etc. These promises are promises of eternal security for the believer, whether you like it or not. But they only apply to Jesus' sheep, whom He knows (John 10:27). And those whom He knows are not workers of iniquity (Matthew 7:23).
So if someone claims to be a Christian in front of you and falls away later, they were very likely never one of Jesus' sheep. Because it is promised to Jesus' sheep that they shall never perish (John 10:28). Also they shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24 (kjv)).
A person can have a mental assent to the doctrines of the faith (and thus be in the faith); but not have a living and saving faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10, 1 John 3:7); a faith that is of the heart.
It is only those who have a heart faith that is unto righteousness, who are the good soil in the parable and who can avail themselves of the aforementioned promises on eternal security.
Scriptures to ponder:
2 Peter 1:3-4;
Hebrews 11:33;
2 Corinthians 1:20;
Romans 4:20-22.
