Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

[BreadOfLife]

I don't know if this is a word of knowledge or anything...but is there someone in your life who got saved; and you resent the fact that they got saved, and want them to fall away?

@BreadOfLife

I now PLENTY of people who are I the process of being saved.
Whether or NOT they are actually “Saved” is between them and GOD.

I don’t presume to know the state of a person’s soul – even if YOU do.
That is ONLY for God to know - NOT sanctimonious anti-Catholics . . ..

 

[BreadOfLife]

There is a type of faith that doesn't save (James 2:14-17). I consider that this is a certain mental assent to the tenets of the gospel, that does not change the person's life, based on what I have learned so far.

It’s not “Faith” at ALL.

James is talking about BELIEF. That’s what he compares it to what the DEMONS have. If ALL you do is believe – then you’re no better off than the Demons.

The Bible teaches that TRUE Faith = Belief + OBEDIENCE (Works)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Every scripture verse stands on its own as a bastion of biblical truth...

That’s completely untrue.
WHO taught you this nonsense?? Probably the same person who taught you the perversion of OSAS, I presume . . .

YOU are constantly taking verse out of context.
Taken OUT of context as YOU usually do - Psalm 14:1 states: “There is no God.”

Does this “stand on its own” as a “bastion of truth”??
ONLY to a person like YOU who is used to perverting God’s sacred Word . . .

 

[justbyfaith]

NOBODY can “snatch” you out of God’s hand. Only YOU can walk away from Him.

See Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv). The for ever fear of the LORD acts as a safeguard against falling away--so that those who fear Him shall not depart (i.e. walk away) from Him.

NOT sanctimonious anti-Catholics . . ..

I am certainly not against Catholics...I believe that they also can be born again of the Holy Spirit through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

The Bible teaches that TRUE Faith = Belief + OBEDIENCE (Works)

Actually it doesn't. If you open your eyes and see the meaning of Romans 4:5, Romans 4:6, Romans 11:5-6 (kjv), Ephesians 2:8-9 (kjv), and Titus 3:4-7 (kjv); then I believe you will change your point of view if you really see it and do not harden your heart as in the provocation.

Taken OUT of context as YOU usually do - Psalm 14:1 states: “There is no God.”

Does this “stand on its own” as a “bastion of truth”??
ONLY to a person like YOU who is used to perverting God’s sacred Word . . .

What I am saying is that every full verse stands on its own as a bastion of biblical truth. (It is always helpful to our understanding, to know both the immediate and topical contexts). Even satan quoted half-verses in order to deceive, when tempting Jesus. God has ordained that angels will bear you up in their hands and will "keep you in all your ways" according to the original quote in Psalms 91:11 (which the devil misquoted in Matthew 4:6 and Luke 4:10-11; omitting the part that he knew might help Jesus against him in that temptation).

But Psalms 14:1 and Psalms 53:1 says, The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

I'm surprised that you actually thought of that as a valid argument.

 

[BreadOfLife]

See Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv). The for ever fear of the LORD acts as a safeguard against falling away--so that those who fear Him shall not depart (i.e. walk away) from Him.

You’re doing it AGAIN.
You are cherry-picking verses OUT of CONTEXT.

Jer. 32:38-40 doesn’t say that a person CANNOT fall away. God is saying that He will give them the tools so they WON’T fall away.

You can’t take verses out of context with the rest of Scripture. YOU are trying feverishly to pit one verse against another – and that will NEVER work.

This is the Word of Almighty GOD – not some Protestant minister . . .

Actually it doesn't. If you open your eyes and see the meaning of Romans 4:5, Romans 4:6, Romans 11:5-6 (kjv), Ephesians 2:8-9 (kjv), and Titus 3:4-7 (kjv); then I believe you will change your point of view if you really see it and do not harden your heart as in the provocation.

Uhhhhh, YES it does.

Just because YOU’VE perverted Romans 4 does NOT mean what you want it to mean. James 2:21 states explicitly that Abraham was justified by his WORKS when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar.

Does this “contradict” Romans 4? NOT to a person who understands Scripture and context.
When you take BOTH James 2 and Romans 4 in context - you see that Faith = Belief + Obedience.

What I am saying is that every full verse stands on its own as a bastion of biblical truth. (It is always helpful to our understanding, to know both the immediate and topical contexts). Even satan quoted half-verses in order to deceive, when tempting Jesus. God has ordained that angels will bear you up in their hands and will "keep you in all your ways" according to the original quote in Psalms 91:11 (which the devil misquoted in Matthew 4:6 and Luke 4:10-11; omitting the part that he knew might help Jesus against him in that temptation).

But Psalms 14:1 and Psalms 53:1 says, The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

I'm surprised that you actually thought of that as a valid argument.

And I’m glad that YOU just said that.

MOST,, if not ALL Protestants are fond of Rom. 3:23 when trying to “prove” that Mary sinned because it says that “ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”
NONE of you seems to want to admit that Paul is alluding to the VERY Psalm that I just brought up and is talking about FOOLS – not “ALL” people.

CONTEXT, son – you need to learn about CONTEXT . . .

 

[CoreIssue]

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.


35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:


“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

OSAS,
No exceptions, no escape clauses and no doubts. Once you are saved you are always saved.

Free will in the choice then predestined.

 

[justbyfaith]

Just because YOU’VE perverted Romans 4 does NOT mean what you want it to mean. James 2:21 states explicitly that Abraham was justified by his WORKS when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar.

My response to James 2:21: See Romans 4:2. Also 1 Samuel 16:7.

Abraham was justified at the time that he believed in the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness...what was the timing of this? At Genesis 15:6...many years before he offered Isaac on the altar!

God saw Abraham's invisible faith, and Abraham was justified by it alone, many years before any works were shown forth to demonstrate his faith. Before God, Abraham was not justified by his works (again, Romans 4:2).

Before man, Abraham was justified when his faith was shown forth by his action of offering Isaac.

 

[BreadOfLife]

My response to James 2:21: See Romans 4:2. Also 1 Samuel 16:7.

Abraham was justified at the time that he believed in the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness...what was the timing of this? At Genesis 15:6...many years before he offered Isaac on the altar!

God saw Abraham's invisible faith, and Abraham was justified by it alone, many years before any works were shown forth to demonstrate his faith.

Before man, Abraham was justified when his faith was shown forth by his action of offering Isaac.

And you CONTINUE to be ignorant of CONTEXT.

I’ve already shown you that Scripture explicitly teaches that salvation is a PROCESS – not a one-time, slam dunk event.

Once again . . .

The Bible says: I am ALREADY SAVED - This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe and be baptized.

1 Pet. 3:21 – This prefigured BAPTISM, WHICH SAVES YOU NOW. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Rom. 5:1-2 - Therefore, since WE HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access (by faith) to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God.

Rom. 8:24-25 - For in hope WE WERE SAVED. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait with endurance.

Eph. 2:5–8 - even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus, 7that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For by grace YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God.


The Bible says: I am BEING SAVED - This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

1 Cor. 1:8 – He will keep you firm to the end, irreproachable on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor. 2:15 - For we are the aroma of Christ for God among those who are BEING SAVED and among those who are perishing,

2 Cor. 7:1 - Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of flesh and spirit, making holiness perfect in the fear of God.

Phil. 2:12 - So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING.

Heb 12:14 - Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord.


The Bible says: I WILL BE SAVED - This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

Matt. 24:13 - But the one who perseveres to the end WILL BE SAVED.

Rom. 5:9–10 - How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, WILL BE SAVED through him from the wrath. Indeed, if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, once reconciled, WILL BE SAVED by his life.

1 Cor. 3:12–15 - If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person WILL BE SAVED, but only as through fire.

 

[BreadOfLife]

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.


35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:


“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

OSAS,
No exceptions, no escape clauses and no doubts. Once you are saved you are always saved.

Free will in the choice then predestined.

Spoken like yet ANOTHER one who is ignorant of Biblical language.

“God Foreknew” simply means that he knows – NOT that he coerced or forced anything or anybody.
God is ETERNAL – OUTSIDE of time and already knows what choices WE made. That is “Foreknowledge”.

He didn’t create robots to love Him and the rest just so He could toss into Hell.
1 Tim. 2:3-4 says in NO uncertain terms that God WILLS the salvation of ALL people and that ALL come to a knowledge of the truth. NOT all will make that choice.

When you learn to read Scripture in CONTEXT - you will see that OSAS is a doctrine of MEN - and demons.

 

[CoreIssue]

Spoken like yet ANOTHER one who is ignorant of Biblical language.

“God Foreknew” simply means that he knows – NOT that he coerced or forced anything or anybody.
God is ETERNAL – OUTSIDE of time and already knows what choices WE made. That is “Foreknowledge”.

He didn’t create robots to love Him and the rest just so He could toss into Hell.
1 Tim. 2:3-4 says in NO uncertain terms that God WILLS the salvation of ALL people and that ALL come to a knowledge of the truth. NOT all will make that choice.

When you learn to read Scripture in CONTEXT - you will see that OSAS is a doctrine of MEN - and demons.

Instead of lashing out pay attention to what I said.

Foreknew means he knows in advance. And since it applies to us today he can't argue he simply knows us. He knew before there was an us.

He knew who would love, which means free will, and then he predestined them all the way to glorification.

Absolutely no Calvinism in that. Nor conditional salvation.

You need to learn how to read with understanding.

 

[Heb 13:8]

And you CONTINUE to be ignorant of CONTEXT.

I’ve already shown you that Scripture explicitly teaches that salvation is a PROCESS – not a one-time, slam dunk event.

No, sanctification is the process. Rom 10:9 is the one time event

 

[Heb 13:8]

It’s not “Faith” at ALL.

James is talking about BELIEF. That’s what he compares it to what the DEMONS have. If ALL you do is believe – then you’re no better off than the Demons.

The Bible teaches that TRUE Faith = Belief + OBEDIENCE (Works)

Demons believe in name only. Abraham believed in God,

 

[justbyfaith]

I'm unclear as to how you think this...

And you CONTINUE to be ignorant of CONTEXT.

I’ve already shown you that Scripture explicitly teaches that salvation is a PROCESS – not a one-time, slam dunk event.

Once again . . .

The Bible says: I am ALREADY SAVED - This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe and be baptized.

1 Pet. 3:21 – This prefigured BAPTISM, WHICH SAVES YOU NOW. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Rom. 5:1-2 - Therefore, since WE HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access (by faith) to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God.

Rom. 8:24-25 - For in hope WE WERE SAVED. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait with endurance.

Eph. 2:5–8 - even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus, 7that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For by grace YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God.


The Bible says: I am BEING SAVED - This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

1 Cor. 1:8 – He will keep you firm to the end, irreproachable on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor. 2:15 - For we are the aroma of Christ for God among those who are BEING SAVED and among those who are perishing,

2 Cor. 7:1 - Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of flesh and spirit, making holiness perfect in the fear of God.

Phil. 2:12 - So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING.

Heb 12:14 - Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord.


The Bible says: I WILL BE SAVED - This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

Matt. 24:13 - But the one who perseveres to the end WILL BE SAVED.

Rom. 5:9–10 - How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, WILL BE SAVED through him from the wrath. Indeed, if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, once reconciled, WILL BE SAVED by his life.

1 Cor. 3:12–15 - If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person WILL BE SAVED, but only as through fire.

...refutes this...

My response to James 2:21: See Romans 4:2. Also 1 Samuel 16:7.

Abraham was justified at the time that he believed in the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness...what was the timing of this? At Genesis 15:6...many years before he offered Isaac on the altar!

God saw Abraham's invisible faith, and Abraham was justified by it alone, many years before any works were shown forth to demonstrate his faith.

Before man, Abraham was justified when his faith was shown forth by his action of offering Isaac.

 

[justbyfaith]

No, sanctification is the process. Rom 10:9 is the one time event

Right...justification happens the moment we place our faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross. We pass from death into everlasting life at the moment of belief in Jesus; more specifically, when we believe on the One who sent Him, having heard His word....John 5:24 (kjv).

 

[Heb 13:8]

Right...justification happens the moment we place our faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross. We pass from death into everlasting life at the moment of belief in Jesus; more specifically, when we believe on the One who sent Him, having heard His word....John 5:24.

See u up up up

 

[justbyfaith]

Jer. 32:38-40 doesn’t say that a person CANNOT fall away. God is saying that He will give them the tools so they WON’T fall away.

Jeremiah 32:38-40 takes care of the loophole that you find in John 10:27-30 quite nicely, however.

 

[justbyfaith]

See u up up up

Very very soon, I am expecting...

 

[justbyfaith]

WHO taught you this nonsense??

See 1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 1:21.

 

[justbyfaith]

deleted...misunderstood post responded to.

 

[justbyfaith]

And I’m glad that YOU just said that.

MOST,, if not ALL Protestants are fond of Rom. 3:23 when trying to “prove” that Mary sinned because it says that “ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”
NONE of you seems to want to admit that Paul is alluding to the VERY Psalm that I just brought up and is talking about FOOLS – not “ALL” people.

CONTEXT, son – you need to learn about CONTEXT . . .

My understanding of that verse is that the fool denies the existence of the Lord in his heart because he does not understand how God can both be Omnipotent and loving in light of the evil that we see in the world.

So, it is not that only the fool is the subject of total depravity...for scripture teaches that all are in the state of depravity from conception...the fool denies the existence of God because of the reality of total depravity...for he does not understand how God can exist in light of the fact of it.

So yes, Mary is indeed included in the "all" of Romans 3:23. Jesus Himself is the only One who is not included in that mess...2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 4:15, 1 Peter 2:22, 1 John 3:5. No verses in scripture like that about Mary...unless you want to change the spelling in 1 Corinthians 7:28, reading it phonetically.... Maybe that's where they get that doctrine, for all I know...