Every cherry has within it a seed that can be planted that will produce a cherry tree, that will produce more cherries, so that the cycle can be repeated...
So I wouldn't discount the value of cherry-picking verses!
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So I wouldn't discount the value of cherry-picking verses!
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
There was no salvation in the OT because Christ's blood had not been shed yet.
Even the temple sacrifices were only for past sins and temporary.
Justification was in the Old Testament, but it is not salvation.
Justification was contingent upon obedience to the law in the OT.
Salvation is not by works as the Catholic Church teaches. It is by grace through faith and repentance. Then once saved always saved.
Born-again is instantaneous upon repentance. Sanctification is a lifelong process.
There are no degrees of salvation. You're either saved or not. But there are degrees of rewards.
Even the temple sacrifices were only for past sins and temporary.
Justification was in the Old Testament, but it is not salvation.
Justification was contingent upon obedience to the law in the OT.
Salvation is not by works as the Catholic Church teaches. It is by grace through faith and repentance. Then once saved always saved.
Born-again is instantaneous upon repentance. Sanctification is a lifelong process.
There are no degrees of salvation. You're either saved or not. But there are degrees of rewards.
In the OT, Abraham was justified (declared righteous) by faith...Genesis 15:6. (See also Isaiah 51:1-2 and Habakkuk 2:4 (kjv)).
So you are positing that justification does not = salvation.
Much of the assurance in the Bible of salvation is thus stripped away by your theology.
re #482.
@CoreIssue.
So you are positing that justification does not = salvation.
Much of the assurance in the Bible of salvation is thus stripped away by your theology.
re #482.
@CoreIssue.
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CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
None is stripped away.
In the Old Testament there was the promise of salvation to the justified, not the fulfillment of it.
You cannot be saved without the blood of Christ.
No Old Testament saints was born again until Christ resurrected.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Yes, I've been taught that the O.T. saints were looking forward in faith for their Messiah.
Those who had faith in the coming Messiah in the OT were placed in Abraham's bosom; where they waited for Jesus to descend and then lead them captive to heaven when He ascended (per Ephesians 4:8, Psalms 68:18).
Now, for those who are justified after the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, there is no stay in Abraham's bosom (per 2 Corinthians 5:8).
Therefore justification = salvation, today.
It meant salvation then also, because their eternal destiny was secured by their faith.
Now, for those who are justified after the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, there is no stay in Abraham's bosom (per 2 Corinthians 5:8).
Therefore justification = salvation, today.
It meant salvation then also, because their eternal destiny was secured by their faith.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Justification and sanctification are both components of salvation.
Salvation is being born again. When saved we are sanctified, meaning set apart for Christ and grow in sanctification.
I was speaking in the terms of the Old Testament where some claim justification is salvation when it is not.
A born-again believer can do something that in the OT would take away their justification.
That's why it is so critical to make it clear in the discussion of what time period is at issue.
In the OT someone who is justified one day may not be another.
Even in the NT, the prodigal son, while still a son, out in the pigpen, was both dead and lost. But it was very likely foreknown that he would return to his father. Thus he was a prodigal, and justified, so that he was inevitably glorified (Romans 8:30); because he was foreknown and thereby predestined (Romans 8:29).
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
I don't think either one of them was justified in the first place.
I believe Jesus chose Judas to be His disciple because it was foreordained that He should die on the Cross; and someone had to betray Him. Judas was a devil (John 6:70-71).
Balaam was a false prophet from the beginning; who used occultic means to gain contact with the LORD.
Any other examples that you can think of?
Abraham was justified by faith (Genesis 15:6). And it is a principle of scripture (Romans 8:30) that those who are truly justified will be glorified; and that this glorification is so indeed certain that it is related to us in the past tense. Therefore, since those who are justified shall obtain a glorified body, their salvation is both secure and certain.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
You are using New Testament to try to prove your point in the Old Testament. You cannot do that on an issue like this. You have to get your proof from the OT.
Says who? You? All scripture is given by inspiration of the Lord and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness...
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
But you're quoting church context and trying to apply it to Israel context. That don't fly.
