Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

[OzSpen]

And why do you think He doesn't offer this gift out to everyone?

Jane,

God DOES offer salvation to ALL. We know this from passages such as:

• 1 John 2:2 (NIV), 'He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world'.
• Titus 2:11 (HCSB), 'For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people'. See my article that explains this verse: How to interpret ‘appeared’ in Titus 2:11.

As my exposition has attempted to show, the grace of God has appeared, offering salvation for all people.

This verse does not teach universalism, but shows that God's grace of salvation has been extended to all people.

Why then are ALL not saved?

What is God's desire? 1 Tim 2:3-4 states: 'This is good, and it pleases God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth' (HCJB).

What stops people from coming, when the grace of God has been extended to all people?

• God commands all to repent (Acts 17:30);
• God commands all to believe (Acts 16:31).

It would be deceptive of God to command all to repent and believe when salvation was not provided for everyone.

God's grace is not irresistible as Calvinists and Co believe, but God's grace enables people to have free will (the power of alternate choice) to repent or refuse repentance; to believe or go on in godlessness.

The issue boils down to this, as I see it:

1. In Christ's death, God has made salvation available to all.
2. Through choice, many reject both repentance and faith.

That's why Scripture can teach:

• 'Many are called, but few are chosen' (Matt 20:16);
• Only those elected to salvation would believe (Acts 13:48);
• However, God desires all people to believe (1 Pet 3:9).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Another way of stating this: faith is no simply saying "oh yeah, I love God" and then continuing kiss Satan's feet. Rather, faith is about giving your entire self-- you heart, your mind, your might, your soul, to Him. It is all done continually through God's power.

Jane,

Putting faith in Christ is a total commitment to him - and continuation of believing.

Take John 3:36 as an example:

Whoever believes [continues believing] in the Son has [continues having] eternal life; whoever does not obey [continues not obeying] the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains [continues remaining] on him.​

What I've place in square brackets [ ] is the meaning of that present tense verb in Greek. Tenses in Greek refer to the kind of action, the present tense indicating continuous or continual action.

For me to be saved, I must continually believe in Jesus the Son (with the Holy Spirit's help). Then I'll continue to have eternal life because I continue to obey Jesus.

Those who continue to disobey Jesus [in their godlessness] will not see eternal life in the present and into the future. Instead they continuously experience God's wrath.

I don't like OSAS language because it suggests believing once and then not continuing to believe. I'm convinced the better biblical language is 'perseverance of the saints':

• 1 Cor 15:2, 'By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain';
• Matt 24:13 (NIV): 'but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved'. In context, this verse is from Jesus' Olivet Discourse to his disciples and specifically refers to enduring / standing firm through persecution.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

So did God cause them to refuse to believe, or was that their own doing? Just like you refuse to believe Scripture even when it is presented to you. That's your own stubbornness, since God wants people to believe His Word.

Enoch,

We get a glimpse of the human responsibility in unbelief in God in Romans 1:18-25 (NIV):

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen (emphasis added).​

When 'they' reject God and the evidence for God in creation, then God gives people over to their sinfulness.

God doesn't let human beings off the hook when His grace in salvation is extended to all people (1 Jn 2:2; Titus 2:11).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Faith is NOT simply “believing” – and Scripture is explicitly clear about that.

Faith = Belief + Obedience (Works).

James is adamant about this by telling his readers that just “believing” doesn’t make you any better off than the DEMONS (James 2:19). He goes on to describe what TRUE faith is – and it includes action (James 2:14-26).

BoL,

Faith and belief in the Greek language are the same word, pistis.

Let's check what James 2:14-20 (NLT) teaches:

14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?

17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

18 Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”

19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. 20 How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?​

This section teaches:

• Faith the is not followed by actions is not saving faith (v. 14). However, actions follow faith; they do not precede faith.
  
• What kinds of actions? The example given is ministering food or clothing to a Christian in need (vv 15-16).
• Unless faith produces good deeds it is 'dead and useless' (v 17). So, a person does not have genuine faith if it is not followed by good works. James is clear that actions come AFTER faith to demonstrate faith's genuineness.
• How can I show my faith in Christ for salvation? 'I will show you my faith by my good deeds' (v. 18). If a Christian is not doing good deeds, then the faith is not genuine. James is definite that good deeds demonstrate faith - AFTER faith for salvation.
• Having faith in one God (without actions) is what the demons have and that is not genuine belief (v. 19).
• 'faith without good deeds is useless', i.e. we have useless faith if not followed by good deeds (v. 20).

James is not teaching that faith alone in Jesus Christ alone does not bring salvation. He teaches that genuine faith is demonstrated by actions.

I ask all of us: What good deeds of ministering food and clothing to Christians and non-Christians have you done in the last month?

Oz

 

[Nancy]

BoL,

Faith and belief in the Greek language are the same word, pistis.

Let's check what James 2:14-20 (NLT) teaches:

14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?

17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

18 Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”

19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. 20 How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?​

This section teaches:

• Faith the is not followed by actions is not saving faith (v. 14). However, actions follow faith; they do not precede faith.
  
• What kinds of actions? The example given is ministering food or clothing to a Christian in need (vv 15-16).
• Unless faith produces good deeds it is 'dead and useless' (v 17). So, a person does not have genuine faith if it is not followed by good works. James is clear that actions come AFTER faith to demonstrate faith's genuineness.
• How can I show my faith in Christ for salvation? 'I will show you my faith by my good deeds' (v. 18). If a Christian is not doing good deeds, then the faith is not genuine. James is definite that good deeds demonstrate faith - AFTER faith for salvation.
• Having faith in one God (without actions) is what the demons have and that is not genuine belief (v. 19).
• 'faith without good deeds is useless', i.e. we have useless faith if not followed by good deeds (v. 20).

James is not teaching that faith alone in Jesus Christ alone does not bring salvation. He teaches that genuine faith is demonstrated by actions.

I ask all of us: What good deeds of ministering food and clothing to Christians and non-Christians have you done in the last month?

Oz

Good works, as such, can also be done by many unsaved people. Some of the kindest and most generous people I have known have been unsaved. I believe people are born with their own "personal" nature (apart from the sin nature) or, maybe I should use the word personality, there are those who are naturally kind and gentle, then there are those who are more on the gruff side. So, have you witnessed in yourself, since becoming saved, a desire to serve other people that you never had before? In turn of course, God is served. And, I will not answer your last question

 

[OzSpen]

Good works, as such, can also be done by many unsaved people. Some of the kindest and most generous people I have known have been unsaved. I believe people are born with their own "personal" nature (apart from the sin nature) or, maybe I should use the word personality, there are those who are naturally kind and gentle, then there are those who are more on the gruff side. So, have you witnessed in yourself, since becoming saved, a desire to serve other people that you never had before? In turn of course, God is served. And, I will not answer your last question

Nancy,

I agree that there are some non-Christians who do good works to others - generally to friends and not enemies. However, what motive drives them.

I agree that different people have different personalities. If you got to know me, you'd find I'm not a bubbly, experiential personality. However, my sister is.

I'm more serious in my personality. Then when God adds a teaching / apologetics' gift to that personality, I have something else happening.

I could give you a couple personal examples of non-Christians to whom I'm ministering, but to dwell on that would sound prideful.

Oz

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Calvin did not teach limited Atonement. It is a bible doctrine that complies with salvation by grace. Universal atonement = salvation by works.

What does grace mean to you? Maybe that definition is what has you on this particular path.

We also disagree that faith is only a fruit of the Spirit, so you must first have the Spirit to have faith. It's also a gift from the Father. The Ten Commandments were to show us our sin, to bring us to Christ. That is before having the Spirit.

I know it makes sense to you, but you have to disregard many scriptures to come to your conclusion. I have found that the TRUTH is a tight mosaic of all Scripture. No missing pieces.

 

[Dave L]

What does grace mean to you? Maybe that definition is what has you on this particular path.

We also disagree that faith is only a fruit of the Spirit, so you must first have the Spirit to have faith. It's also a gift from the Father. The Ten Commandments were to show us our sin, to bring us to Christ. That is before having the Spirit.

I know it makes sense to you, but you have to disregard many scriptures to come to your conclusion. I have found that the TRUTH is a tight mosaic of all Scripture. No missing pieces.

1> grace means total forgiveness and restoration at a time when we hate God most. But before God can forgive and restore, he must pay completely for our sin. This he did in Christ on the cross. Since the atonement actually saves sinners, God limited it to an arbitrarily chosen group who would be identified by their faith in Christ.

2> People are so sinful they cannot discern the true Christ. They only believe in idols they construct from scripture bearing his name. So God regenerates his people revealing Christ to them and spawning faith, a fruit of regeneration (the New Birth) in them.

3> The Ten Commandments were temporary off shoots of the eternal Two Great Commandments. Since the wicked cannot love, the Ten Commandments forced them to act "lovingly" under threat of death while harnessing their greed in rewarding obedience (1 Timothy 1:9–10).

The holy Spirit convicts us of our sin through the Two Great Commandments written in every heart. People know how they want others to treat them. But nobody does this, incurring God's wrath. But when awakened in the New Birth, the Two Great Commandments become the rule of life as we love God and others, even enemies, as our own-selves.

 

[Nancy]

Nancy,

I agree that there are some non-Christians who do good works to others - generally to friends and not enemies. However, what motive drives them.

I agree that different people have different personalities. If you got to know me, you'd find on not a bubbly, experiential personality. I'm more serious in my personality. Then when God adds a teaching / apologetics' gift to that personality, I have something else happening.

I could give you a couple personal examples of non-Christians to whom I'm ministering, but to dwell on that would sound prideful.

Oz

"I could give you a couple personal examples of non-Christians to whom I'm ministering, but to dwell on that would sound prideful. "
I hear you , I do not think we should be tooting our own horn, ever. I enjoy helping others and am so grateful God has changed me in that way. He turned me upside down! Lol. My attitude B.C. was something like "I work all day everyday at a highly stressful job! Not paid nearly enough so why should I give anything to someone who will not work for their money?? Well, hahaha-NOW, I see it all differently, God HAS softened my heart as my whole attitude has changed and I now have empathy for many of these folk and have heard some pretty horrid stories about their lives and, their are also some who just drank their lives away and now have nothing in their lives so...I thought, God does not want you to look at THEIR sin and shortcomings look at your own! And, to help these people, it is Gods will we do these things and it should matter not whence they come ♥
Good post, ty Oz.

 

[Taken]

Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

For Who? The Universe, even the World has spirits in addition to mankind.

Atonement meaning Reparations?
BY WHOM to WHOM and of What?

 

[Dave L]

Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

For Who? The Universe, even the World has spirits in addition to mankind.

Atonement meaning Reparations?
BY WHOM to WHOM and of What?

“By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;” (1 Corinthians 15:2–3)

 

[1stCenturyLady]

1> grace means total forgiveness and restoration at a time when we hate God most. But before God can forgive and restore, he must pay completely for our sin. This he did in Christ on the cross. Since the atonement actually saves sinners, God limited it to an arbitrarily chosen group who would be identified by their faith in Christ.

2> People are so sinful they cannot discern the true Christ. They only believe in idols they construct from scripture bearing his name. So God regenerates his people revealing Christ to them and spawning faith, a fruit of regeneration (the New Birth) in them.

3> The Ten Commandments were temporary off shoots of the eternal Two Great Commandments. Since the wicked cannot love, the Ten Commandments forced them to act "lovingly" under threat of death while harnessing their greed in rewarding obedience (1 Timothy 1:9–10).

The holy Spirit convicts us of our sin through the Two Great Commandments written in every heart. People know how they want others to treat them. But nobody does this, incurring God's wrath. But when awakened in the New Birth, the Two Great Commandments become the rule of life as we love God and others, even enemies, as our own-selves.

So I discern you also believe in the "T" of T.U.L.I.P? So, seeing as we are friends, I'll ask you a question about "T" that no one has answered for me yet. Do Calvinists believe the total depravity remains even after they accept Jesus?

 

[bbyrd009]

zing

but you have to disregard many scriptures to come to your conclusion.

you can even post them and see this In Living Color i guess

 

[Dave L]

So I discern you also believe in the "T" of T.U.L.I.P? So, seeing as we are friends, I'll ask you a question about "T" that no one has answered for me yet. Do Calvinists believe the total depravity remains even after they accept Jesus?

After the New Birth, we battle the flesh (mind/soul) that is enslaved to the cravings of the body. But we renew our mind with the word so this battle lessens in time.

Sometimes we fail and sin externally but remorse sits in and God also chastises us. But we always repent seeking a return of the joy and happiness of the Holy Spirit.

After a while, and with practice, we learn to avoid external sin but our main battle remains with sinful thoughts and imaginations. These remain as temptation and not sin so long as we don't give in to them or entertain them.

Based on this, here's my approach to walking in the Spirit.

“Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.” (2 Corinthians 10:5–6)

We censor every impure thought or imagination. And change the channel in our thinking on any thought that does not conform to obedience to Christ.

And we replace it with:

“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.” (Philippians 4:8)

Knowing Jesus is God and God is love. So Jesus is lord of our lives when love rules our thoughts and actions.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

After the New Birth, we battle the flesh (mind/soul) that is enslaved to the cravings of the body. But we renew our mind with the word so this battle lessens in time.

Sometimes we fail and sin externally but remorse sits in and God also chastises us. But we always repent seeking a return of the joy and happiness of the Holy Spirit.

After a while, and with practice, we learn to avoid external sin but our main battle remains with sinful thoughts and imaginations. These remain as temptation and not sin so long as we don't give in to them or entertain them.

Based on this, here's my approach to walking in the Spirit.

“Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.” (2 Corinthians 10:5–6)

We censor every impure thought or imagination. And change the channel in our thinking on any thought that does not conform to obedience to Christ.

And we replace it with:

“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.” (Philippians 4:8)

Knowing Jesus is God and God is love. So Jesus is lord of our lives when love rules our thoughts and actions.

Thank you. So then you believe nothing more happens than going from total depravity to partial depravity?

God is holy. How can we be saved if there is any sin left. Without holiness, no man shall see God, Hebrews 12:14. 1 John 3:5 "Jesus was manifest to TAKE AWAY our sin, and in Him there is no sin." Romans 6:2 "we are dead to sin." Romans 8:9 But we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in us. 1 John 3:9, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

 

[Helen]

What does grace mean to you?

I like Strong's.
Grace = God's ability in you, to do what you cannot do.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I like Strong's.
Grace = God's ability in you, to do what you cannot do.

I like Acts 4:33 that equates grace with power. To see that correlation you would have to know something about Hebrew writing styles. In this case, "great power"/"great grace" called "doubling" or "parallelism."

Thus grace is the power of God in you to be righteous. (Not by our own strength or works, but by His through us)

 

[Dave L]

Thank you. So then you believe nothing more happens than going from total depravity to partial depravity?

God is holy. How can we be saved if there is any sin left. Without holiness, no man shall see God, Hebrews 12:14. 1 John 3:5 "Jesus was manifest to TAKE AWAY our sin, and in Him there is no sin." Romans 6:2 "we are dead to sin." Romans 8:9 But we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in us. 1 John 3:9, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

No, we have the wicked flesh we battle in thoughts and imaginations. But it remains temptation and not sin unless we cater to it. So it is more like John says;

“Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God.” (1 John 3:9–10) I used the NLT for clarity.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No, we have the wicked flesh we battle in thoughts and imaginations. But it remains temptation and not sin unless we cater to it. So it is more like John says;

“Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God.” (1 John 3:9–10) I used the NLT for clarity.

Except 1 John 3:9 is not practice, but commit. This is why we MUST be born again, and not still carry the old sinful flesh you are talking about. We MUST be born of the Spirit through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Only then do we no longer battle the sinful flesh. We can still choose, but we choose righteousness because that is what we love.

Those who still battle the flesh have never been born again of the Spirit.

 

[Taken]

Except 1 John 3:9 is not practice, but commit. This is why we MUST be born again, and not still carry the old sinful flesh you are talking about. We MUST be born of the Spirit through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Only then do we no longer battle the sinful flesh. We can still choose, but we choose righteousness because that is what we love.

Those who still battle the flesh have never been born again of the Spirit.

Correct.

"Not make a practice" and "can't"....

Both do not apply TO:
A born again man.

Born Again men Can't Sin anymore, By Gods Power.

Jews under the Law, should not make practice of sin, By their own power.

Those who Lack understanding should use their two ears rather than their one mouth.

God Bless,
Taken