Losing Your Salvation - Bible Verses

[Gottservant]

Which law? ("the Law")
The law given only to the Israelites through Moses? or... ???

Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L) - What's the difference between the law and God's law? - What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law? The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things. Agree, or disagree? Points...

www.christianityboard.com

"The Law" meaning 'the whole of the Law'.

The Mosaic Law, but also the Law written on our hearts (as believers).

It should not come as a surprise that people want to obey the Law, that's the Law.

 

[atpollard]

But the OSAS peoples claim that even if one were to NOT keep the faith... it's all good cause they'll go to Heaven anyway.

Not THIS Particular Baptist. My Preservation of the Saints will not support that, but it will support ETERNAL SECURITY for all who are In Christ.

 

[Gottservant]

I think the point is more that the Devil can't take your faith away.

On the other hand, if you don't want it (your faith) God is not going to force it on you.

Once you run into the Devil, you will realise your faith is worth something after all!

 

[St. SteVen]

It should not come as a surprise that people want to obey the Law, that's the Law.

Well, it comes as a surprise to me. But I have a different view of these things, I suppose.

Galatians 2:21 NIV
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could
be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Galatians 5:4 NIV
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ;
you have fallen away from grace.

 

[St. SteVen]

The Mosaic Law, but also the Law written on our hearts (as believers).

Do you wear tassels? Just as binding as the Sabbath. It's "Mosaic Law", as you say.

 

[Gottservant]

Well, it comes as a surprise to me. But I have a different view of these things, I suppose.

Galatians 2:21 NIV
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could
be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Galatians 5:4 NIV
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ;
you have fallen away from grace.

I did not say obeying the Law created righteousness or justification, just that it was not a surprise. Power over the curse of the Law, attracts. Attraction in the Law requires obedience; obedience in turn eliminates resistance.

This is what Jesus is trying to reach us with: resistance in the Law, leads through the Lord. "I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfil" (Matthew 5:17). Responding to Christ outside the Law, creates thirst for the Lord despite the Law.

Being justified in righteousness despite the Law, then, is a strength we can develop - because of resistance to the Law. Just like a body-builder builds up muscle; the body-builder doesn't get strong because he drinks protein shakes, but because he uses weight to break up weaker muscle until his spirit is able to cause greater muscle to grow.

We should be inspired to resist the Law and have peace about Grace despite the Law.

If people see that (if someone sees the body-builder's body, for example) it should be no surprise that it makes obedience look worthwhile.

So if you want to dissuade people from considering that something looks worthwhile, do you not need to point to something that is more worthwhile? That is Grace, but not only that it is Christ's Grace.

The sooner you distinguish between Grace and Christ's Grace, the better off we all will be!

 

[St. SteVen]

I did not say obeying the Law created righteousness or justification, just that it was not a surprise. Power over the curse of the Law, attracts. Attraction in the Law requires obedience; obedience in turn eliminates resistance.

What?
No idea what you are trying to say.

This is what Jesus is trying to reach us with: resistance in the Law, leads through the Lord. "I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfil" (Matthew 5:17). Responding to Christ outside the Law, creates thirst for the Lord despite the Law.

That's a misquote.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets..."
Compare below. After Jesus' resurrection he explained what he meant in Matthew 5:17.
Nothing to do with "the law".

Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Being justified in righteousness despite the Law, then, is a strength we can develop - because of resistance to the Law. Just like a body-builder builds up muscle; the body-builder doesn't get strong because he drinks protein shakes, but because he uses weight to break up weaker muscle until his spirit is able to cause greater muscle to grow.

What?
"Being justified in righteousness despite the Law, then, is a strength we can develop..." ????

We should be inspired to resist the Law and have peace about Grace despite the Law.

Resist the Law?
"... have peace about Grace despite the Law." ????

If people see that (if someone sees the body-builder's body, for example) it should be no surprise that it makes obedience look worthwhile.

Seriously? - LOL

So if you want to dissuade people from considering that something looks worthwhile, do you not need to point to something that is more worthwhile? That is Grace, but not only that it is Christ's Grace.

Right, grace NOT law.

The sooner you distinguish between Grace and Christ's Grace, the better off we all will be!

Wait...
What's the difference between "Grace and Christ's Grace"?

 

[Gottservant]

[...]


Right, grace NOT law.


Wait...
What's the difference between "Grace and Christ's Grace"?

The Holy Spirit has opened up your mind! Now let Him speak! Ask Him: "what is Christ's Grace?"

 

[St. SteVen]

The Holy Spirit has opened up your mind! Now let Him speak! Ask Him: "what is Christ's Grace?"

I know what grace is.
"Christ's Grace" is nowhere to be found in the Bible.
If God tells me what it is, it will extrabiblical revelation.
Is that what you want?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Not THIS Particular Baptist. My Preservation of the Saints will not support that, but it will support ETERNAL SECURITY for all who are In Christ.

That's a fancy way of saying "even if one lives in sin, they will still go to Heaven"

It's just more double speak.

I think the point is more that the Devil can't take your faith away.

According to Jesus (see Mark 4:13-20), the devil can do what he did to Adam and Eve which is claim God's Word is not true and if one believes the devil's lies (allows his lies to enter in) then it chokes God's Word out of the person's life and no longer bares fruit.

This simple means one can decide to follow satan's word (his lies) and reject God's Word (Truth) which is turning away from walking with and being in agreement with the Lord to... walking with and being in agreement with the devil.

This is EXACTLY what Adam and Eve did and it caused them to be corrupt which is to be separated from God because of their sin. Romans 8:13 says the same thing for Christians, but the false teachers are claiming if one sins they won't become corrupt which is what satan told Adam and Eve!

The false teachers believe that Jesus went to the Cross to make the lies of the devil to become truth where we do not reap what we sow, that the wages of sin is not spiritual death, and this is mocking God according to Gal 6:7,8!

This is yet another way we know that OSAS, aka eternal security is false doctrine because it agrees with what satan told Adam and Eve which is.... you can sin against God and you will not die spiritually!

 

[marks]

Who is it who believes the born again may yet be condemned for sin and lost?

If that were true, then God would be a liar.

Hebrews 12:6-11 KJV
6) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10) For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11) Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

The plain sayings of Scripture, if you will only believe, then you can put this to rest.

Much love!

 

[atpollard]

That's a fancy way of saying "even if one lives in sin, they will still go to Heaven"

It's just more double speak.

You are engaging in Double Speak. You are saying the equivalent of "If God can do anything, can He sin? and If God cannot sin, then God cannot do anything." Then throwing up your hands in victory.

However, it is the "Married Bachelor" fallacy. You are proposing something that cannot exist because it is self-contradictory. One CANNOT both be "born again", made a "new creation", be "indwelt by the Holy Spirit" AND continue to live in sin. That is an impossibility (like a married bachelor). So for you to claim that OSAS advocates that people can remain in their sin and still go to heaven is simply not true. One is transformed or one is not. One is not "partially pregnant" (no matter what a person may claim).

If they live in sin they are NOT SAVED, so "once saved" does not apply to them and "always saved" becomes a moot point. Nobody claims that the unsaved are always saved [Well, the UNIVERSALIST do, but we are not them.]

Do you claim that only those that live lives of SINLESS PERFECTION are saved?
How can you justify your answer given how you reject Eternal Security?
Why does just one sin not disqualify you from heaven?

 

[marks]

Do you claim that only those that live lives of SINLESS PERFECTION are saved?

It's a big ego-booster for the one who says it. The biggest "virtue signalling" of all. Maybe some need that little self-affirmation to feel complete.

Meanwhile, John answers this so very simply,

1 John 2:1 KJV
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Hebrews tells us more,

Hebrews 7:24-25 KJV
24) But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Much love!

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Who is it who believes the born again may yet be condemned for sin and lost?

If that were true, then God would be a liar.

God's Word teaches one can fall away from the Lord.... not sure why anybody would want to call God a liar... that doesn't end well and creates strife between themselves and the Lord.

You are engaging in Double Speak.

That's what all the false teachers claim for those that go by what God';s Word teaches rather than the calvinist / reformed theology fake gospel

Here's a few verse you canNOT explain away as one that favors being able to continue in sin and still be in right standing with the Lord...

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 1:6
if we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1 John 2:1
I write these things unto you, that ye sin not

 

[marks]

God's Word teaches one can fall away from the Lord.... not sure why anybody would want to call God a liar... that doesn't end well and creates strife between themselves and the Lord.

You didn't address my post. Are you having some cherry picking issues? Do you wish to avoid this passage?

If you deny the simple and plain and contextual truth of this passage, well, you know what that would mean.

Hebrews 12:6-11 KJV
6) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10) For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11) Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

The plain sayings of Scripture, if you will only believe, then you can put this to rest.

Much love!

 

[atpollard]

Here's a few verse you canNOT explain away as one that favors being able to continue in sin and still be in right standing with the Lord...

Apparently you didn't bother to read my post ... I SAID that "continue in sin" AND "be in right standing" was a self-contradictory physical impossibility. How then can I be advocating something that I claim is impossible to exist.

"continue in sin" = NOT SAVED.
Not Saved = Not Saved, so there is no "Always" to discuss.

SAVED = SAVED = NOT continue in sin (Ephesians 2:10) because God is at work INSIDE us (Philippians 2:13), so we have ASSURANCE of our salvation [ETERNAL life, not life until God drops us like a hot potato].

 

[marks]

You are engaging in Double Speak. You are saying the equivalent of "If God can do anything, can He sin? and If God cannot sin, then God cannot do anything." Then throwing up your hands in victory.

I see many out of context quotes, and poor logic, false equivalencies, very poor arguments in my opinion. Just because you can post half a verse that says the words you want doesn't mean you've shared Scriptural truth.

Much love!

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Hebrews 12:6-11

This verse does not negate God's Warnings that man can lose their salvation.

Sure he'll try and get people to come back, but the wages of sin is still death even as you choose to cherry pick that way... it's still true because what we reap IS what we sow. You cannot explain that way no matter how hard you try.

How come you did not high light this portion of Hebrews 12:6-11 ???

Hebrews 12:8
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Some Christians go back in to sin and refuse the Lord's correction... and are no longer legitimate children of God... hence the part about being bastards.

Here's another one you cannot explain away...

Proverbs 1:23-33
Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

Those that "turn away" do not end well at all...

 

[atpollard]

This verse does not negate God's Warnings that man can lose their salvation.

Sure he'll try and get people to come back, but the wages of sin is still death even as you choose to cherry pick that way... it's still true because what we reap IS what we sow. You cannot explain that way no matter how hard you try.

How come you did not high light this portion of Hebrews 12:6-11 ???

Hebrews 12:8
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Some Christians go back in to sin and refuse the Lord's correction... and are no longer legitimate children of God... hence the part about being bastards.

Here's another one you cannot explain away...

Proverbs 1:23-33
Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

Those that "turn away" do not end well at all...

You should really read the Parable of the Tares.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

You should really read the Parable of the Tares.

Hebrews 12:8, and Proverbs 1:23-33 reflect the truths found in the Parable of the Tares

You must have not noticed...

John 15:5
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

It's very clear the OSAS is in fact false doctrine.... sorry to be the bearer of bad news homie!