Love who?

[lukethreesix]

Side step? I answered your question!


You said, " Hang on a minute. Your saying that as my knowledge in the word progresses one day I will be shown that all I have learnt through the spirit was actually wrong..."
This, to me, sounds like you don't believe that knowledge can progress. So, can it?

 

[Madad21]

There were burning coals on the altar in the temple (Lev 16:12). Because we are the temple of God, there are coals or burning coals within us too. Others (our "enemies") are a temple of God as well. The passage indicates that the act of kindness is like us giving burning coals to another. In that, if their coals are not burning, our burning coal will kindle the coals in them. Or, if their coals are weakly burning, our burning coal will strengthen the fire within them. Burning coals in the temple seem to be a "good" thing and part of normal temple operations.

We are the temple, so they should be burning in us. The heaping of coals is beneficial, not "God's wrath".

You need to look at the scripture in context
Paul starts off by talking about us needing to love our enemies, which then leads directly in to the leaving of room for Gods wrath.
If that was not surposed to be a part of what he was talking about then why is it there?

This then leads in to his quote from Proverbs


Proverbs 25:21-22
New International Version (NIV)



[SIZE=.75em]21 [/SIZE]If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat;
if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.
[SIZE=.75em]22 [/SIZE]In doing this, you will heap burning coals[SIZE=.65em](A)[/SIZE] on his head,
and the Lord will reward you.[SIZE=.65em](B)[/SIZE]

So there is really only one natural conclusion to what Paul is saying here

I dont see how you got what you said from Leviticus 16-12


Leviticus 16:13
13 He is to put the incense on the fire before the Lord, and the smoke of the incense will conceal the atonement cover(A) above the tablets of the covenant law, so that he will not die.(B)



Numbers 16:46-50


[SIZE=.75em]46 [/SIZE]Then Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer[SIZE=.65em](A)[/SIZE] and put incense in it, along with burning coals from the altar, and hurry to the assembly[SIZE=.65em](B)[/SIZE] to make atonement[SIZE=.65em](C)[/SIZE] for them. Wrath has come out from theLord;[SIZE=.65em](D)[/SIZE] the plague[SIZE=.65em](E)[/SIZE] has started.” [SIZE=.75em]47 [/SIZE]So Aaron did as Moses said, and ran into the midst of the assembly. The plague had already started among the people,[SIZE=.65em](F)[/SIZE] but Aaron offered the incense and made atonement for them. [SIZE=.75em]48 [/SIZE]He stood between the living and the dead, and the plague stopped.[SIZE=.65em](G)[/SIZE][SIZE=.75em]49 [/SIZE]But 14,700 people died from the plague, in addition to those who had died because of Korah.[SIZE=.65em](H)[/SIZE][SIZE=.75em]50 [/SIZE]Then Aaron returned to Moses at the entrance to the tent of meeting, for the plague had stopped







It seems to me the only purpose of the hot coals in is in the use of burning incense, there is nothing said about the burning of incense in Pauls teaching

 

[lukethreesix]

Or are you going to side step?

 

[Madad21]

Side step? I answered your question!


You said, " Hang on a minute. Your saying that as my knowledge in the word progresses one day I will be shown that all I have learnt through the spirit was actually wrong..."
This, to me, sounds like you don't believe that knowledge can progress. So, can it?

You obviously read my comments like you read scripture,
How could you possibly get that from what I said? :huh:

 

[ajdiamond]

You need to look at the scripture in context
Paul starts off by talking about us needing to love our enemies, which then leads directly in to the leaving of room for Gods wrath.
If that was not surposed to be a part of what he was talking about then why is it there?

Yes, Paul is saying to love, be kind. Do not take revenge. Leave room for "God's wrath". Leave that to Him. Taking revenge would be you playacting God's wrath.

You, ON THE CONTRARY, be kind and overcome evil with good.
ON THE CONTRARY to taking matters into your own hands and taking revenge, be kind and love.
And in doing so you heap coals from your inner burning fire in your temple to the coal pile in their temple. Which is beneficial for them.

[SIZE=.75em]19 [/SIZE]Do not take revenge,[SIZE=.65em](G)[/SIZE] my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[SIZE=.65em][b][/SIZE][SIZE=.65em](H)[/SIZE]says the Lord. [SIZE=.75em]20 [/SIZE]On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him.......

 

[Madad21]

Or are you going to side step?

LOL, ok Lukethreesix good luck with that.

 

[lukethreesix]

Can knowledge and understanding of scripture progress and even change?
Will you answer that question?

 

[Madad21]

Yes, Paul is saying to love, be kind. Do not take revenge. Leave room for "God's wrath". Leave that to Him. Taking revenge would be you playacting God's wrath.

You, ON THE CONTRARY, be kind and overcome evil with good.
ON THE CONTRARY to taking matters into your own hands and taking revenge, be kind and love.
And in doing so you heap coals from your inner burning fire in your temple to the coal pile in their temple. Which is beneficial for them.

[SIZE=.75em]19 [/SIZE]Do not take revenge,[SIZE=.65em](G)[/SIZE] my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[SIZE=.65em][b][/SIZE][SIZE=.65em](H)[/SIZE]says the Lord. [SIZE=.75em]20 [/SIZE]On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him.......

Why do you patronise me by telling me to breathe?
Have I been patronizing toward you brother, was it necessary to say that?

I have not argued with what you have said except the Temple thing because you haven't shown me any scriptural evidence of what you say.
Im not going to take Pauls teaching out of context on hearsay, when the scripture simply doesnt read like that...at all.

Can knowledge and understanding of scripture progress and even change?
Will you answer that question?

Sigh!! Fine, if you want to keep playing this silly game I will answer.

Yes it can, Obviously (you cant see me but Im rolling my eyes)

But as I had referred I dont know how many times now, certainly not in the way you think it does, because that would be going backwards, Im sorry

 

[lukethreesix]

You only think its going backwards....understanding God is more loving and compassionate and merciful then we thought before is not going backwards. Knowing God is bringing His ENTIRE creation into perfect is a forward motion my friend.
Good luck back there.

 

[Madad21]

You only think its going backwards....understanding God is more loving and compassionate and merciful then we thought before is not going backwards. Knowing God is bringing His ENTIRE creation into perfect is a forward motion my friend.
Good luck back there.

Right now with that in mind can we get back to the topic.
You said "Knowing God is bringing His ENTIRE creation into perfect is a forward motion"

what are you implying is perfect forward motion?

 

[lukethreesix]

Forward motion is: coming to a better understanding of Gods character, which is Compassion, Loving-kindness, and Forgivness.

 

[Madad21]

Forward motion is: coming to a better understanding of Gods character, which is Compassion, Loving-kindness, and Forgivness.

Ok so say we already understand that, are these his only characteristics?

 

[lukethreesix]

Yes, He does nothing and is nothing outside of these.

 

[Madad21]

Yes, He does nothing and is nothing outside of these.

Ok what about Joy? does he show Joy?

Zephaniah 3:17


[SIZE=.75em]17 [/SIZE]The Lord your God is with you,
the Mighty Warrior who saves.[SIZE=.65em](A)[/SIZE]
He will take great delight[SIZE=.65em](B)[/SIZE] in you;
in his love he will no longer rebuke you,[SIZE=.65em](C)[/SIZE]
but will rejoice over you with singing.”[SIZE=.65em](D)[/SIZE]




what about Jealousy?
Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

and anger?
Romans 1:18 ESV
[SIZE=11pt]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]and hate?[/SIZE]
Psalm 5:4-6 ESV
For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you. The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.



So what about Gods anger compared to ours?
Romans 12:19-21
[SIZE=.75em]19 Do not take revenge,(G)[/SIZE] my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[SIZE=.65em][b][/SIZE][SIZE=.65em](H)[/SIZE]says the Lord. [SIZE=.75em]20 On the contrary:[/SIZE]



“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[SIZE=.65em][c][/SIZE][SIZE=.65em](I)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=.75em]21 [/SIZE]Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


So in answer to your question

If God hates His enemies, why should we love them?

Because Judgement is Gods, if we judge then we are no better then our enermies.

 

[lukethreesix]

I said OUTSIDE OF THESE! Anything God does, or anything God is, is done within His compassion, loving-kindness and grace. THAT INCLUDES His "Wrath"...

Now, If God only loves those who love Him, He is no better than a tax collector (according to Jesus in Matt 5)
What you're saying is that God has a different set of rules for Himself, where _He doesn't lead by example, but instead is like a father that says to his son, "Do as I say boy, not as I do."
NO, Jesus said, "I can only DO AS I SEE my father doing." Jesus was lead by example, we too are lead by example. God does not tell us to do one thing, while He does something completely different.

 

[Madad21]

I said OUTSIDE OF THESE! Anything God does, or anything God is, is done within His compassion, loving-kindness and grace. THAT INCLUDES His "Wrath"...

Now, If God only loves those who love Him, He is no better than a tax collector (according to Jesus in Matt 5)

Ok, I wasn't arguing with that.

There is a major difference between our anger and Gods anger.
We are told to forgive others as we have been forgiven.
Our anger is pride based and our want for revenge is for our own glory.
But Gods is a righteous anger, which burn against all that is evil.

Matt 5 falls in to the only God can judge category. We are told to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. well as close to it as we can get anyway.
But God is still the only one who is perfect. So suffice to say he is still the only one who can judge.





On a side note and only if you have the time. can you provide some scripture reference that back up "Age during" as opposed to "eternity" in the NT.
I know the YLT uses it more often then other translations I have found.

That is if your not to up set with me, I personally find heated debate fun (but I think thats just me sometimes)
I like you though, I like how you embrace love over all, its a very good quality to have.

 

[lukethreesix]

Thanx Mad, The hotter the debate the better!
I would love to get into the eternity vs age-abiding debate because I think its the key to understanding Gods plan of reconciling ALL things. But I think if we change the topic Angelina will shut it down. So maybe I could make a post on my profile wall and you could comment, then we could go back and forth there so we ddon't get in trouble by the LAW.

 

[Madad21]

Thanx Mad, The hotter the debate the better!
I would love to get into the eternity vs age-abiding debate because I think its the key to understanding Gods plan of reconciling ALL things. But I think if we change the topic Angelina will shut it down. So maybe I could make a post on my profile wall and you could comment, then we could go back and forth there so we ddon't get in trouble by the LAW.

I dont see why, it occurs in the YLT 174 times and its a theological debate.
I was just going through a few odds and bobs and found a few differing points of veiw on the topic. like the Hebrew "[SIZE=11pt]Owlam" in the OT verses the Greek "[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Aiōnios " in the New.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]A discussion based [/SIZE]loosely[SIZE=11pt] around 2 [/SIZE]Corinthians 4:17–18 and the use of the Greek "Aiōnios" etc etc etc blah blah blah.

I think that would fall under the category of debate or study.

besides I think Ange knows I wont put up with any of your funny business

actually I might start the debate, i will put it in the study section, it will be nice to get any other points of veiw.

 

[lukethreesix]

Its not the topic that she would shut down, but she and another "MOD" have deleted comments and even shut down topics that "change coarse"....but YES! Start it up and I will join in on the fun. If you like heat, this topic will burn. Anytime I have ever defended the age definition of aion I get attacked big time! People want to think that we are eternal, but the fact is only God is eternal, He is the only one without a beginning or end. If you look up the word "ever" (aion) you will see it means an age. EVER-lasting means lasting the age, or age-abiding/age during.

 

[Madad21]

Its not the topic that she would shut down, but she and another "MOD" have deleted comments and even shut down topics that "change coarse"....but YES! Start it up and I will join in on the fun. If you like heat, this topic will burn. Anytime I have ever defended the age definition of aion I get attacked big time! People want to think that we are eternal, but the fact is only God is eternal, He is the only one without a beginning or end. If you look up the word "ever" (aion) you will see it means an age. EVER-lasting means lasting the age, or age-abiding/age during.

Done and done