Love Your Enemies

[jiggyfly]

Luke 6:35 "Love your enemies! Do good to them! Lend to them! And don't be concerned that they might not repay. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to the unthankful and to those who are wicked.


How does this scripture fit with the common eschatologies of today?

 

[HammerStone]

It doesn't fit nearly as well as it should.

Luke 6:27-31
“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

I've heard it said before that Christians are at their best when the times get tough. (IE: The old phrase, the tough get going.) Unfortunately we don't always live up to that. Part of the problem comes from not understanding the lessons of this passage. The focus is not on the earthly and the flesh, it's wholly upon the spiritual. You might not have a lot of money, maybe experience a good bit of sadness, etc. However, it is a part of life. If your primary concern becomes richness in this life...well...enjoy your reward.

The thing is about this passage that most miss is this is how Christians should handle their greatest duty. That is the duty to share the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit aka the gospel.

We all are most comfortable going to a place where folks agree pretty heartily with us. Take a look at any forum to see this in a microcosm. You have entire communities devoted to one way of thinking (or denomination) and then on others you have little sections that eventually need to be carved out so that like minds can come together. Notice in the above that these are all things that won't kill you or deeply wound you (unless you let them). When you start talking/preaching/espousing religion, some folks aren't going to like it. That's just a fact of life, you've probably run up against it by some point at this time. How we should handle this is outlined by Christ. Turn the other cheek; a slap, while insulting, doesn't kill you. If someone persecutes/absuses (as the ESV says here) you, keep on moving. I hear that p-word thrown around a bit. If someone vehemently disagreeing with you on a forum or in life is the worst persecution you'll see, count yourself blessed!

Now on the other hand I think some want to take this verse in the opposite direction that Christians must remain second class citizens and lovers of abuse. If one thinks that way, then the point is clearly missed. This passage does not, for instance, address extreme circumstances where true hurt or even death is involved. To take this verse and extend it onward is outside the Bible. Stick with context.

Something that goes unnoticed in many Christian circles is Christ just gave us the best way to make our case and plant that seed. To use an overused phrase, the most powerful ground is the moral high ground. When someone slaps you (insults you), immediately turning into a tit-for-tat match won't get you anywhere. Contrary to how you may feel, when two posters (as an example) argue and it begins to break down, most ignore both. You're just not going to make a case by persecuting the persecutor back, period. It's the old phrase your mother (and some of you mothers out there) have probably used: kill 'em with kindness. Have you ever noticed how you can totally change that counter clerk's attitude by issuing a smile and using polite language? That type of love is not just limited to places of commerce.

The type of love is Christian, because no matter how rude that person is, if you remain calm and collected, the Holy Spirit will work through you and the words you use may just very well stick with that person until the day when he or she sees the light. If those words are insults, do you think they'll stick with the person? Remember, we are to know the fruit but God will handle the chaff.

 

[jiggyfly]

My point was based on verse 35 " you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to the unthankful and to those who are wicked."


How does this fit in with endless torment or annhilation?

 

[HammerStone]

Ah, I knew there was an ulterior motive.

Matthew 8:29
And behold, they cried out, "What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?"

I make no secret of my disagreement with universal salvation and you make no secret of your agreement. However, I'll throw out a bone here because it's worth it for a constructive discussion.

It's just like the demons in Matthew 8:29 - that time of torment is coming. The is born out by the Greek word basanizō. You know what's really curious about this word, though? It's root is basanos, which the primary definition of this word is a touchstone used to test the purity of gold and/or silver. Basically you rub the stone against the metal and it tells you the purity. Jump back to basanizō. This remains the primary definition, although now it refers to the act. It's an excellent metaphor here because you have Christ (as the judge) standing before these demons and they're the ones who blurt it out.

See, it's like an unruly young child. They might do something mischievous or wrong, and then when the adult (parent, teacher, etc.) walks into the room and puts a little pressure on them, they come up and out with it. Jumping back to the purity reference, recall that our Father is the great refiner. He's effectively that stone that determines purity. It's not that the stone (God) wishes to destroy anyone or prove them impure - at the point of the comment only a single soul stands convicted and sentenced to destruction. It's that the demons prove themselves impure and they'll frankly be done away with at his coming because they don't have a leg to stand on in that righteous fire. It's not that the bad apples are bad; it's that they know better and yet still do it anyway. The devils believe, they know who the Son of God is but they'll continue right on to the time of basanizō, which will be torment for them fully of their own volition.

 

[Irish]

Ah, I knew there was an ulterior motive.



I make no secret of my disagreement with universal salvation and you make no secret of your agreement. However, I'll throw out a bone here because it's worth it for a constructive discussion.

It's just like the demons in Matthew 8:29 - that time of torment is coming. The is born out by the Greek word basanizō. You know what's really curious about this word, though? It's root is basanos, which the primary definition of this word is a touchstone used to test the purity of gold and/or silver. Basically you rub the stone against the metal and it tells you the purity. Jump back to basanizō. This remains the primary definition, although now it refers to the act. It's an excellent metaphor here because you have Christ (as the judge) standing before these demons and they're the ones who blurt it out.

See, it's like an unruly young child. They might do something mischievous or wrong, and then when the adult (parent, teacher, etc.) walks into the room and puts a little pressure on them, they come up and out with it. Jumping back to the purity reference, recall that our Father is the great refiner. He's effectively that stone that determines purity. It's not that the stone (God) wishes to destroy anyone or prove them impure - at the point of the comment only a single soul stands convicted and sentenced to destruction. It's that the demons prove themselves impure and they'll frankly be done away with at his coming because they don't have a leg to stand on in that righteous fire. It's not that the bad apples are bad; it's that they know better and yet still do it anyway. The devils believe, they know who the Son of God is but they'll continue right on to the time of basanizō, which will be torment for them fully of their own volition.

You ever notice there are two groups that torment:

Rev 11
[sup]10[/sup]The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

Irish

 

[HammerStone]

I can say I have noticed that although admittedly probably have no prescribed huge importance or a lot of study to that fact.

As far as I am concerned, the truth hurts; there's going to be a heap of hurt to borrow a phrase when those souls wake up. It's not that YHVH enjoys torture, but that unrighteousness cannot handle absolute righteousness.

 

[jerryjohnson]

jiggyfly


Some times a 2 x 4 will show your love for an enemy, sometimes it's the EXIT sign.

 

[Irish]

Love your enemies....
This is one of those times when application can mislead so many. You can either see the interpretation or use an application. Say you are a commander in Iraq, do you tell your soldiers to drop their weapons and flak jackets and go love their enemy? You would have to be a complete idiot! So maybe we have to forget the wild applications and get down to the interpretation. This lesson is set squarely within the structure of the proclamation of the king, and is set to be understood within the same basic set of circumstances yet future. I don't think I have seen the proclamation subject dealt with here yet. Has it been?

Irish

 

[bling]

The Jews hated the Saritans and the samaritans hated the jews so we are to Love like the good samaritan.

 

[jiggyfly]

Ah, I knew there was an ulterior motive.



I make no secret of my disagreement with universal salvation and you make no secret of your agreement. However, I'll throw out a bone here because it's worth it for a constructive discussion.

It's just like the demons in Matthew 8:29 - that time of torment is coming. The is born out by the Greek word basanizō. You know what's really curious about this word, though? It's root is basanos, which the primary definition of this word is a touchstone used to test the purity of gold and/or silver. Basically you rub the stone against the metal and it tells you the purity. Jump back to basanizō. This remains the primary definition, although now it refers to the act. It's an excellent metaphor here because you have Christ (as the judge) standing before these demons and they're the ones who blurt it out.

See, it's like an unruly young child. They might do something mischievous or wrong, and then when the adult (parent, teacher, etc.) walks into the room and puts a little pressure on them, they come up and out with it. Jumping back to the purity reference, recall that our Father is the great refiner. He's effectively that stone that determines purity. It's not that the stone (God) wishes to destroy anyone or prove them impure - at the point of the comment only a single soul stands convicted and sentenced to destruction. It's that the demons prove themselves impure and they'll frankly be done away with at his coming because they don't have a leg to stand on in that righteous fire. It's not that the bad apples are bad; it's that they know better and yet still do it anyway. The devils believe, they know who the Son of God is but they'll continue right on to the time of basanizō, which will be torment for them fully of their own volition.

So why do you disagree with UR?

 

[Robinson Crusoe]

Love your enemies....
This is one of those times when application can mislead so many. You can either see the interpretation or use an application. Say you are a commander in Iraq, do you tell your soldiers to drop their weapons and flak jackets and go love their enemy? You would have to be a complete idiot! So maybe we have to forget the wild applications and get down to the interpretation. This lesson is set squarely within the structure of the proclamation of the king, and is set to be understood within the same basic set of circumstances yet future. I don't think I have seen the proclamation subject dealt with here yet. Has it been?

Irish

The Bible is full of God hating, but then we aren't supposed to hate everything. The Bible is full of God loving, but then we aren't supposed to love everything. Understanding that, takes maturity and most Americans, nowadays, are stuck in, perpetual adolescence.

 

[jiggyfly]

The Bible is full of God hating, but then we aren't supposed to hate everything. The Bible is full of God loving, but then we aren't supposed to love everything. Understanding that, takes maturity and most Americans, nowadays, are stuck in, perpetual adolescence.

Not just Americans, I would say most believers are infants and at best being taught by an adolescent.

 

[Brother Mike]

I would respond, but I am still hung up on the word.............. eschatologies

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

I would respond, but I am still hung up on the word.............. eschatologies

Jesus Is Lord.

I love honest, self-effacing men.

Miss Hepburn

 

[farouk]

I couldn't quite see the link to eschatology at first.

If Scripture is really teaching something, then it won't have to rely on somewhat obscure reasoning.

The Lord Jesus spoke far more about hell than about heaven. He warned people repeatedly.

 

[jiggyfly]

I couldn't quite see the link to eschatology at first.

If Scripture is really teaching something, then it won't have to rely on somewhat obscure reasoning.

The Lord Jesus spoke far more about hell than about heaven. He warned people repeatedly.

Or at least so says king James but according to some other translations and my own studies of some of the other Greek texts I would have to disagree. Jesus spoke of Ghenna the garbage dump out side of Jerusalem, but when it comes to hell referring to a place of endless torment and the like, well IMO it is just a product of mistranslation, misunderstanding and carnal imagination.

 

[farouk]

Or at least so says king James but according to some other translations and my own studies of some of the other Greek texts I would have to disagree. Jesus spoke of Ghenna the garbage dump out side of Jerusalem, but when it comes to hell referring to a place of endless torment and the like, well IMO it is just a product of mistranslation, misunderstanding and carnal imagination.

j:

Actually there is the sin question which is related to the reality of hell. That's is why we need the Savior.

 

[jiggyfly]

j:

Actually there is the sin question which is related to the reality of hell. That's is why we need the Savior.

And what might that reality be?

 

[farouk]

And what might that reality be?

j:

I decline to argue with you. You know what I mean. I hoped that what I wrote would be a blessing to you.

 

[jiggyfly]

j:

I decline to argue with you. You know what I mean. I hoped that what I wrote would be a blessing to you.

I am sorry farouk but but your statement is vague and I am not sure what you mean. Maybe you can elaborate.