Love Your Enemies

[Miss Hepburn]

I have absolutley no Bible references to back me up..

"There is only the "hell" we make for ourselves." One ounce of wanting to
repent or wanting something other than the hell we have created and the process begins
for our upliftment. (This present life and in the hereafter.)
There, I've said it.

It says nothing about TV in the Bible -but, wonders of wonders it exists. No scripture to back
it up. There, I've also expressed my boredom with all this -"back it up with scripture" stuff.

So, it is naturally a given that many would not even consider my above statement. Fine with me.

 

[Butch5]

Love your enemies....
This is one of those times when application can mislead so many. You can either see the interpretation or use an application. Say you are a commander in Iraq, do you tell your soldiers to drop their weapons and flak jackets and go love their enemy? You would have to be a complete idiot! So maybe we have to forget the wild applications and get down to the interpretation. This lesson is set squarely within the structure of the proclamation of the king, and is set to be understood within the same basic set of circumstances yet future. I don't think I have seen the proclamation subject dealt with here yet. Has it been?

Irish

Say you are a commander in Iraq, do you tell your soldiers to drop their weapons and flak jackets and go love their enemy?

If you were following Christ you would. But then again, if you were following Christ you would not be there to start with.

 

[HammerStone]

So what exactly do all of you do with the Old Testament? Did Christ who was ordained before this world began (I Peter 1:20) change? Did God only do battle in the OT forsaking it completely in the NT?

What about the commandment to buy a sword? Was that just for looks or for the protection of a God-man that could have twelve legion of angels at any given instant?

 

[Butch5]

So what exactly do all of you do with the Old Testament? Did Christ who was ordained before this world began (I Peter 1:20) change? Did God only do battle in the OT forsaking it completely in the NT?

What about the commandment to buy a sword? Was that just for looks or for the protection of a God-man that could have twelve legion of angels at any given instant?

The battles in the OT were for the protection of a geographical nation, Israel. Under the new covenant there is no geographical nation, the members of Christ's kingdom are from all geographical regions of the world.


Isaiah 2:1-5 ( KJV )
The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

According to Peter the last days were when Christ came. He applies the prophecy in Joel 2 to that day. Also Paul says, our weapons are not carnal but Spiritual.

The commandment to buy a sword was for an object lesson. As soon as Peter used that sword Christ rebuked him, telling him to put away the sword, saying, those who live by teh sword shall die by the sword. If you take notice you never again hear mention of the apostles having a sword. And as a matter of fact when Paul was stoned there were apostles present and Luke doesn't record anything out them helping to defend Paul.

 

[Robinson Crusoe]

I have absolutley no Bible references to back me up..

"There is only the "hell" we make for ourselves." One ounce of wanting to
repent or wanting something other than the hell we have created and the process begins
for our upliftment. (This present life and in the hereafter.)
There, I've said it.

It says nothing about TV in the Bible -but, wonders of wonders it exists. No scripture to back
it up. There, I've also expressed my boredom with all this -"back it up with scripture" stuff.

So, it is naturally a given that many would not even consider my above statement. Fine with me.

I appreciate your candor, but your beliefs seem anti-Christian.

You seem to think that tormenting someone forever is kind. I think it is plain ludicrous to say there is no conflict, but thats me and I have absolutely nothing vested in religious and traditional paradigm.

I was beginning to figure that my out, about you, myself.

I think the point you have a problem with, is Christ seems to be contradicting Himself, when He says, He's kind to the wicked, but He's gonna throw them in Hell, if they don't repent. It seems to me, kindness is a matter of degrees (no pun intended); it isn't all or nothing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0l3QWUXVho

 

[Robinson Crusoe]

The battles in the OT were for the protection of a geographical nation, Israel. Under the new covenant there is no geographical nation, the members of Christ's kingdom are from all geographical regions of the world.

Christians are The True Israel; today's Jews and the so called, "State of Israel," are at best, has-beens, yesterday's news, dumped and at worst, fakes. Ancient Israel had a land for itself, which it carved out and defended from the other nations. It wasn't supposed to mix with them. Although, it could enslave them. Christians shouldn't be any different.

God is the only true god. So, all nations should fear Him. However, God established, The Nations; He set their "boundaries." If He chose color, language, land and custom to establish those "boundaries," then so be it; we should all fear that.

Of course, that doesn't mean, The Iraq war is a just war, by what should be Christian standards. It does not appear to be, but then again, neither did WW1 or WW2. Even the American Civil War, didn't seem just. Certainly, The Indian Wars were just; we were carving out a nation for ourselves and it was, on the whole, Christian. Now that seems, like a good war!

 

[Brother Mike]

Everyone, Leave Jiggyfly Alone!!!!!!!​

My brother jiggyfly has been like this since I meet him way back on another forum. Him and I use to go back and fourth. He really does not mean to be like this. He can't help it though. He words things in a way to trap you in your own words. He is smart, and knows tons of scriptures, so you can't really out fox him. I have tried. The thing is, I believe somewhere he means well, and has posted some really cool things in the past. You will also not change what he Believes, so it's a waste of time.

Be kind to Jiggyfly week!!! woot.........

God bless everyone.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Butch5]

Christians are The True Israel; today's Jews and the so called, "State of Israel," are at best, has-beens, yesterday's news, dumped and at worst, fakes. Ancient Israel had a land for itself, which it carved out and defended from the other nations. It wasn't supposed to mix with them. Although, it could enslave them. Christians shouldn't be any different.

God is the only true god. So, all nations should fear Him. However, God established, The Nations; He set their "boundaries." If He chose color, language, land and custom to establish those "boundaries," then so be it; we should all fear that.

Of course, that doesn't mean, The Iraq war is a just war, by what should be Christian standards. It does not appear to be, but then again, neither did WW1 or WW2. Even the American Civil War, didn't seem just. Certainly, The Indian Wars were just; we were carving out a nation for ourselves and it was, on the whole, Christian. Now that seems, like a good war!

Sorry my friend, that was Augustine's argument after he changed his mind. There is no such thing as a just war. Christ said "love your enemies", what part of war is loving your enemies. Christians are not supposed to war, Paul said our weapons are not carnal but Spiritual. Jesus said my kingdom is no t of this world, if it were my servants would fight. So, since its not they don't.

 

[jiggyfly]

I appreciate your candor, but your beliefs seem anti-Christian.



I was beginning to figure that my out, about you, myself.

I think the point you have a problem with, is Christ seems to be contradicting Himself, when He says, He's kind to the wicked, but He's gonna throw them in Hell, if they don't repent. It seems to me, kindness is a matter of degrees (no pun intended); it isn't all or nothing.


http://www.youtube.c...h?v=b0l3QWUXVho

No I don't think that Christ contradicts Himself I think that the KJV and religious tradition contradicts Christ and what He was sent to earth to accomplish. I don't have a problem with what is commonly referred to as hell either it's just not a place of unending torment.

 

[Martin W.]

No I don't think that Christ contradicts Himself I think that the KJV and religious tradition contradicts Christ and what He was sent to earth to accomplish. I don't have a problem with what is commonly referred to as hell either it's just not a place of unending torment.

jiggy (and everybody)

I have a completely different way of looking at this whole subject (eternal torment etc)

I think the issue may very well be that the soul was created eternal (cannot be destroyed) and in the end they must be in one place or the other (with the Lord) or (not with the Lord).

Just some thoughts and not something I have thoroughly investigated. For example one of the laws of physics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed . I have often wondered if the same thing maybe applies to the soul , or even spirit for that matter.

Just some thoughts not based on study. Maybe I am looking for reasons why the Lord does not just let the unsaved completely expire. It would be an interesting study to go through the bible and look for hints that the (unsaved) soul is eternal in the afterlife.

 

[jiggyfly]

jiggy (and everybody)

I have a completely different way of looking at this whole subject (eternal torment etc)

I think the issue may very well be that the soul was created eternal (cannot be destroyed) and in the end they must be in one place or the other (with the Lord) or (not with the Lord).

Just some thoughts and not something I have thoroughly investigated. For example one of the laws of physics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed . I have often wondered if the same thing maybe applies to the soul , or even spirit for that matter.

Just some thoughts not based on study. Maybe I am looking for reasons why the Lord does not just let the unsaved completely expire. It would be an interesting study to go through the bible and look for hints that the (unsaved) soul is eternal in the afterlife.

So from your post I assume you don't believe God is omnipresent.

 

[Robinson Crusoe]

Sorry my friend, that was Augustine's argument after he changed his mind. There is no such thing as a just war. Christ said "love your enemies", what part of war is loving your enemies. Christians are not supposed to war, Paul said our weapons are not carnal but Spiritual. Jesus said my kingdom is no t of this world, if it were my servants would fight. So, since its not they don't.

You don't appear to know what love is.

Pacifism is incompetent; just because Christ went to The Cross, doesn't mean He was a doormat. Pacifists and their encouragers, are just over-generalizing.

And by the way, your whole ransom bru-ha-ha, is based on another gross over-generalization; Baptists have been singing about Ransom for generations! So, your claim to uniqueness seems bogus.

No I don't think that Christ contradicts Himself I think that the KJV and religious tradition contradicts Christ and what He was sent to earth to accomplish. I don't have a problem with what is commonly referred to as hell either it's just not a place of unending torment.

The Bible according to Jiggy.

Next you'll tell me, you are the true Messiah!

 

[jiggyfly]

You don't appear to know what love is.

Pacifism is incompetent; just because Christ went to The Cross, doesn't mean He was a doormat. Pacifists and their encouragers, are just over-generalizing.

And by the way, your whole ransom bru-ha-ha, is based on another gross over-generalization; Baptists have been singing about Ransom for generations! So, your claim to uniqueness seems bogus.



The Bible according to Jiggy.

Next you'll tell me, you are the true Messiah!

Nice response, I am used to such though. Run into it alot from those who can not post a legit scriptural case opposing UR.

Are you KJVO? Oh by the way I am very good friends with the true Messiah, Yeshua, if you like maybe I can introduce Him to you sometime.

 

[Robinson Crusoe]

Nice response, I am used to such though. Run into it alot from those who can not post a legit scriptural case opposing UR.

Are you KJVO? Oh by the way I am very good friends with the true Messiah, Yeshua, if you like maybe I can introduce Him to you sometime.

I'm not surprised you "run into it a lot," because there wouldn't be much point to it, since you don't appear to believe in The Bible anyway.

 

[jiggyfly]

I'm not surprised you "run into it a lot," because there wouldn't be much point to it, since you don't appear to believe in The Bible anyway.

Ah, have I said I don't believe in the bible? I believe in the scriptures, but I do not accept translations as being God breathed. Are you a KJVO?

 

[Brother Mike]

Ah, have I said I don't believe in the bible? I believe in the scriptures, but I do not accept translations as being God breathed. Are you a KJVO?

So, we throw out our KJV's??? What would you suggest Jiggyfly, I am not sure I am ready to switch to the BBE....... If you think it's better though, I'll give it another look.


Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Butch5]

You don't appear to know what love is.

Pacifism is incompetent; just because Christ went to The Cross, doesn't mean He was a doormat. Pacifists and their encouragers, are just over-generalizing.

And by the way, your whole ransom bru-ha-ha, is based on another gross over-generalization; Baptists have been singing about Ransom for generations! So, your claim to uniqueness seems bogus.

well my friend, can you explain why all of those who were taught by Christ and the apostles "ALL" understood the teaching to be that Christians were not to use violence at all. For the first 300 years of Christianity Christians did not use violence. If you believe that this is wrong then please explain how all of these people, thousands, could all misunderstand the teachings the exact same way. Also, what does that say about Christ and the apostles? Would you contend that they were not able to teach the Gospel? IF it is your position that Christ did not preach non violence, please explain how this could have been the understanding of "all" of His disciples.

As far as the Ransom view is concerned, I never claimed to be unique. It is not "My" view, it is the view of the early church. It was the view of western Christianity until around n1100 A.D. at which point a Catholic bishop named Anselm of Canterbury changed it to the satisfaction model, which is the basis of the Penal model which most hold today. So, yes, your model of the atonement has Catholic roots. The eastern branch of Christianity still holds the Ransom view and has from the beginning, so it is not unique to me my friend, and I never said it was.

 

[Martin W.]

Nice response, I am used to such though. Run into it alot from those who can not post a legit scriptural case opposing UR.

Are you KJVO? Oh by the way I am very good friends with the true Messiah, Yeshua, if you like maybe I can introduce Him to you sometime.

There are a lot of people who can quote scripture. It makes them feel religious. They wear it like a purple robe and make sure everyone sees it. It is an inherited weakness in mankind to always want to appear religious. Jesus did not care much for them in his day and I suspect he feels the same today.

And if that is not enough these folks turn to using super religious words and call Our Lord Yeshua as though it is a badge of honor compared to just using plain old "Jesus" like the rest of us unwashed nobodies.

I find very few people who can shut off the (cut and paste) computer , close the bible , and actually have a decent intelligent conversation about meaningful things in Christianity.

Weak people have to cut down others , or belittle others , all in order to appear superior in their knowledge. Yet behind it all and behind the smokescreen remains a weak person.

Satan quoted scriptures perfectly but it gained him nothing.

A 5 year old child can explain Christianity and gain everything.

Scripture has never saved anyone. Understanding scripture can save a few.

 

[fivesense]

The battles in the OT were for the protection of a geographical nation, Israel. Under the new covenant there is no geographical nation, the members of Christ's kingdom are from all geographical regions of the world.


According to Peter the last days were when Christ came. He applies the prophecy in Joel 2 to that day. Also Paul says, our weapons are not carnal but Spiritual.

The commandment to buy a sword was for an object lesson. As soon as Peter used that sword Christ rebuked him, telling him to put away the sword, saying, those who live by teh sword shall die by the sword. If you take notice you never again hear mention of the apostles having a sword. And as a matter of fact when Paul was stoned there were apostles present and Luke doesn't record anything out them helping to defend Paul.

Nice rebuttal, butch5. Now, are there any Bereans out there?
fivesense

 

[fivesense]

So, we throw out our KJV's??? What would you suggest Jiggyfly, I am not sure I am ready to switch to the BBE....... If you think it's better though, I'll give it another look.


Jesus Is Lord.

Hey! Don't throw away the KJV, it is extremely valuable to the serious seeker of truth. I use it constantly to study with. It is critical to know what that translation says instead of what the inspired Originals say. I have been able to clear up alot of wrong-headed thinking about our Father by comparing what is in the Greek and what is in the KJV. In order to unravel the garbage that's keeping out the Light, ya gotta have a KJV to find out what you've been mislead by. Youngs Concordance is cool.
fivesense