LOVING MUSLIMS

[Purity]

[SIZE=16pt]Direct access to God cannot be controlled by some guy in fancy nightgown.[/SIZE]

Its not in the spirit of Christ to openly mock the clerical wardrobe but we can comment on its unnecessary formality, can we not? Formalized religion was never taught by Christ and seeing everyone who is called is a king and priest in training we have no reason for such a hierarchical system (or its attire), though many a man put their trust in all its appearance's of piety and holiness.

If you ever get the opportunity to preach a true Gospel to a committed Catholic its a marvellous experience. Its likened to Nicodemus coming to the Lord by night - the realisation for him that the Samaritan woman could be saved!

Profoundly moving.

Purity

 

[Suhar]

Its not in the spirit of Christ to openly mock the clerical wardrobe but we can comment on its unnecessary formality, can we not? Formalized religion was never taught by Christ and seeing everyone who is called is a king and priest in training we have no reason for such a hierarchical system (or its attire), though many a man put their trust in all its appearance's of piety and holiness.

If you ever get the opportunity to preach a true Gospel to a committed Catholic its a marvellous experience. Its likened to Nicodemus coming to the Lord by night - the realisation for him that the Samaritan woman could be saved!

Profoundly moving.

Purity

[SIZE=large]So, making fun of unnecessary formality is bad but implying that Catholics are not even saved and need true gospel is good?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]I do not agree with that. Many Catholics are saved in spite of unbelievable amounts of unnecessary formalities obscuring true nature of true gospel.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=16pt]To correct myself. Mormons are not delusional sect of anything, they are delusional cult of it’s own. Cult that has nothing to do with Christianity but uses Christian names to insult and blasphemy them.[/SIZE]

 

[Purity]

[SIZE=large]So, making fun of unnecessary formality is bad but implying that Catholics are not even saved and need true gospel is good?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]I do not agree with that. Many Catholics are saved in spite of unbelievable amounts of unnecessary formalities obscuring true nature of true gospel.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=16pt]To correct myself. Mormons are not delusional sect of anything, they are delusional cult of it’s own. Cult that has nothing to do with Christianity but uses Christian names to insult and blasphemy them.[/SIZE]

Yes, the doctrines taught by Catholics are considered heresy are they not? However to mock anyone for anything is not appropriate behaviour for a true Christian. We have an obligation to point out the facts concerning fasle teaching. Often we fall into the trap of making fun of others religion while not pointing out the danger found in their beliefs. Lets get some perspective shall we?

Take the recent post for instance - imagine one believed their reward was to ascend to heaven as some ethereal spirit wafting into the ether. Fact: This is not the hope of the Bible for where Heaven is promised as being the reward? Now whether a community of believers all desire to wear funny looking gowns to highlight their separateness from the world is of no interest to the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, if they choose to do so "so be it", but preaching lies as being truth is an entirely different matter altogether.

Purity

 

[Suhar]

Yes, the doctrines taught by Catholics are considered heresy are they not?

[SIZE=medium]In a pile of manure there is a grain that survived digestive track and is still viable. Catholics have to look for that grain after demigoddess, gazzilions of rights, rituals, robes, saints, relics, secrets…. but they can still find it if they try hard enough.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Some find it. Even without guy in fancy nightgown.[/SIZE]

 

[aspen]

Oh brother.......

Must be comforting to be blind and utterly convinced about what the sun looks like.......

Make sure you never attend Mass Suhar, your fantasy world would be shattered

 

[Suhar]

Oh brother.......

Must be comforting to be blind and utterly convinced about what the sun looks like.......

Make sure you never attend Mass Suhar, your fantasy world would be shattered

[SIZE=medium]I heard many Catholic masses. It depends on the priest. Some masses are so clearly Christian that they would fit nicely in any church even the protestant one. Then there are some sermons by other priests that are nothing but pure gibberish about saints, relics, secrets… the only time Jesus is even mentioned during whole service is in the prayer and only as a “fruit” (of thy womb).[/SIZE]

 

[aspen]

[SIZE=medium]I heard many Catholic masses. It depends on the priest. Some masses are so clearly Christian that they would fit nicely in any church even the protestant one. Then there are some sermons by other priests that are nothing but pure gibberish about saints, relics, secrets… the only time Jesus is even mentioned during whole service is in the prayer and only as a “fruit” (of thy womb).[/SIZE]

I have not heard the word 'relic' mentioned at Mass. I have never heard a homily on Mary. Saints are rarely mentioned and when they are, they are only pointing to Christ. I have been to many, many Catholic Churches.

Much of the Mass includes readings from the NT, OT, and the Gospels. If you attend daily Mass, the entire Bible is read over three years. So I am not sure how you missed Jesus at Mass......

 

[Suhar]

I have not heard the word 'relic' mentioned at Mass. I have never heard a homily on Mary. Saints are rarely mentioned and when they are, they are only pointing to Christ. I have been to many, many Catholic Churches.

Much of the Mass includes readings from the NT, OT, and the Gospels. If you attend daily Mass, the entire Bible is read over three years. So I am not sure how you missed Jesus at Mass......

[SIZE=medium]Hey good for you. You have a good priest. I listened to catholic radio station and masses by many priests on it. [/SIZE]

 

[aspen]

[SIZE=medium]Hey good for you. You have a good priest. I listened to catholic radio station and masses by many priests on it. [/SIZE]

I do not listen to Catholic radio because most of it is polemic. It often overly focuses on the differences between Protestant and Catholic doctrine, giving it a distorted message - usually for the purpose of fighting rather than glorifying God.

 

[Selene]

[SIZE=medium]I heard many Catholic masses. It depends on the priest. Some masses are so clearly Christian that they would fit nicely in any church even the protestant one. Then there are some sermons by other priests that are nothing but pure gibberish about saints, relics, secrets… the only time Jesus is even mentioned during whole service is in the prayer and only as a “fruit” (of thy womb).[/SIZE]

I've never heard a homily on the saints, relics or secrets. All the homilies I heard are all about Jesus.

I have heard people on this forum say,mormons,jehova witnesses,and catholics are not christians?

You should know what i am talking about.I have seen you many times,on this forum and others,fending off the attacks of so called christians who consider catholics their enemy.

Yes, there are a few who attack Catholics and view them as non-Christians, but the attacks are not unexpected because they usually attack what they don't understand.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

[SIZE=16pt]Good thing Catholics do not get to decide.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]I know you think that Catholicism is the only true faith but only because you do not understand that God is so much greater then you can imagine. Direct access to God cannot be controlled by some guy in fancy nightgown.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]As for Mormons… there is no debate. People who believe that some day they will be equal to God Himself are nothing more then followers of some delusional sect, which uses Christian names.[/SIZE]

You misunderstood my point. I was not saying that Protestants are not saved. I was saying that if Mormons are not saved based on false beliefs, then we need to question whether we are saved or not. Making correctness of doctrine a deciding factor could exclude all Protestants from heaven if the Reformation was, in fact, wrong and led people into error.

Thankfully we are saved by grace, not a correct understanding of the Christian faith.

Oh brother.......

Must be comforting to be blind and utterly convinced about what the sun looks like.......

Make sure you never attend Mass Suhar, your fantasy world would be shattered

I was just pointing out the absurdity of Protestants bashing Mormons saying they're not Christian when in fact Mormons protested the Protestant denominations and formed their own belief system much like Martin Luther and King Henry protested the Catholic Church and did the same thing. Once they became separated brethren, they lost all authority by which they can say "I'm right and you're wrong." The LDS church is nothing more than a case of error springing from error.

 

[Purity]

Yes, there are a few who attack Catholics and view them as non-Christians, but the attacks are not unexpected because they usually attack what they don't understand.

Hmmm, I have spoken to hundreds of catholics over the years and in most cases the conversation ends with "its a mystery". In other words they do not know or understand the Gospel or its power; some have had to visit their priests to ask the questions only to be told not to engage with non catholics.

So Selene, where does this leave your comment?

I agree the spirit of "attacking" as you put it is not Christ-like however we must warn those who oppose themselves.

Recently on another forum I was involved in a debate concerning "supernatural doctrines" on such matters which the Bible remains totally silent (purgatory - infant baptism etc etc).

I was amazed at how resilient Catholics are in the face of such overwhelming Bible evidence. I mean some doctrines are very easily refuted while others need greater time to develop. Needless to say the old saying "give a child to a catholic priest for 7 years and they will always be catholic" has proven true in my experience.

But when one comes out of the great harlot its a mighty work to behold.

Purity

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Recently on another forum I was involved in a debate concerning "supernatural doctrines" on such matters which the Bible remains totally silent (purgatory - infant baptism etc etc).

I was amazed at how resilient Catholics are in the face of such overwhelming Bible evidence. I mean some doctrines are very easily refuted while others need greater time to develop. Needless to say the old saying "give a child to a catholic priest for 7 years and they will always be catholic" has proven true in my experience.

But when one comes out of the great harlot its a mighty work to behold.

Purity

Who is the great harlot in your analogy?

Moreover, even though the Bible is, put in its proper place, only a part of the full revelation of God, much of what some say is unbiblical is simply a case of not seeing it in the Bible. The epistles talk about entire families being baptized with no regard to age, understanding, or an "age of accountability". To say that forgiveness and redemption always involves an act of conscience volition on the part of the sinner is simplistic because sins can also be forgiven in an act of absolution even before the sinner recognizes their need for it. One example of this is when a paralyzed man is lowered through a roof to Jesus and Jesus tells the man, "You're sins are forgiven." Another is when Jesus tells the apostles, "you are clean because of the word I have spoken to you."

Salvation often means God saving us even in our ignorance, but once we become aware, we are called to walk in it. So a baptized infant makes his baptism invalid when he willingly departs from the faith as an adult. At some point, a willing decision is made, but not necessarily before the action that saves a person. The paralyzed man would need to walk in the newness of life he was given when Jesus forgave his sins, by the same token.

 

[aspen]

Purity - just because we are in a post-enlightenment age doesn't mean we have to have an answer for everything. Much of the important aspects of our relationship with God go way beyond words and are therefore a mystery. Reductionism and God do not go together even if it feels better.

 

[Purity]

Who is the great harlot in your analogy?

Well the Great Harlot is identified in Rev 17.

A more appropriate question for you to ask would be "if Roman Catholicism is the Mother Harlot who then are her daughters?

Firstly has not Rome always claimed to be the Mother Church? And does she not see Christianity as being her disobedient daughters?

During the Tridentine council the papacy described itself as being a "Roman Church" and "The Mother and Mistress of all churches". Now if we went back in history could we not prove also that her daughters were bought forth by her adulterous unions with the "kings of the earth"?

Is not the establishment of the church of England a case in point?

Was it not originally Roman in origin?

Surely I am not sharing history which is unknown to you?

Rome refused the request of King Henry VIII for a divorce, he set up the Church of England as distinct from that of Rome, and refused to acknowledge the authority of the Pope. All State Protestant Churches teach the basic doctrines of Rome in greater or lesser degree; whilst many of the ceremonies and beliefs of the mother church can be traced back to pagan Babylon.

"During the ten centuries of blindness and servitude, Europe received her religious opinions from the oracles of the Vatican, and the same doctrine, already tarnished with the rust of antiquity was admitted without dispute into the creed of the reformers who disclaimed the supremacy of the Roman pontiff. The synod of Chalcedon still triumphs in the Protestant churches. . . . " Gibbon (Chapter 47)

So one does not question RCC as being the Mother of Harlots the question now must be asked "who are her daughters"

Unless you have another interpretation of Rev 17?

The epistles talk about entire families being baptized with no regard to age, understanding, or an "age of accountability".

Please provide the Scripture where a young child is being sprinkled?

Purity - just because we are in a post-enlightenment age doesn't mean we have to have an answer for everything. Much of the important aspects of our relationship with God go way beyond words and are therefore a mystery. Reductionism and God do not go together even if it feels better.

I agree with your sentiments regarding "having answers for everything" but my comments were in relation to the Gospel hope. Now if you believe that hope has been demystified through the work of the Apostles then surely questions relating to that hope should be answerable by a Catholic?

Take the false teaching of Heaven going...ask a Catholic to provide a vision of heaven as being the hope of the saints and they cannot provide one. The church must put wings on angels though they only ever appear as men. An unenlightened mind cannot grasp an angel without wings, for how could they fly? Did Christ grow wings before ascending the Father? How may of these man made ridiculous notions could we discuss - pages and pages of threads would bring all their teachings to nought.

Aspen - all will be revealed upon his return - for now we tremble at his coming.

Purity

 

[aspen]

So you judge catholic doctrine by popular art and the testimony of pew sitters? Sorry friend, but the Catholic Church has not cornered the market on pop-religion and pew sitters. I would not be foolish enough to search out the pew sitters in your church and make sweeping judgments.

I know what I believe and I do not speak for everyone who calls themselves Catholic. On the other hand, doctrine and knowledge of doctrine does not save us; God's Grace saves us

 

[Purity]

On the other hand, doctrine and knowledge of doctrine does not save us; God's Grace saves us

Interesting you should write this at the same time as I was studying 1 Tim 4:16 in response to a friend.

Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers

Are we surprised such words would be required by the faithful in the last days?

Now if this had been your message to me Aspen - I would in part know you are closer to truth than at present.
Interesting how he places “life” before “doctrine.” The danger of losing perspective in how we "apply" the doctrines learnt during our life is essential. They must be seen in our behaviour and manner first only then you know the letter (Spirit Word) has been etched upon the heart.

I take from 1 Tim 4:16 one is to gain this "life and doctrine" by becoming a living example first, its a living faith, one seen in manifested throughout our lives by the doctrine (teaching) received through His Word from above.

Aspen, highlight the words “If you do” - many will not and despair will be their end.

Also, "if you do" consider your life and doctrine and you contend earnestly for it, knowing without doubt it is truth and with great sincerity it is found to be a pearl of great price, then I commend you before the Father on High and His beloved Son, however, if it is found to be falsehood, I truly pity your life for truth was set before you and for one reason or another you chose the teachings of men over your God.

May this not be so.

Purity

 

[Suhar]

Well the Great Harlot is identified in Rev 17.

[SIZE=medium]Let’s open a whole new can of worms! Which part of Revelation 17-18 does not fit USA? We do not kill saints? But we do kill tens of millions of unborn that are saints since they did not even get to be born.[/SIZE]

I should start new topic on this.

[SIZE=medium].[/SIZE]

 

[Purity]

[SIZE=medium]Let’s open a whole new can of worms! Which part of Revelation 17-18 does not fit USA? We do not kill saints? But we do kill tens of millions of unborn that are saints since they did not even get to be born.[/SIZE]

I should start new topic on this.

[SIZE=medium].[/SIZE]

Its ecclesiastical Suhar.

 

[Selene]

Hmmm, I have spoken to hundreds of catholics over the years and in most cases the conversation ends with "its a mystery". In other words they do not know or understand the Gospel or its power; some have had to visit their priests to ask the questions only to be told not to engage with non catholics.

So Selene, where does this leave your comment?

I agree the spirit of "attacking" as you put it is not Christ-like however we must warn those who oppose themselves.

Recently on another forum I was involved in a debate concerning "supernatural doctrines" on such matters which the Bible remains totally silent (purgatory - infant baptism etc etc).

I was amazed at how resilient Catholics are in the face of such overwhelming Bible evidence. I mean some doctrines are very easily refuted while others need greater time to develop. Needless to say the old saying "give a child to a catholic priest for 7 years and they will always be catholic" has proven true in my experience.

But when one comes out of the great harlot its a mighty work to behold.

Purity

Not all Catholics end with "It's a great mystery". Also, our doctrines are not easily refuted. If you want to know the answers to your questions, it's always best to go to a Catholic apologist.