Luke 16 the rich man in hell lift up his eyes in torment

[Harvest 1874]

You are a wise man to know that we are walking awfully close to danger when we try to read words into the Bible that were never written there.

The wise man knows it best not to go beyond what is written.

If however one does happen to believe something to be so in which there is no clear scriptural declaration, such should make it clear that it is only their opinion. This would not be admitting that your interpretative is necessarily wrong, only that it apears in your judgement to be reasonable.

 

[Enoch111]

You are simply adding your own interpretation to the parable in the vain attempt to support your own theory and/ or beliefs. Sorry but that's not acceptable evidence for any true student of the word to go by.

Unless Lazarus had been justified by grace, he could not have joined the OT saints in Sheol/Hades (including Abraham). We want every detail to be spelled out, but that is not how Scripture is written. Somewhere along the way, Lazarus trusted God and believed God. This is not rocket science.
"but now he is comforted" should tell you something.

 

[CoreIssue]

Gotcha, wondering why he called those who agree with John Ankerberg & Dave Hunt cult followers. I think it's time to post me some videos....lol!

Add Walter Martin.

Jehovah witness and by default Bible Students

 

[Harvest 1874]

Unless Lazarus had been justified by grace, he could not have joined the OT saints in Sheol/Hades (including Abraham). We want every detail to be spelled out, but that is not how Scripture is written. Somewhere along the way, Lazarus trusted God and believed God. This is not rocket science.
"but now he is comforted" should tell you something.

Once again nothing in the parable suggest such, this is only your opinion.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I don't want to be a bother, but I really expected that someone would have an answer for my post, but it got ignored. So I'm thinking I didn't make myself clear enough and no one understood my thought.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus - does anyone see that it shouldn't be used to prop up the argument for eternal torture IF an insistence is made that its a true life story of 2 actual men rather than a parable?

Because if its true life, the time to repent on earth is not over, (because the man asks that someone be sent to talk to his 5 brothers on earth so they might repent) so what is being described cannot be the lake of fire. Hence, the true life story has to take place before anyone is thrown in the lake of fire.

Once again, I'm not attempting to prove annihilation over eternal torture. I'm just saying if the parable is a true life story, you can't use it in defense of eternal torture, unless someone has something I haven't seen.

 

[Davy]

I don't want to be a bother, but I really expected that someone would have an answer for my post, but it got ignored. So I'm thinking I didn't make myself clear enough and no one understood my thought.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus - does anyone see that it shouldn't be used to prop up the argument for eternal torture IF an insistence is made that its a true life story of 2 actual men rather than a parable?

Because if its true life, the time to repent on earth is not over, (because the man asks that someone be sent to talk to his 5 brothers on earth so they might repent) so what is being described cannot be the lake of fire. Hence, the true life story has to take place before anyone is thrown in the lake of fire.

Once again, I'm not attempting to prove annihilation over eternal torture. I'm just saying if the parable is a true life story, you can't use it in defense of eternal torture, unless someone has something I haven't seen.

That's correct. The Luke 16 example cannot be used as an example of eternal torture, because Jesus was giving descriptors about that place (hades) during this present world time. And during this present world, the only... ones already judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire" event are the devil and his angels. No flesh born man has been judged to perish in the "lake of fire" yet, because that judgment doesn't happen until after Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20.

Eternal fire and damnation has been a mainstay teaching in the Churches for centuries in order to scare many to The Gospel. I'm not saying they are wrong in doing that, but that is not the depth of what God's Word teaches. Along with that teaching has been the idea that those in hell now have already begun their eternal punishment, and that they cannot believe on Jesus ever. Well, there's still Christ's millennium reign to go yet, and I feel like Apostle Paul about it, a hope that there will be both a resurrection of the just, and the unjust (Acts 24:15). And also in what Apostle Peter said in 2 Peter 3:9, that God is not willing that any should perish.

I believe that in final, the souls that go into the future "lake of fire" will choose to do so. They will choose eternal fire instead of bowing in worship to anyone besides themselves.

 

[marks]

Thanks for the reply marks!
Well, since there is no good in man, inherently good, not sold on that idea, lol. Could it be symbolic of something else? Perhaps the unending suffering Jesus spoke of-being separated forever from God?
Hmm.

Hi Nancy,

I wasn't meaning to imply there was something good remaining, only the part that lives on devoid of all benefit from God, in eternal torment.

Much love!

 

[Willie T]

Here is a link to the very same parable God just put on our preacher's mind:
PARABLES WK 17 - Rich Man - Lazarus - April 28, 2019

 

[marks]

I don't want to be a bother, but I really expected that someone would have an answer for my post, but it got ignored. So I'm thinking I didn't make myself clear enough and no one understood my thought.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus - does anyone see that it shouldn't be used to prop up the argument for eternal torture IF an insistence is made that its a true life story of 2 actual men rather than a parable?

Because if its true life, the time to repent on earth is not over, (because the man asks that someone be sent to talk to his 5 brothers on earth so they might repent) so what is being described cannot be the lake of fire. Hence, the true life story has to take place before anyone is thrown in the lake of fire.

Once again, I'm not attempting to prove annihilation over eternal torture. I'm just saying if the parable is a true life story, you can't use it in defense of eternal torture, unless someone has something I haven't seen.

While I agree with you on the face, that this is sheol/hades/hell, not the lake of fire, so it does not portray the eternal torment.

Just the same . . . do we think hell is real and the lake of fire not?

Eternal torment is taught, and a temporary place for the dead is taught. We see one portrayed, and believe . . .

Much love!
mark

 

[marks]

How dare I? As I stated in post #100 it is evident you have not been following this forum of late, our friend CoreIssue has just about accused everyone here on this forum of being involved in one cult or another simply because they adhere to the teachings of one or more specific exponents of the Scriptures whose particular views conflict with his.

You need to wake up my friend.

I don't remember CoreIssue accuse me of being in a cult, anyone else?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

While I agree with you on the face, that this is sheol/hades/hell, not the lake of fire, so it does not portray the eternal torment.

Just the same . . . do we think hell is real and the lake of fire not?

Eternal torment is taught, and a temporary place for the dead is taught. We see one portrayed, and believe . . .

Much love!
mark

It depends on how you look at it as to whether or not death is eternal torment. Death, the second death, is eternal. It is quite certain after you are brought to life again and then go to the 2nd death, that you will never be coming to life again. But does it actually say anywhere that all men will live forever? I know it has been interpreted that way, but have you actually found it where you can read it and not have to infer it?

As for whether it specifically says anywhere that the second death will be an eternal awareness rather than an actual dead and gone, I have not found it.

I have found weeping and gnashing of teeth, and I can understand that. You certainly would be very distraught to be ressurected only to find you were going to die again.

Do you know how you see people who are more comfortable in a very dysfunctional rut than they are at the thought of doing anything to change it? Its as if the fear of anything changing is worse than the torment of living as they are! I'm not certain they wouldn't be quite as content to live in an eternal torment. They might be okay with it, as long as they didn't have to die again. I've met such people.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hi Nancy,

I wasn't meaning to imply there was something good remaining, only the part that lives on devoid of all benefit from God, in eternal torment.

Much love!

What part of your life would that be that lives on, mark?

 

[marks]

It depends on how you look at it as to whether or not death is eternal torment. Death, the second death, is eternal. It is quite certain after you are brought to life again and then go to the 2nd death, that you will never be coming to life again. But does it actually say anywhere that all men will live forever? I know it has been interpreted that way, but have you actually found it where you can read it and not have to infer it?

As for whether it specifically says anywhere that the second death will be an eternal awareness rather than an actual dead and gone, I have not found it.

I have found weeping and gnashing of teeth, and I can understand that. You certainly would be very distraught to be ressurected only to find you were going to die again.

Do you know how you see people who are more comfortable in a very dysfunctional rut than they are at the thought of doing anything to change it? Its as if the fear of anything changing is worse than the torment of living as they are! I'm not certain they wouldn't be quite as content to live in an eternal torment. They might be okay with it, as long as they didn't have to die again. I've met such people.

There are places that speak of the eternal torment in the same words as our eternal life. And not eternal death, but torment - suffering. If we accept that we have eternal life, based on the Bible, then, if we are to be fair about it, we have to equally accept the doctrine of eternal torment.

Much love!

 

[marks]

What part of your life would that be that lives on, mark?

Hi stunnedbygrace,

Should I surmise that you hold to the annihilation of the condemned?

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

What part of your life would that be that lives on, mark?

That would be the "worm".

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That would be the "worm".

Like...an earthworm? Men have a worm in them and its an immortal part of themselves?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There are places that speak of the eternal torment in the same words as our eternal life. And not eternal death, but torment - suffering. If we accept that we have eternal life, based on the Bible, then, if we are to be fair about it, we have to equally accept the doctrine of eternal torment.

Much love!

Can you give me the verses you mean?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hi stunnedbygrace,

Should I surmise that you hold to the annihilation of the condemned?

Much love!
Mark

I think maybe...it would be better for you to surmise that I'm still in the Berean phase on the matter. That's why verses are what are going to help me at this point.

 

[marks]

Like...an earthworm? Men have a worm in them and its an immortal part of themselves?

Hi stunnedbygrace,

Actually, I don't know the components God has made man into. But i do know what God says to man about man, and his possible eternal destinies,

Much love!

 

[Nancy]

Here is a link to the very same parable God just put on our preacher's mind:

PARABLES WK 14 - DRAGNET - April 07, 2019

I am listening to it right now...