Luke 16 the rich man in hell lift up his eyes in torment

[marks]

Can you give me the verses you mean?

Matthew 25
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

punishment everlasting
kolasin aionion

life eternal
zoen aionion

Here is one example.

"punishment" is same word used here:

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Fear doesn't annihilate you, it's an ongoing condition, just like the torment it brings.

 

[Helen]

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus - does anyone see that it shouldn't be used to prop up the argument for eternal torture IF an insistence is made that its a true life story of 2 actual men rather than a parable?

Because if its true life, the time to repent on earth is not over, (because the man asks that someone be sent to talk to his 5 brothers on earth so they might repent) so what is being described cannot be the lake of fire. Hence, the true life story has to take place before anyone is thrown in the lake of fire.

Once again, I'm not attempting to prove annihilation over eternal torture. I'm just saying if the parable is a true life story, you can't use it in defense of eternal torture, unless someone has something I haven't seen.

I too believe that it is a true life ( death ) event and not a parable.

I do not believe it has anything to do with "eternal torment ".
'We all' post with such authority as if we all know for sure what is what, who is who, why and what, and know it all. We just don't!
People seem to love raking up eternal torment , hell and the rest. Some talk more about that than they do about the victory and wonder of God's redemptive Plan.
Why are we as believing believers and mature Christians so obsessed with worrying about hell? If it must, it should only be on our lips when praying for the unsaved.

For the record I do not believe in eternal torture. I do not believe burning forever and forever. I does not say that. But that's another story.

Unlike most. I do not believe that anyone is 'in hell'. The Day of Judgement has not come yet. No one has been judged either way yet.

Come to that, I don't believe anyone is in Heaven yet either. Save the Son of Man Jesus Christ. That Day has not come yet either.

Let the screamer scream, and let those who say "they know" continue.
God alone is the Faithful Judge and before Him we will each stand or fall.

God bless....Helen

 

[Helen]

Matthew 25
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

punishment everlasting
kolasin aionion

life eternal
zoen aionion

Here is one example.

"punishment" is same word used here:

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

I'm happy for you...keep believing that if you must.

Why is this stuff so important to the Christian? Why is so much time invested in talking about it? Seriously.

Contrary to what was taught to most of us as babes in Christ , Jesus did not speak about hell more than heaven...He three times as much spoke of Heaven, the kingdom or related things of God.
I just don't get people obsession about hell. Really.

My bible tells me - 8 "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. "

Aren't we as Christian called to "Behold Him."

 

[marks]

I'm happy for you...keep believing that if you must.

Why is this stuff so important to the Christian? Why is so much time invested in talking about it? Seriously.

hi ByGrace,

I believe what I read. If I'm reading it wrong I want to know that, so I can be more accurate in what I believe.

I'll discuss all of Scripture, but you must have a sense about me that I post much much more about God's love, and His provision in all ways, and how we are to live holy, and how God made it possible for each of us to do just that.

Contrary to what was taught to most of us as babes in Christ , Jesus did not speak about hell more than heaven...He three times as much spoke of Heaven, the kingdom or related things of God.
I just don't get people obsession about hell. Really.

Yes, I heard that all the time too, but I agree with you, He didn't.

There is so much more than that!

I don't think I have an obsession with hell, not like I do about the fullness of God's forgiveness and acceptence of His redeemed. With that, I am obsessed!

My bible tells me - 8 "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. "

Aren't we as Christian called to "Behold Him."

All Scripture is good. All Scripture reveals God. Not all Scripture appeals to our human ideal of pleasant, I fear!

Much love!
mark

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Matthew 25
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

punishment everlasting
kolasin aionion

life eternal
zoen aionion

Here is one example.

"punishment" is same word used here:

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Fear doesn't annihilate you, it's an ongoing condition, just like the torment it brings.

I can't say I was able to follow all of this. I particularly couldn't grasp how you made a leap to where I was saying fear would be what annihilated men.

But once again, "everlasting punishment" can depend on how you look at it.

Men are thrown into prison. Some get 10 years, some get life, some get the death penalty and execution.

The man who has got 10 years hadn't received eternal punishment.

The man who has got life, it may seem like an eternal punishment, but there might be some small glimmers of hope, like parole boards and pardons.

The man who is put to death , that's an eternal punishment, no hope left at all, like with the other two. No chance of any reversal.

They took away any option for him of any small glimmer of hope, that he could, even by a long shot, ever get out. They made his punishment everlasting (never can anyone ever change it) and nonreversible.

 

[marks]

I can't say I was able to follow all of this. I particularly couldn't grasp how you made a leap to where I was saying fear would be what annihilated men.

Just to say that torment does not include the idea of annihilation, apparently poorly stated!

But once again, "everlasting punishment" can depend on how you look at it.

Men are thrown into prison. Some get 10 years, some get life, some get the death penalty and execution.

The man who has got 10 years hadn't received eternal punishment.

The man who has got life, it may seem like an eternal punishment, but there might be some small glimmers of hope, like parole boards and pardons.

The man who is put to death , that's an eternal punishment, no hope left at all, like with the other two. No chance of any reversal.

They took away any option for him of any small glimmer of hope, that he could, even by a long shot, ever get out. They made his punishment everlasting (never can anyone ever change it) and nonreversible.

This is why I point out "eternal torment". That's not execution. There is no parole, no good behavior, no 10 years. Just eternal torment, counterpoint to eternal life. If the life goes on forever, the torment continues forever.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Just to say that torment does not include the idea of annihilation, apparently poorly stated!





This is why I point out "eternal torment". That's not execution. There is no parole, no good behavior, no 10 years. Just eternal torment, counterpoint to eternal life. If the life goes on forever, the torment continues forever.

Much love!

I'm at the point where I'm not convinced men are born immortal, as I've been told. I gave biblical support for how I arrived there.

 

[marks]

I'm at the point where I'm not convinced men are born immortal, as I've been told. I gave biblical support for how I arrived there.

If not existing without end, then not in torment without end. And so if aionios does not mean without end, then we have to relook at the many many Scriptures where this is the word for our eternal life.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And see, ByGrace thinks it's not a parable but is instead a true life story, but even though she disagrees with me on that, even she can see and note that it should not be used to tell what being in the lake of fire is like.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

If not existing without end, then not in torment without end. And so if aionios does not mean without end, then we have to relook at the many many Scriptures where this is the word for our eternal life.

Much love!

That might be worth a look. And also worth a look is whether we have been taught wrong that all men are born with immortality installed in them, because Genesis seems to suggest the opposite.

 

[marks]

whether we have been taught wrong that all men are born with immortality installed in them

Personally, I'm less concerned with what I'm taught than what I read for myself. Not that I disregard teaching out of hand, but if what we're taught conflicts with Scripture, I stay with Scripture.

I find that NT passages to be clear and compelling.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Personally, I'm less concerned with what I'm taught than what I read for myself. Not that I disregard teaching out of hand, but if what we're taught conflicts with Scripture, I stay with Scripture.

I find that NT passages to be clear and compelling.

Much love!

Yes, but the problem is what we've been taught sometimes skews our reading and then we don't see a discrepancy and say, wait a minute, this seems to change what I was taught...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And really, a good portion of the fights are 2 men, each taking half the truth, and arguing with their half truth as to which of them has the truth...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There are always verses in tension to other verses.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And to compound matters, scripture flashes forward and backward, present then future then back again.

We aren't alerted to when this happens like in a fiction book.

 

[marks]

Yes, but the problem is what we've been taught sometimes skews our reading and then we don't see a discrepancy and say, wait a minute, this seems to change what I was taught...

Is that the problem?

Or is the problem that we don't have God's perspective on things, and so have difficulty accepting certain realities?

Much Love!

 

[marks]

And to compound matters, scripture flashes forward and backward, present then future then back again.

We aren't alerted to when this happens like in a fiction book.

I find Scripture much more straightfoward than many people do, I think!

 

[marks]

There are always verses in tension to other verses.

I think this idea of "tension" in Scripture is another way of saying, "I haven't figured out how to reconcile this conflict I'm having in my understanding ot these passages."

I think that when we reach true understanding, there is no conflict, no 'tension'.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I find Scripture much more straightfoward than many people do, I think!

It is the glory of God to hide a matter and the glory of kings to search out a matter.

It is Gods privilege to conceal things and the kings privilege to discover them.

 

[marks]

It is the glory of God to hide a matter and the glory of kings to search out a matter.

It is Gods privilege to conceal things and the kings privilege to discover them.

And that which is revealed is ours forever! Or . . . maybe not quite "forever".