1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Mainstream churches

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Joyful, Feb 10, 2007.

  1. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

    Messages:
    813
    Likes Received:
    3
    I have a very low opinon of mainstream churches as a whole. I don't trust anyone or any orgnization as mature or serious Christians if they support and join the military, period. God is love. Love is the core of God. The Bible is all about God's love. And it is also written for us to love one another. "Love your enemy" is simple and clear to understand yet hard to obey if we are not mature or serious Christians. We cannot love our enemy by killing them. It is that simple. I have my thread "love your enemy" and my opposers claims were all lame excuses. They could not and can not refute my protest. Joining and supporting the military is wrong and committing sin against God. When you don't know the love of God and Jesus, everything else we are doing is meaningless and mocking God. All powerful countries have military and killing each other. The military is of this world. Jesus says if we love this world we are not worthy of Him. That's the main reason why I have such low opinion of the mainstream churches. And It seems to be showing in so many area of their practices. I have been to many places and interacted many kinds of Christisns, they are not showing godly private lives as a whole.
     
  2. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Messages:
    5,107
    Likes Received:
    211
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I too share in a negative opinion of some of what is going on in what you can label the mainstream church. However, it's not our place to comment on this people and condemn them one way or another. I don't know their hearts because I am not God, neither do you. There's nothing wrong with attacking the doctrine which you don't believe to be true, but it becomes a problem when you play God and pass down judgment.1 Corinthians 1:10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.When one starts pointing that finger and going that congregation, that denomiation, & etc. aren't true Christians, then you're letting the old enemy sneak in. Jesus himself told us he came to divide, but that doesn't mean we run around questioning and labeling other's Christianity all the time. He'll take care of that on the Lord's Day and I assure you he won't miss a one.
     
  3. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

    Messages:
    518
    Likes Received:
    0
    God is love, but He told Joshua, David, Gideon, Deborah and others to fight and kill the enemies of His people... I still believe He loves them all... Sometimes we have to fight or be killed.. If we had no military we would not have the liberty to be Christians,
     
  4. Fox

    Fox New Member

    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    0
    Regardless of one's church or doctrine, one thing cannot be argued. No matter how much we try to ignore it or deny it, G-d allows sin, suffering, warfare and death. The Bible itself is full of the same, and that is one of the reasons it is accepted as history, because its record is honest and plausible regarding man's imperfection. Attempts to make the Bible more palatable by "toning down" the judgments of G-d against other nations, the conducting of aggressive warfare against the Canaanites, and G-d's occasional strong hand against his own people are simply wishful thinking. It is easier to accept the G-d of the Bible, because of what we see around us, than to believe that G-d is like a kindly old grandfather that would never get angry or have harsh words. The G-d of wishy-washy liberal theology exists outside of reality! Furthermore, a G-d who is not in absolute control and having full foresight of the future would not really be "God" at all; just a powerful being with limitations. Society often ignores the nature of sin and evil. Especially is this true in our court system. Rather than hardened criminals being diagnosed as wicked or incorrigible, psychiatrists often diagnose them as "ill," as if there is some kind of treatment that, when found, will make them whole again. It is increasingly popular to believe that if such people can understand themselves or get "in touch" with themselves, that they will be healed of their criminality. However, not all people yield to gentle persuasion. Many learn life's lessons the hard way, through much suffering and loss, because of stubbornness or pride (Proverbs 1:32; 16:18). Though the Spirit of G-d has transformed the lives of millions, the coming of the kingdom of G-d must include the destruction of those who refuse to change; as their continued presence works against good. Sadly, untold greater numbers must someday be resurrected to face the throne of judgment without hope (Revelation 20:11-15). Many of those who object to a country being militarily prepared for defense are often those who deny the nature of evil, let alone the reality of sin. In studying the aims of Communism, for instance (which have not changed in decades), it amazes me how naive the Free World is regarding totalitarian governments. We seem to be eager to believe that totalitarian nations will keep their word, or that they really have our good in mind; but a study of history shows this to be far from true. An article in The Review of the News of Dec. 26, 1984 (p. 53-54) reveals that a team of historians did a study (at a cost of over one million dollars) of all the disarmament agreements of the last 1000 years of Western history, and found that in every recorded instance, the disarmament agreements led to war. The study shows that without exception the "honest" side that actually disarmed was attacked by the "dishonest" side, and was usually conquered. These agreements have always given aggressors a superior position while putting peace-seeking nations in a state of fatal weakness. Even Ghandi, noted for his hunger strikes and peaceful demonstrations, admitted that his tactics would not work with totalitarian governments. Self-defense is not something that needs to be taught to people, but is part of man's natural reaction to imminent danger. Not only evident among humans, self-defense comes natural to all animals and even some plants. Accordingly, it was not usually necessary for Yahweh to teach his people how to defend themselves, but rather, in the time of Moses, he lays down laws governing the limitations of self-defense (Exodus 21:12 through 22:3). Since warfare is often a form of self-defense, the two are often connected. Long before the nation of Israel was established, war was sanctioned by Yahweh for just causes. In Genesis chapter 14, due to the capture of his nephew Lot, Abraham goes to war against Chedorlaomer king of Elam. There is no mention of Yahweh directing this action, but he does afterwards have Melchizedek king of Salem bless Abraham, saying, "Blessed be Abram of G-d Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; and blessed be G-d Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand." In chapter 15, G-d further blesses him in a vision. Abraham believed in self-defense as well as aggressive warfare, and trusted in G-d's blessing in war even though there is no evidence that he petitioned G-d for victory first. He simply did what he knew to be proper. In giving the Law to the nation of Israel, Yahweh tells them he is a Warrior God (Exodus 15:3) and that He would go before them to defeat their enemies. This was not a matter of self-defense, but aggressive warfare with a view to claiming their promised land. Yahweh directed them to either take the captives as slaves or to destroy every able-bodied man; and in some cases women and children as well (Deuteronomy 20:10-18). Here is where G-d's understanding of evil transcends man's response to it. While the Israelites often objected to this approach due to its "inhumanity" (which disobedience later proved to be their undoing), G-d knew that it was necessary to destroy evil people rather than to allow them to corrupt his own children (Deuteronomy 20:18). Over and over in the Tanakh, as the Israelites went to war, "there was left no one who breathed." These would be labeled as wars of aggression by modern standards. Yahweh warned his people that if they did not destroy all the Canaanites in their victories, that they would later become a snare to Israel. This would bring about a reverse effect, for G-d would then inspire the pagan nations to war against Israel (Deuteronomy 28:15-37). Israel would then naturally respond in self-defense. G-d would then respond by raising up judges to help his people in this warfare, implying that he certainly expected them to fight their enemies (even when he inspired their enemies to war against them in the first place - Joshua 23:12-16; Judges 2:14 through 3:12). G-d apparently felt that war served to keep his people on their toes, so to speak, and that extended times of peace resulted in apostasy due to their sinful nature (Judges 2:18-19). We find in Hebrews chapter eleven that these very judges who used assassinations, terrorism, sabotage and guerrilla warfare are praised as examples of faith and courage for Christians, because they were willing to risk their lives and die for a just cause. It is no wonder that many critics of the OT consider Yahweh as a "tribal God," different from the New Testament Christ! In the first century, we find believing Israelites who were soldiers (they may have been Romans who converted to Judaism, or Jews under the service of Herod Antipas). When the people came to be baptized by John, they would ask him questions about whether they should make changes in their lives (Luke 3:10-18), and he would give them the same kind of advice that Jesus later gave. When soldiers asked him, "And what about us, what shall we do?" he answered, "Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages." (Luke 3:14). This would have been John's perfect opportunity to tell them to resign from the military, but he counseled them instead to be content with their jobs. In Acts chapter 10 we find Cornelius, who is a centurion of the Roman army, described as a devout man who feared G-d and prayed continually. In verse 35, the apostle Peter implies that he is a doer of what is right. He becomes a believer in Jesus and is baptized, apparently remaining a centurion in the army. There is no mention in the NT of any soldiers who were admonished to leave their profession to become a Christian. The apostle Paul, in fact, counsels new converts to "remain in that condition in which he was called" (1 Cor. 7:24). The Lord Jesus only appears to have said two things that deal directly with self-defense and warfare, and these statements appear to be contradictory at first glance. On the night of his betrayal, knowing that he would soon be parted from his disciples, he told them, And he said to them, "When I sent you out without purse and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" And they said, "No, nothing." And he said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one." (Luke 22:35, 36) The second statement he made later that night, when Peter struck at the slave of the high priest with his sword: Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? How then shall the Scripture be fulfilled that it must happen this way? (Matt. 26:52-54) Why did Jesus tell them to take up provisions that would equip them for new conditions in the ministry, including a sword for self-defense, and then shortly thereafter tell Peter not to use the sword? The key lies in the context of each statement. Peter was told not to use the sword, because he was acting in the flesh, forgetting that Jesus told him he would have to be arrested and suffer death. Peter did not see the purpose in Jesus' arrest and death. He was acting out of his flesh rather than from wisdom. Those who live out of their flesh, Jesus intimated, with its violent and unbridled passions, will die at the hands of the same. Yet, Peter and the others were told to take up swords and money pouches and an outer garment for specific reasons (not just out of symbolism; as he would have only mentioned swords and not pouches if this was the case). Yet, other statements of Jesus that seem to bear on the issue of self-defense seem pacifistic, such as in Matthew 5:39, where Jesus says "not to resist the one who is evil; but to him who slaps you on the cheek, to offer him your other cheek." How are we to understand this? Matthew 5:39 is part of a larger sermon of Jesus, where he advocates giving everything you have to those who ask it of you, doing favors for any who ask them, and allowing yourself to suffer loss in lawsuits others may bring against you. Do we accept such statements without qualification? Was Jesus contradicting the Proverbs (Prov. 22:26,27; 25:26)? To accept this advice without qualification would make one an unusual person, indeed! Most Christians believe that there are other Biblical truths that qualify, or limit, the application of this advice, such as in 2 Thes. 3:10, where a brother who asks for a meal should be turned down if he refuses to work. Robert D. Culver has this to say about passages such as Matthew 5:39: "It is surely a mistake to interpret Jesus' sayings as if they must have unconditional application - that is, apart from other biblical revelation and apart from all interpretation. Especially, attention must be given to hyperbole as a technique to capture attention and enforce a point. Jesus used it often. How else can we understand such a saying as: "If any... hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26). Jesus did not intend us to apply his sayings about lending, accompanying guests, presenting a cheek for smiting, and so on, without respect to common sense and care for family and others who are neither borrowers nor guests nor having temper tantrums. The Old Testament is not wanting in instructions very similar to Jesus' famous sermon. Strack and Billerbeck provide sufficient evidence of parallels to one verse (Matt. 5:25, "agree with thine adversary quickly") to cover most of three pages - and so on through the Sermon on the Mount Jewish scholars rightly protest that Jesus' ethical sayings were not unique to him among ancient rabbis. Pacifist writers sometimes find what they think are their own pacifist teachings in the Old Testament, but when they do so the divinely commanded (not merely permitted) wars do not fit the scheme." Jesus said that his kingdom was no part of this world; otherwise his servants would fight that he not be delivered up to his captors (John 18:36). Jesus made it plain that the real hope of believers was in the future literal kingdom of G-d, to be established on the earth (at his return). He continually emphasized this to his followers, who erroneously believed they would somehow bring about the existence of the kingdom through physical force or revolution (Acts 1:6). Such cannot happen, due to man's sinful nature and the influence of evil. Armed resistance is not proper in resolving spiritual issues, such as when you are being persecuted for your faith (compare Rom. 12:14). In contrast to this, though, Jesus did not hesitate to use aggressive force in clearing out the temple area of the moneychangers (Matt. 21:12; John 2:15). His use of a whip of cords and the violence of his actions stands out; revealing that Jesus condoned the just use of force. Rather than suggesting that we cease resisting evil and simply give in to its demands, Jesus redirected the nature of warfare for the believer. Of much greater importance and significance is spiritual warfare; the ability to recognize evil at its source and put on the appropriate weapons of battle to combat it. Spiritual warfare is where the Christian has the greatest advantage. Paul reveals that the long-range effects of such warfare are so far superior to what man can do in the flesh, that every Christian should be spending his or her energies in this direction (2 Cor. 10:36). While one's obligations to "Caesar" may, to some extent, slow down our movement towards this goal, they should never be viewed as a substitute for aggressive Christian ministry. Since neither Jesus nor his apostles addressed issues such as the morality of war, nuclear weapons, disarmament treaties, serving on a police force, etc., we must consider the principles involved in each issue. Jesus made it clear that Christians will suffer persecution for their faith, but said that such persecution will prove to be a witness to others. God would reward them for their tolerance of injustice in matters of their faith. It is vital that Christians have a peace-loving attitude, not desiring conflict or struggle. A disposition to glory in mortal combat is clearly of the devil (James 4:1, 2). Yet in the face of sudden or imminent evil, wisdom is required to know the best course to take, as situations can be complicated. War is not an unmixed evil, or God would not have commanded the Israelites to war, nor would Michael and his angels war against the devil and his angels (Rev. 12:7). Though war may appear simply evil, it is sometimes a moral necessity. Christians do not believe that utopia will come on the earth apart from G-d's direct intervention. In his discussion about not paying back evil for evil and the taking of vengeance, Paul says, "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men." (Romans 12:18) If there is something we can do to ward off arguments or violence with others, then we are to seek this foremost. This does not mean, however, that we are to consistently allow evil people to use us for their own ends (Prov. 25:26). If we are aware of evil intentions on their part that will bring harm to others, we would not logically seek "peace" by giving in to their demands. You do not turn over your child to a child molester just to "keep peace." By the same token, many Christians feel that the Free World is not to disarm so that totalitarian countries can take over and destroy the lives of millions. They see it as the same kind of issue, one of self-defense, rather than an issue of the faith. Clearly, there are going to be situations where maintaining peace will be impractical, unlivable, and even impossible. Even when we are not motivated by a desire for vengeance, peace will still be impossible at times. Consequently, "peace" cannot always be the Christian's response, because of the malevolent intent of others. Paul did not allow the fornicator to continue influencing the Corinthians (though they felt it would keep the peace to allow him to remain), but said to disfellowship him (1 Cor. 5:13). It is hard for us to deny a brother a meal; but if he refuses to work, we are to deny him food (2 Thes. 3:10), and deny him fellowship. The apostle John tells us that we are to refuse to make peace with a "brother" who is teaching a different Christ, not even giving him a greeting (2 John 9,10). In summary of the above, peace is not the only option for Christians. The above mentioned Scriptures qualify our being peacemakers, because making peace in those situations would result in far greater evils! That is the main point. That is why a refusal to defend your own family from a sex criminal or a murderer can result in much greater evil than physically resisting such a one. Peace isn't always maintained by giving in to deliberate evil. Gleason Archer says: "Is it really a manifestation of goodness to furnish no opposition to evil? Can we say that a truly good surgeon should do nothing to cut away cancerous tissue from his patient and simply allow him to go on suffering until finally he dies? Can we praise a police force that stands idly by and offers no slightest resistance to the armed robber, the rapist, the arsonist, or any other criminal who preys on society? How could G-d be called "good" if He forbade His people to protect their wives from ravishment and strangulation by drunken marauders, or to resist invaders who have come to pick up their children and dash out their brains against the wall? ...No nation could retain its liberty or preserve the lives of its citizens if it were prevented from maintaining any sort of army for its defense. It is therefore incumbent on a "good G-d" to include the right of self-defense as the prerogative of His people. He would not be good at all if He were to turn the world over to the horrors of unbridled cruelty perpetrated by violent and bloody criminals or unchecked aggression of enemies."
     
  5. Fox

    Fox New Member

    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    0
    Further reading...There is Scripture which condones self defence - Exodus 22:2 states, "If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him." If you take a life to protect your own life or the lives of others, G-d accepts that as a just cause. Also, Yeshua spoke of going to war as a natural condition on this earth (Luke 14:31) and Shaul speaks of a ruler as "a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil" (Romans 13:4). This would include going to war.
     
  6. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

    Messages:
    813
    Likes Received:
    3
    (Fox;7173)
    Further reading...There is Scripture which condones self defence - Exodus 22:2 states, "If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him." If you take a life to protect your own life or the lives of others, G-d accepts that as a just cause. Also, Yeshua spoke of going to war as a natural condition on this earth (Luke 14:31) and Shaul speaks of a ruler as "a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil" (Romans 13:4). This would include going to war.
    You sure put a long post, I wonder who many are reading such long ones.
     
  7. woodruff

    woodruff New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    (betchevy;7132)
    God is love, but He told Joshua, David, Gideon, Deborah and others to fight and kill the enemies of His people... I still believe He loves them all... Sometimes we have to fight or be killed.. If we had no military we would not have the liberty to be Christians,
    agreed! there are countless battles in the old testament, seemingly god ordained or at least sanctioned/ecnouraged. i am not thrilled by the current war, but i am not over there risking my life either, and i will pray for the safety and courage of those braver than myself...
     
  8. woodruff

    woodruff New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    (Faithful1;7075)
    . I have been to many places and interacted many kinds of Christisns, they are not showing godly private lives as a whole.
    jesus is the only one that lived a Godly private/public life perfectly and beyond judgement. overall, i dont understand your post.....
     
  9. jamesrage

    jamesrage New Member

    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    0
    (Faithful1;7075)
    I have a very low opinon of mainstream churches as a whole.

    I don't trust anyone or any orgnization as mature or serious Christians if they support and join the military, period.
    What?I do not think your problem is with mainstream churches,I think it is with the military in general.I served in the military for three years so I take offense to this absurd notion that you can't be in the military or support the military and be a real Christian at the same time.
    God is love. Love is the core of God. The Bible is all about God's love. And it is also written for us to love one another. "Love your enemy" is simple and clear to understand yet hard to obey if we are not mature or serious Christians. We cannot love our enemy by killing them.It is that simple. I have my thread "love your enemy" and my opposers claims were all lame excuses. They could not and can not refute my protest. Joining and supporting the military is wrong and committing sin against God.
    Where would we be without our military,where would we be today if men and women out of their own free will did not join the military?John 15:3Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.If you think it is a sin to be in the military or to support the military ,wouldn't it be hypocritical to be living in a country that owes it's freedom,rights,way of life and existence to the military?Wouldn't this be no different than accepting the money from a thief,prostitute,drug dealer,robber or any other person who makes their money from sin?
     
  10. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

    Messages:
    813
    Likes Received:
    3
    (jamesrage;10474)
    What?I do not think your problem is with mainstream churches,I think it is with the military in general.I served in the military for three years so I take offense to this absurd notion that you can't be in the military or support the military and be a real Christian at the same time.
    Jesus tells us to love our enemy. I take every word seriously that Jesus teaches. Jesus' teaching of "love your enemy" is very core of Jesus charactor of "love". Whole world is based on their mentality of killing their enemy if they are evil. Jesus also tells us to be sault and light in the world. If our mentality is the same as the world, we are not being Jesus' ambassadors. Do you realize that muslims' mentality as the same as mainstream churches killing their evil enemies?
    Where would we be without our military,where would we be today if men and women out of their own free will did not join the military?
    I have a faith that if I follow Jesus by obeing His teaching, everything will be all right. This is my faith. His followers should not rely on the the military to protect us.
    John 15:3Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
    You are not laying down your life for Jesus; you are laying down for your military. In the mean time you are killing your enemy. Jesus' followers should not harm anyone, not even their enemy. BTW, do you realize that many, many disciples of Jesus have been killed and tortoured even now without being in the military and killing their enemy? This is the kind of sacrifice Jesus is talking about. Let's not mixed up Jesus' love with worldly cause.
    If you think it is a sin to be in the military or to support the military ,wouldn't it be hypocritical to be living in a country that owes it's freedom,rights,way of life and existence to the military?Wouldn't this be no different than accepting the money from a thief,prostitute,drug dealer,robber or any other person who makes their money from sin?
    God is putting everyone where they belong. God needs His people everywhere to spread Jesus, my friend.thank you for your inquiry.
     
  11. jamesrage

    jamesrage New Member

    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    0
    (Faithful1;10477)
    Jesus tells us to love our enemy. I take every word seriously that Jesus teaches. Jesus' teaching of "love your enemy" is very core of Jesus charactor of "love".
    Where do you get this idiotic notion that killing has to be associated with hatred.When a family puts their pet out of it's misery does that mean they hate the animal.
    Whole world is based on their mentality of killing their enemy if they are evil.
    Don't you believe evil exist?
    I have a faith that if I follow Jesus by obeing His teaching, everything will be all right. This is my faith. His followers should not rely on the the military to protect us.
    It is because of the military that you can do what you want to do.
    You are not laying down your life for Jesus; you are laying down for your military.
    No you when are in the military you are laying your life down for everyone in your country and possibly people in other countries as well.
    In the mean time you are killing your enemy.
    Killing is not always associated with hatred.You do not have to hate someone in order to kill them.Much like you do not have to hate a child in order to discipline that child if it does wrong
    Jesus' followers should not harm anyone, not even their enemy. BTW, do you realize that many, many disciples of Jesus have been killed and tortoured even now without being in the military and killing their enemy? This is the kind of sacrifice Jesus is talking about. Let's not mixed up Jesus' love with worldly cause.
    This is nothing more than a blatant twisting of the bible to excuse cowardice.There were not that many disciples back then to do anything. Killing is not always associated with hatred.
    God is putting everyone where they belong. God needs His people everywhere to spread Jesus, my friendthank you for your inquiry.
    I asked you if it was hypocritical to be living in a country that owes it's freedom,rights,way of life and existence to the military,I did not not ask you to make excuses for for for blatant hypocrosy.You wouldn't you take money from a prostitute,thief or robber,why would you live in a country that owes it's existence and everything you are allowed to do to the military?
     
  12. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

    Messages:
    813
    Likes Received:
    3
    (woodruff;10456)
    jesus is the only one that lived a Godly private/public life perfectly and beyond judgement. overall, i dont understand your post.....
    Of course none of us can live perfect godly life but Jesus says with God's help anything is possible. I believe Jesus is saying that if we do our best to live godly life by reading the Bible daily and strive to obey everthing we are lerning His Holy Spirit will fill our imperfection part.
     
  13. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

    Messages:
    813
    Likes Received:
    3
    (jamesrage;10491)
    Where do you get this idiotic notion that killing has to be associated with hatred.When a family puts their pet out of it's misery does that mean they hate the animal.Animal and human lives are totally different. Human being worth much, much more than animal. Don't you believe evil exist?
    Of course I do.
    It is because of the military that you can do what you want to do.
    I trust God to protect me and my family. If we get killed because we do not use weapon to portect ourselves that is good for us. I am consistant in reaching out to anyone because of my anti-military position.
    No you when are in the military you are laying your life down for everyone in your country and possibly people in other countries as well.
    Only your country and your military believe that. Your enemies believe the same thing. Muslims and Americans and other so called Christians killing and destrying each other using God and Jesus' name.
    Killing is not always associated with hatred.You do not have to hate someone in order to kill them.Much like you do not have to hate a child in order to discipline that child if it does wrong
    According to Jesus, we are supposed to love our enemy and not to kill and destroy them.Are you saying seriel killers are okay with God as long as he doesn't hate those he murders?? What are you talking about?
    This is nothing more than a blatant twisting of the bible to excuse cowardice.There were not that many disciples back then to do anything. Killing is not always associated with hatred.
    It seems that you are the one who are twisting Jesus teaching of "love your enemy". This is not so hard to understand. It is hard to accept, especially for politicians. The military is the biggest business in the world.
    I asked you if it was hypocritical to be living in a country that owes it's freedom,rights,way of life and existence to the military,I did not not ask you to make excuses for for for blatant hypocrosy.You wouldn't you take money from a prostitute,thief or robber,why would you live in a country that owes it's existence and everything you are allowed to do to the military?
    No, I don't believe it is. I am just being obedient to Jesus as much as I can with everything I learn by putting into practice what I am learning.Now can you justify killing your enemy when Jesus says to love them?You seem to have the problem with hypocrisy, not me. I trust God to take care of me without having to kill others to do it.
     
  14. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    This country is so messed up to be honest. Do you not know tough love? I don't support things that I don't know much or not at all.Look at this. Lord Jesus Christ chose twelve people and one of them is a devil?John 6:70 - Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?Here's one with Lord Jesus Christ calling Peter, Satan, for telling Jesus, that He does not need to die.Matthew 6:21-23 - From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.Here is one that Jesus overturned the moneychangers...Matthew 21:12-13 - And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.Jesus calls people generation of vipers.Matthew 12:34 - O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.Our Lord Yahshua, needed to say/do things that needed to be done...P.S. I don't support militaries...you can defend someone and not kill anyone.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.
     
  15. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

    Messages:
    813
    Likes Received:
    3
    you can defend someone and not kill anyone.
    Exactly! Jesus wants us to be example of peace makers and not join to kill our enemy. We should not rely on chariots and horses; that's what the world do and Jesus' warriors should not kill anyone. Many, many Jesus' warriers(disciples) are getting killed since Jesus times for Jesus' sake..
     
  16. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    I know we have argued this before and will most likely never see eye to on this. I even understand how you would think this but it is not true I wish it were. And in the millenium it will be true but in this world in the flesh God not only knows we will war he uses it to accomplish is desires among men. You say God will protect us to love our enemies. Yet this is only a small part of the word and I believe easy to take out of context. God protected Israel yet many times by telling them to go to war against their enemies. Your idea only works if the whole world were Christan's and lived by the word.They aren't and they don't.You also seem to leave out that if God chooses he can stop war as he has also done several times in scripture.Whether we like it or not God has enemies and he uses war to kill them and send them to him. Do innocent people get killed? yes. It is the nature of war. But do you not think that God knows this yet he still ordains wars.You seem to forget that death of the body means little to God. It simply means you return home to him. You are completely entitled to your personal feeling on the militaryBut where you error in my humble opinion is to claim war is against Gods wordwhen the bible says the opposite.You say all countries feel the same way so our reasons for going to war are all the same. Again you are wrong in this conclusion. Radical Islam has no country it is a religious war foretold from the beginning when the sons of darkness will fight against Gods children. Radical Islam if you study it has one goal to wipe out Jews and Christians. God knew end of this age would come about through war. He has foretold it and put hooks into the mouths of his enemies to cause them to war. So for you to say that War is against God is plain to not Biblical.Now I know from past discussions this will not change your mind but it is my opinion, I believe it is Biblically correct. Exd 15:3 The LORD [is] a man of war: the LORD [is] his nameExd 17:16 For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn [that] the LORD [will have] war with Amalek from generation to generation. Num 1:3 From twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armiesNum 31:3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian. Jer 21:4 Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Behold, I will turn back the weapons of war that [are] in your hands, wherewith ye fight against the king of Babylon, and [against] the Chaldeans, which besiege you without the walls, and I will assemble them into the midst of this city. Jer 49:2 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will cause an alarm of war to be heard in Rabbah of the Ammonites; and it shall be a desolate heap, and her daughters shall be burned with fire: then shall Israel be heir unto them that were his heirs, saith the LORD.Joel 3:9Proclaim this among the nations: Prepare for war! Rouse the warriors! Let all the fighting men draw near and attack.
     
  17. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    (kriss;10503)
    I know we have argued this before and will most likely never see eye to on this. I even understand how you would think this but it is not true I wish it were. And in the millenium it will be true but in this world in the flesh God not only knows we will war he uses it to accomplish is desires among men. You say God will protect us to love our enemies. Yet this is only a small part of the word and I believe easy to take out of context. God protected Israel yet many times by telling them to go to war against their enemies. Your idea only works if the whole world were Christan's and lived by the word.They aren't and they don't.You also seem to leave out that if God chooses he can stop war as he has also done several times in scripture.Whether we like it or not God has enemies and he uses war to kill them and send them to him. Do innocent people get killed? yes. It is the nature of war. But do you not think that God knows this yet he still ordains wars.You seem to forget that death of the body means little to God. It simply means you return home to him. You are completely entitled to your personal feeling on the militaryBut where you error in my humble opinion is to claim war is against Gods wordwhen the bible says the opposite.You say all countries feel the same way so our reasons for going to war are all the same. Again you are wrong in this conclusion. Radical Islam has no country it is a religious war foretold from the beginning when the sons of darkness will fight against Gods children. Radical Islam if you study it has one goal to wipe out Jews and Christians. God knew end of this age would come about through war. He has foretold it and put hooks into the mouths of his enemies to cause them to war. So for you to say it is War is against God is plain to not Biblical.Now I know from past discussions this will not change your mind but it is my opinion, I believe it is Biblically correct. Exo 15:3 The LORD [is] a man of war: the LORD [is] his nameExo 17:16 For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn [that] the LORD [will have] war with Amalek from generation to generation. Num 1:3 From twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armiesNum 31:3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian. Jer 21:4 Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Behold, I will turn back the weapons of war that [are] in your hands, wherewith ye fight against the king of Babylon, and [against] the Chaldeans, which besiege you without the walls, and I will assemble them into the midst of this city. Jer 49:2 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will cause an alarm of war to be heard in Rabbah of the Ammonites; and it shall be a desolate heap, and her daughters shall be burned with fire: then shall Israel be heir unto them that were his heirs, saith the LORD.
    To be honest with you Kriss, War can go both ways though. (Good or Evil) David killed Goliath...Yes he did. God destroy the wicked in Lot's time because they want keep on raping people...Those guys wants to rape the angels as well. God saved Lot, and his wife turned into a pillar of salt because she refuses to go. Evil needs to end...NOT TO GROW! There are so many things that are evil. False doctrines, evil actions etc...We Christians should not be the ones laying down and die...otherwise "the god of this world" would win if we did that. Killing people may not be every nice at all...if possible that we can defend our love ones and still not kill them. But remember we should not take pleasures of killing people, otherwise we need to repent. USA seems to be more satanic to me than a Christian nation. We are losing our God-Given Freedom.P.S. I have not read many wars in the OT yet...so yea...P.S. True love is condemning people's evil actions...but we should still love them.
     
  18. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    You are right Jag notice in the above quotes Jer 21:4 where Gods says he will turn back war. If it is not in Gods plan, no war will happen. We must trust and have faith that, as horrible as war is. It is God alone that controls the nations and he will cause or prevent war at his desire to bring about his plan. Sometimes God requires we love our enemy's enough to send them home to God to deal with
     
  19. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

    Messages:
    813
    Likes Received:
    3
    (kriss;10503)
    I know we have argued this before and will most likely never see eye to on this. I even understand how you would think this but it is not true I wish it were. And in the millenium it will be true but in this world in the flesh God not only knows we will war he uses it to accomplish is desires among men. You say God will protect us to love our enemies. Yet this is only a small part of the word and I believe easy to take out of context. God protected Israel yet many times by telling them to go to war against their enemies. Your idea only works if the whole world were Christan's and lived by the word.They aren't and they don't.You also seem to leave out that if God chooses he can stop war as he has also done several times in scripture.Whether we like it or not God has enemies and he uses war to kill them and send them to him. Do innocent people get killed? yes. It is the nature of war. But do you not think that God knows this yet he still ordains wars.You seem to forget that death of the body means little to God. It simply means you return home to him. You are completely entitled to your personal feeling on the militaryBut where you error in my humble opinion is to claim war is against Gods wordwhen the bible says the opposite.You say all countries feel the same way so our reasons for going to war are all the same. Again you are wrong in this conclusion. Radical Islam has no country it is a religious war foretold from the beginning when the sons of darkness will fight against Gods children. Radical Islam if you study it has one goal to wipe out Jews and Christians. God knew end of this age would come about through war. He has foretold it and put hooks into the mouths of his enemies to cause them to war. So for you to say that War is against God is plain to not Biblical.Now I know from past discussions this will not change your mind but it is my opinion, I believe it is Biblically correct. Exd 15:3 The LORD [is] a man of war: the LORD [is] his nameExd 17:16 For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn [that] the LORD [will have] war with Amalek from generation to generation. Num 1:3 From twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armiesNum 31:3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian. Jer 21:4 Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Behold, I will turn back the weapons of war that [are] in your hands, wherewith ye fight against the king of Babylon, and [against] the Chaldeans, which besiege you without the walls, and I will assemble them into the midst of this city. Jer 49:2 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will cause an alarm of war to be heard in Rabbah of the Ammonites; and it shall be a desolate heap, and her daughters shall be burned with fire: then shall Israel be heir unto them that were his heirs, saith the LORD.Joel 3:9Proclaim this among the nations: Prepare for war! Rouse the warriors! Let all the fighting men draw near and attack.
    Kriss,Why do you think Jesus is telling us to love our enemy? You are right, we will not have peace in this world but Jesus still wants His followers to be peace makers though. We cannot be peace makers if we are doing to the same thing as the rest of the world.
     
  20. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    Faithful1, we can still love everyone especially the enemies...But however, should the sons/daughters of darkness kill every single Jewish and Gentile Christians by laying down and do nothing and let the evil win? (sons/daughters of God) God forbid...as God is no quitter.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.
     
Loading...