Making Demands On The GIft Giver

[Ernest T. Bass]

If someone (Joe) gave me a car for free, I did nothing to earn the car for Joe is just giving me that car out of his good grace, yet Joe has put conditions on receiving that free car. The conditions for me to receive the free car is that I must go to Joe's house and pick up the title and keys then go to Joe's place of business and receive the car then and there.


Do I have a right to make demands on Joe the gift giver telling Joe I do not want to do any works. I just want to sit down at my house and do nothing and Joe can being the title, keys, and car to me?

If I did go to Joe's house and get the title and keys then go to his place of business to get the car, do those works mean that I have earned the car?

 

[aspen]

This is an interesting topic. I think the answer you are looking for is 'no, of course not! We should be grateful to have a car' and we should be 'willing to buy the field to get the treasure'.

And you are right, in theory. But.....

I think this idea can be abused. The mafia will give many things for a favor in the future.......televangelists will offer a 'free gift' for a check written out to their ministry....

I would rather think of my redemptive relationship with Jesus as having all the qualities of any relationship, mutual commitment and relationship maintenance. We are not going to know each other if we do not work to build the relationship. Of course, it most resembles a child, parent relationship.....God gives us life like a father gives a child the money to buy him a birthday present - both parties are gaining through the expense of the father and the participation of the child.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This is an interesting topic. I think the answer you are looking for is 'no, of course not! We should be grateful to have a car' and we should be 'willing to buy the field to get the treasure'.

And you are right, in theory. But.....

I think this idea can be abused. The mafia will give many things for a favor in the future.......televangelists will offer a 'free gift' for a check written out to their ministry....

I would rather think of my redemptive relationship with Jesus as having all the qualities of any relationship, mutual commitment and relationship maintenance. We are not going to know each other if we do not work to build the relationship. Of course, it most resembles a child, parent relationship.....God gives us life like a father gives a child the money to buy him a birthday present - both parties are gaining through the expense of the father and the participation of the child.

But if God offers me a free gift as He has with salvation and puts conditions upon that free gift such as the works of believing, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism then those works no more earn the gift than going to get the keys, title and car. Exact same thing.


So if anyone aruges I am trying to earn/merit savlation by doing those works they must argue I am earning/meriting the car by going and getting the title keys and car.

A biblical example: Naaman was instructed to go and dip in the river 7 times and he would come away clean. God offered this cleansing by grace, Naaman did nothing to deserve it. Yet did the work of going and dippiing mean his healing was then NOT of grace but of his own merit? Who will deny his cleasning was of grace even though he had to do a work?

The point of this thread is to expose the wrong idea many have about works. It is ASSUMED by too many people that if you do a work then that work automatically means you are earning the free gift.


If I offered you out of my good grace a car up front for free, then there is NEVER anything you can do to earn what I am already offering for free. The most you can do with my offer is:

1) reject it and then you will not get it
2) accept it means accepting the conditons I attached to it. Rejecting the conditions is the same as rejecting the gift.


Neither #1 or #2 earns you the car.


So I cannot make any demands on God's and His gift telling God I do not want to work out the conditions, I just want the gift while I do nothing.

 

[Madad21]

If someone (Joe) gave me a car for free, I did nothing to earn the car for Joe is just giving me that car out of his good grace, yet Joe has put conditions on receiving that free car. The conditions for me to receive the free car is that I must go to Joe's house and pick up the title and keys then go to Joe's place of business and receive the car then and there.


Do I have a right to make demands on Joe the gift giver telling Joe I do not want to do any works. I just want to sit down at my house and do nothing and Joe can being the title, keys, and car to me?

If I did go to Joe's house and get the title and keys then go to his place of business to get the car, do those works mean that I have earned the car?

Yes its given freely and no we dont have to do anythng else. you can sit at your house and just wait till the car gets there.

But what do you consider as works? Is talking to Joe works, is defending Joe works? Is talking about Joe to others who dont know Joe works?
Wouldnt we do those things for a friend we cared about anyway?

What would happen if we went and looked after Joes sick or starving children?
Maybe when he drops of the car it suddenly has a brand new stereo in it and a nice set of mags.

What if we stood up for Joe so wholeheartedly that we were shoot dead for Joe by those who stand up for Steve.
How great would our reward be then? (I couldnt do a car thing then)



Matthew 6:19-21

“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.[SIZE=.75em] But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.[/SIZE] For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

nm

 

[Madad21]

nm

NM??!!
I completely disagree!!!
:lol:

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes its given freely and no we dont have to do anythng else. you can sit at your house and just wait till the car gets there.

But what do you consider as works? Is talking to Joe works, is defending Joe works? Is talking about Joe to others who dont know Joe works?
Wouldnt we do those things for a friend we cared about anyway?

What would happen if we went and looked after Joes sick or starving children?
Maybe when he drops of the car it suddenly has a brand new stereo in it and a nice set of mags.

What if we stood up for Joe so wholeheartedly that we were shoot dead for Joe by those who stand up for Steve.
How great would our reward be then? (I couldnt do a car thing then)

How do I get the keys title and car just by sitting at my house and doing nothing? Joe will not bring it to me, his conditons said I must go to him for the keys title and car. So do I have the right to make demands onJoe to change his conditions he has put upon his free gift?


Going to get the keys, title and car is a work, it is something done. It certainly is not sitting and 'doing nothing'.

I am not talking about Joe's children or stereo, that has nothing to so with free gifts being given with conditons.

 

[aspen]

Yeah, we are essentially saying the same thing. I agree - all I am saying is that all relationships require the participation of two or more parties. I am Catholic so I have no problem recognizing that salvation can be free AND my participation is required. I also have no problem going to the doctor and taking antibiotics to regain health when I am sick - I am aware that I am not directly healing myself. Paul spoke against works in context of Jewish leaders that placed arbitrary requirements on the Jewish people to curry (sp?) God's favor and then take credit for their own righteousness. I think some forms of Protestantism have taken these warns so far in the other direction that they have lost touch with the reality of how relationships work.

I think we make these basic ideas too complicated - it is like obsessing over the material contents of a running shoe and believing it is the key to winning a marathon......

But, unfortunately, this thread is needed, because you are right, many Christians just don't get it.

 

[Madad21]

How do I get the keys title and car just by sitting at my house and doing nothing? Joe will not bring it to me, his conditons said I must go to him for the keys title and car. So do I have the right to make demands onJoe to change his conditions he has put upon his free gift?


Going to get the keys, title and car is a work, it is something done. It certainly is not sitting and 'doing nothing'.

I am not talking about Joe's children or stereo, that has nothing to so with free gifts being given with conditons.

You've lost me man.

Salvation comes through Christ, we just accept him in to our lives there are no other conditions except belief in him.

I'll leave ya too it I think :huh:

 

[aspen]

Paul warned against the pride that is generated by people who work for their own redemption because not only was it a futile exercise, it also suggested that we were manipulating God into serving us - since God is not a Jinn, we need to recognize that we are called to serve Him, not the other way around

 

[Madad21]

Paul warned against the pride that is generated by people who work for their own redemption because not only was it a futile exercise, it also suggested that we were manipulating God into serving us - since God is not a Jinn, we need to recognize that we are called to serve Him, not the other way around

Nice Brother, well said.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You've lost me man.

Salvation comes through Christ, we just accept him in to our lives there are no other conditions except belief in him.

I'll leave ya too it I think :huh:

You posted "Yes its given freely and no we dont have to do anythng else."


The car in my OP was freely given, but that did not mean you did not have to do anything else to get the car. If you do not do the work of going to get the keys title and car then how will you ever get the free car by doing no works?

 

[FHII]

But if God offers me a free gift as He has with salvation and puts conditions upon that free gift such as the works of believing, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism then those works no more earn the gift than going to get the keys, title and car. Exact same thing.


So if anyone aruges I am trying to earn/merit savlation by doing those works they must argue I am earning/meriting the car by going and getting the title keys and car.

I see what you are saying, and I for one have never had a problem with believing, repenting, confessing or being baptized. Never said I did, and I don't know that anyone else has said otherwise. There are a few things to iron out though... For example, you seem to believe in a literal water baptism whereas I believe in the spiritual baptism which happens every time I hear his Word preached.

If you want to call these "works" fine. They are spiritual works. The "without works" that Paul talks about so frequently are works of the flesh. So nothing you do in the flesh -- the outward man -- has an effect on your salvation. They don't get you in, nor do they keep you out. That is not to say sometimes the flesh must be put under subjection (I can't very well send my spiritual man to Church and leave my flesh, can I?).

But there are other questions.... How many times to I have to go to Joe's house to pick up the keys and the title? Once? Twice? Must I do it every day?

Does Joe place other conditions on me once I've done that? Does he tell me I must wash it once a week, I have to put only premium fuel in it? No girls allowed in the car and I must never smoke in it?

God doesn't! Yes, you still have to have faith, but I wonder if there's a difference in our opinions as to what other conditions you may believe are being placed on the free gift

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yeah, we are essentially saying the same thing. I agree - all I am saying is that all relationships require the participation of two or more parties.

Yes, you cannot get the free car by doing nothing. To get a free car it takes a giver willing to give it and a reciever willing to receive it.
And if the giver puts conditions on his free gift then I do not have any right to try and get around those conditions or ask the giver to change the conditions.

Paul warned against the pride that is generated by people who work for their own redemption because not only was it a futile exercise, it also suggested that we were manipulating God into serving us - since God is not a Jinn, we need to recognize that we are called to serve Him, not the other way around

Paul said to "work out your own salvation", Phlippians 2:12.

This "working out" would be meeting the conditions God has put on His free gift of salvation.

 

[Madad21]

Yes, you cannot get the free car by doing nothing. To get a free car it takes a giver willing to give it and a reciever willing to receive it.
And if the giver puts conditions on his free gift then I do not have any right to try and get around those conditions or ask the giver to change the conditions.

Paul said to "work out your own salvation", Phlippians 2:12.

This "working out" would be meeting the conditions God has put on His free gift of salvation

ohhhhh Finally I get it,....nice one
Ive had a long shift Im going to bed.
God bless you all, have a blessed day!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I see what you are saying, and I for one have never had a problem with believing, repenting, confessing or being baptized. Never said I did, and I don't know that anyone else has said otherwise. There are a few things to iron out though... For example, you seem to believe in a literal water baptism whereas I believe in the spiritual baptism which happens every time I hear his Word preached.

If you want to call these "works" fine. They are spiritual works. The "without works" that Paul talks about so frequently are works of the flesh. So nothing you do in the flesh -- the outward man -- has an effect on your salvation. They don't get you in, nor do they keep you out. That is not to say sometimes the flesh must be put under subjection (I can't very well send my spiritual man to Church and leave my flesh, can I?).

But there are other questions.... How many times to I have to go to Joe's house to pick up the keys and the title? Once? Twice? Must I do it every day?

Does Joe place other conditions on me once I've done that? Does he tell me I must wash it once a week, I have to put only premium fuel in it? No girls allowed in the car and I must never smoke in it?

God doesn't! Yes, you still have to have faith, but I wonder if there's a difference in our opinions as to what other conditions you may believe are being placed on the free gift

So you understand that works do not earn salvation and those works must come BEFORE one can get the free gift?

One does not get the car BEFORE he goes and gets the title and keys? That is, one is not first saved, THEN do works.


What one does with the gift after he recieves it or the type of baptism that saves is not the issue here.


The issue here is doing works does not earn/merit the free gift.



So will you stick with your agreement that one does works FIRST, then afterwards receives the free gift?

 

[aspen]

'Free gift' is the worst Christian redundancy out there.....we really need to banish it from our vocabulary....it reeks of manipulation. Sorry, had to get that off my chest...

 

[FHII]

'Free gift' is the worst Christian redundancy out there.....we really need to banish it from our vocabulary....it reeks of manipulation. Sorry, had to get that off my chest...

Well, Paul used the term 3 times in Romans 5. You may want to talk to God about it.

Ernest.... I don't see a reason to further elaborate on what I said. I will say, though that grace comes by faith. I'll leave it at that for now....

 

[aspen]

Gifts are free by definition.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Gifts are free by definition.

I think it depends on perspective. There is two perspectives to a gift, the giving side and receiving side.

I can give you birthday gift. From your perspective being the receiver the gift is free to you. From my perspective that same gift that was free to you was not free to me but cost me something. Salvation is a free gift from man's receiving perspective but that gift cost Christ something, His life. So when I use the term free gift I am using the term 'free' being on the receiving end of the gift and not on the giving end.