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What is our primary sin out of which we manifest all other kinds of sins? Which sin should we repent of first? The manifested sins resulting from the primary sin, or should we repent of our primary sin first since if we repent of our primary sin, then all of the manifested sins are forgiven, even if we must suffer the consequences of the manifested sins that have been done.
For example, is driving over the speed limit a sin or a manifestation of the sin as to why I am driving over the speed limit?
I am reminded of the statement of Christ's, to get the log our of our own eye before we begin to look at the splinter of wood in another's eye.
I am reminded that we often see the log in the other person's eye and attempt to heal that person because it is easier to force someone else to change rather than ourselves.
Shalom
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JR, our differences in our belief of what the future holds, do not mean you or I are false teachers.
Only those who promote theories and doctrines that cannot be supported by scripture, fit that.
I do support my post with scripture and common sense, not wild sci-fi ideas such as the 'rapture to heaven'.
Your accusation against me; totally without any proofs, is an example of your own false beliefs being challenged.
@Joseph77, If you are throwing your hat into the ring to support Keraz with your like, then you are endorsing a false teacher.
@Keraz, your accusation that I have not presented any proofs for you, is a false accusation, as well you know. You have chosen to dismiss my proofs even though you have no idea if I am right or wrong. You accept the fallible English translation over any consideration of the actual message contained in the source Hebrew Texts, and so declare that I must be wrong because you believe that you have the better understanding.
You have adopted the theory that God is going to use a CME to burn up the planet and all that live on it except for those who will be living in Israel when this CME occurs. You claim that I present wild sci-fi ideas without acknowledging that your ideas are so out of left filed. As for the theory of the "Rapture to Heaven," for all those "righteous souls" to avoid the tribulations, either pre or mid, I do not support that as you well know.
A false argument may fool some of the people some of the time, but it does not make what I am post false as you are suggesting.
You are again shooting yourself in the foot.
?
ditto ?
By your own words, not someone else's words, you will be judged.
Same for all of us.
True, but you are saying that I am in error with respect to what Keraz is teaching.
He is reading Ezekiel 34:11-16 as a literal passage whereas I am suggesting that we have to consider the metaphorical and poetic imagery being presented in the passage to come to an understanding of what God's prophetic word is all about.
How about you go away and search out the Hebrew text and see if your paraphrasing of these verses agrees with how the translators have presented their translation of the passage.
I await your wisdom in a week or so after you have done much research with prayer on the scriptures passage in question.
I will let you speak first in this challenge.
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Why don't you read what I do say, instead of making up weird accusations.
The hit by a CME on the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, will virtually depopulate the entire Middle East. The rest of the world will mostly survive and will form a One World Govt to re-establish law and order.
We Christians will emigrate to and live in all of the holy Land. We are there in Revelation 7:9.
Ezekiel 34:11-16, is a prophecy about this gathering and will be literally fulfilled.
Have you changed your theory. I thought that i understood what you were claiming a couple of months back, but the gist of what I had said is still fairly accurate for understanding a moving target.
As for my request of Joseph77, I said that I would wait for his paraphrased understanding of the Hebrew Text before I would comment either way as to whether or not your theories are correct or not. But here you are trying to pre-empt the outcome with your comments. I can be patient for his deliberations to be undertaken. can you?
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I have intensively studied the Prophetic Word for the last 12 years. I have never changed my beliefs.
You quite wrongly said in #25, that I was promoting a world depopulation , while Israel survived. My belief, as the prophesies say; is that the entire Middle East region will be virtually wiped clean, but the rest of the world will mostly survive.
You insistence of relying only on the original languages for Bible understanding, is not right. God does not deceive His people, all the Word can be understood in most of the worlds languages today.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Very possible. It seems to take place, however, in the 4th bowl, Rev 16:8.
Rev 6:12-17 seems to be describing not a solar flare, but warfare, in which smoke rises to darken the sun. The fall of "suns" obviously are symbolic of the fall of heavenly personages, whether angels or men who had been with God.
This is a battle that will bring to an end political rule by demons on earth. Evil leaders on earth will be defeated by the coming Kingdom of God.
I don't believe the Scriptures are saying that. They're just saying that family loyalty will return--family love and concern. This has nothing to do with children teaching parents AFAIK.
The coming of Elijah was fulfilled by John the Baptist. It may be the 2 Witnesses who witness to Israel in the endtimes concerning the final judgments to come. Apparently, their testimony will extend into Europe, as well?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The problem is not repentance. This is the wrong question.
The church is not complete until the GWT. That is when Paul's end time event happens.
That is not what I accept. That is what you need to ask Keraz about. Kerez accepts the Second Coming pre-mill. Keraz accepts a literal Millennium. The church has been "put on hold" for 1000 years. I know Keraz has put a lot of thought and study into this. Most of his study I agree with. Where we part is not about salvation as far as I know. But he is not teaching any false doctrine. Just a little off on his timing. No one agrees with me much either, because Satan's deception has blinded all. It is not doctrinal nor theology. It is in the very science we are taught. The western view on science itself, has changed the Word of God in many ways. No one is immune. If the church could get past Satan's deception, they could see the true nature of God’s whole timing. It is not really about knowing. It is about trusting God. Without faith/trust, it is impossible to please God.
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No the Fourth Bowl is another CME of lesser magnitude, directed at the reprobate ungodly.
You miss the fact the Sixth Seal is the Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath. Vividly described in over 100 prophesies, as a worldwide disaster, that will set the scene for all what is prophesied to happen before Jesus Returns.
All the prophesied details, like the 'stars' falling, can be literally explained.
Far from bringing an end to evil leaders, this disaster will enable the Anti-Christ to rise to world domination.
John didn't really do much. The Elijah yet to come will.
I do not see the two Witnesses as anyone from the OT. They are just two godly men, empowered by God to preach in Israel during the time the Anti-Christ has control of all the world.
I agree, God does not confuse us, but Satan certainly does intentionally. Before anyone jumps on the band wagon of who may or may not be right, remember that time will tell the outcome of who has been deceived in their understanding of the scriptures.
I agree with you, but when Keraz's understanding is based on a faulty translation of the source text, he is being deceived. Who by? Well, from your post, you have suggested that that is Satan.
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Who is wise enough to understand this.........
.........and who has God's command to proclaim it? Jeremiah 9:12. Isaiah 50:4-7, John 12:37-41
In these last days of the present era, scripture tells us that the Church will, in general, be compromising and have many different ideas of what the future holds. But there are believers who are willing to listen to teaching based soundly on the Word, as presented to us through the prophets. It will be these believers who will be better prepared to face these end time challenges and afflictions. Especially keep in mind that God's promises are addressed to the faithful remnant who truly believe and trust in Him, true Christian believers and only that remnant will be protected on the Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath, then later, during the terrible time of Satan's domination, until the glorious Return of Jesus.
It is sad that many pastors and teachers base their eschatology on traditional doctrines of their denomination or particular theological school, and thereby fail to carefully ascertain what scripture really means. Or when a text does not fit their current beliefs, then they allegorise it, spiritualise it, culturalize it or rationalize it, to fit whatever they think how God should act.
Jeremiah 6:10 To whom shall I speak, to whom give the warning? Who will hear me? This peoples ears are blocked, they are incapable of listening. They treat God's Word as a reproach and it has no appeal to them. Isaiah 28:9-10
Isaiah 29:9-11 If you confuse yourself, you will stay confused.... for the Lord has poured upon you a spirit of deep stupor.....the prophetic vision of it all has become for you like the words in a sealed book.
1 Corinthians 1:20 Where are the men of learning now? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish.
Deuteronomy 32:29 If only they had the wisdom to discern this and understand what their end will be.
Matthew 13:10-15 Why do You speak in parables? He replied: To you it has been granted to know the secrets of the Kingdom, but not to them, for they look without seeing and listen without hearing or understanding. Happy are you that see and hear!
Jeremiah 33:3 If you call to Me, I shall answer and tell you of great and mysterious things of which you were unaware.
Isaiah 48:6 You have heard, seen the evidence, now admit the truth. From now on, I will show you new things, hidden things that you did not know before.
Isaiah 35:3-5 Steady yourself, be strong - fear not. Your God comes to save you, with His vengeance and retribution. THEN the eyes of the blind will be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped.
After the Day of the Lord's wrath: Isaiah 32:3-4
Isaiah 42:18-19 You that are deaf; hear now! You that are blind; look and see! Who is so blind and deaf as My servants and messengers, the ones who have My trust.
Isaiah 29:22b-24 This is no time for Jacob to be shamed or frightened, for they will praise Me when they see what I have done for them. The confused will gain understanding and the obstinate will accept instruction. Isaiah 44:8, Isaiah 45:19
.........and who has God's command to proclaim it? Jeremiah 9:12. Isaiah 50:4-7, John 12:37-41
In these last days of the present era, scripture tells us that the Church will, in general, be compromising and have many different ideas of what the future holds. But there are believers who are willing to listen to teaching based soundly on the Word, as presented to us through the prophets. It will be these believers who will be better prepared to face these end time challenges and afflictions. Especially keep in mind that God's promises are addressed to the faithful remnant who truly believe and trust in Him, true Christian believers and only that remnant will be protected on the Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath, then later, during the terrible time of Satan's domination, until the glorious Return of Jesus.
It is sad that many pastors and teachers base their eschatology on traditional doctrines of their denomination or particular theological school, and thereby fail to carefully ascertain what scripture really means. Or when a text does not fit their current beliefs, then they allegorise it, spiritualise it, culturalize it or rationalize it, to fit whatever they think how God should act.
Jeremiah 6:10 To whom shall I speak, to whom give the warning? Who will hear me? This peoples ears are blocked, they are incapable of listening. They treat God's Word as a reproach and it has no appeal to them. Isaiah 28:9-10
Isaiah 29:9-11 If you confuse yourself, you will stay confused.... for the Lord has poured upon you a spirit of deep stupor.....the prophetic vision of it all has become for you like the words in a sealed book.
1 Corinthians 1:20 Where are the men of learning now? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish.
Deuteronomy 32:29 If only they had the wisdom to discern this and understand what their end will be.
Matthew 13:10-15 Why do You speak in parables? He replied: To you it has been granted to know the secrets of the Kingdom, but not to them, for they look without seeing and listen without hearing or understanding. Happy are you that see and hear!
Jeremiah 33:3 If you call to Me, I shall answer and tell you of great and mysterious things of which you were unaware.
Isaiah 48:6 You have heard, seen the evidence, now admit the truth. From now on, I will show you new things, hidden things that you did not know before.
Isaiah 35:3-5 Steady yourself, be strong - fear not. Your God comes to save you, with His vengeance and retribution. THEN the eyes of the blind will be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped.
After the Day of the Lord's wrath: Isaiah 32:3-4
Isaiah 42:18-19 You that are deaf; hear now! You that are blind; look and see! Who is so blind and deaf as My servants and messengers, the ones who have My trust.
Isaiah 29:22b-24 This is no time for Jacob to be shamed or frightened, for they will praise Me when they see what I have done for them. The confused will gain understanding and the obstinate will accept instruction. Isaiah 44:8, Isaiah 45:19
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I think the first step would be to identify one's relationship in Christ. Then instead of claiming we are right, attempt to rule out what is wrong, in humbleness. We can take John the Baptist as an example. For some reason he seemed to not even know who Jesus would be. Even though we are told the Holy Spirit caused him to leap in his mother's room when a relative by the name of Mary announced the birth of Jesus. Their paths seemed to have never crossed after birth. Nor did John ever realize his father's inheritance as a priest in the temple. John ended up growing up in the wilderness and no one of authority would give him the time of day, much less have anything to do with his message. Yet John did exactly as God told him with the knowledge John had.
Who would listen to God’s messenger today, who claims the soon return and the message goes against every theology known to man? Satan has deceived the church even more so then the Pharisees and Sadducees were in their religious beliefs.
The purpose of being right is so ingrained even in our science and theology, that a new concept always has to go through a littany of acceptances. Even if a truth comes from Scripture. Because even Scripture has been so analyzed, that the obvious cannot be seen. There has to be a deeper meaning than just a mundane simple explanation like a wild man baptizing and condemning the religious leaders of his day in a muddy river.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I see the Sixth Seal as a prolepsis of the Coming of Christ. But it is used in the vision as a set up for the following visions of the 7 trumpets, which also bring us up to the 2nd Coming. So it is indeed a vision, using symbols that indicate the 2nd Coming.
A sun darkened by the smoke of fields burning was, I think, a common image used by prophets to depict invasions and wars. It is not too cryptic to decipher for the common man.
The falling of stars clearly was not depicting actual "stars" such as actual suns! A sun is often many times bigger than the earth, and would completely destroy the earth if it hit it.
I think "stars" would indicate any visible object in the night sky, such as "falling stars." And they would likely represent the falling of angels from heaven, or religious people who have apostacized.
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