Man is NOT a free moral agent - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby

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Patrick1966

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Can we choose to come to God unless he first calls us?

Yes...

I don't share your view but I'm willing to be persuaded.

I believe there are two types of people in this world (wheat & tares) and that the wheats will naturally hear and follow Jesus whereas the tares, as confirmed by 2 Corinthians 4:4 (and others),are precluded from going to Jesus unless and until God wills them to do so.

Also, Paul spoke of a "hardening" of Israel to prevent some Jews from coming to the belief in Christ so, no, I do not believe "tares" or some Jews (and perhaps others) can go to God on their own.
 
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Patrick1966

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Christ is solely responsible for mankind's salvation and because of such, He decides when He will come to each person.

The presence of evil seems to be an integral part of our development and edification. Removing it too soon by calling all people to Jesus before the time might be like pulling a pie out of the oven before it's done.
 

Patrick1966

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This guy has had a bug in him from the moment he responded to a post of mine. He appears to want to elevate himself to draw weak Christians after himself. The Bible warns of such. And he himself should be warned. The hills will be brought down, and the valleys raised up. And the Lord will come back in a plain, where all are equal before the Lord. We should *never* ever ever try to steal glory from Christ. We are his servants and servants to one another. None is more important than the other.

Jesus tells us that the greatest in Heaven is the most humble in Heaven. We can feel blessed and thankful to know the good news but NEVER can we feel superior to another for receiving the gift of understanding.
 
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Patrick1966

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The presence of evil seems to be an integral part of our development and edification. Removing it too soon by calling all people to Jesus before the time might be like pulling a pie out of the oven before it's done.

By the way, sorry for the advanced technical talk.
 

Episkopos

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I don't share your view but I'm willing to be persuaded.

I believe there are two types of people in this world (wheat & tares) and that the wheats will naturally hear and follow Jesus whereas the tares, as confirmed by 2 Corinthians 4:4 (and others),are precluded from going to Jesus unless and until God wills them to do so.

Also, Paul spoke of a "hardening" of Israel to prevent some Jews from coming to the belief in Christ so, no, I do not believe "tares" or some Jews (and perhaps others) can go to God on their own.
We all can obey the commandments to the limits of our own abilities...otherwise they would not be called commandments...more like observations. We can't do this perfectly...but we can align ourselves with God's will by repenting of any attitude that is not submitted to His will. If that was not possible we would not be told to repent. Repentance too then would be a phenomena that no one could produce.

God deemed people in the OT righteous by human faith...and even into the NT. We have our own responsibility before God otherwise there would be no future judgment.
 

Patrick1966

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We all can obey the commandments to the limits of our own abilities...otherwise they would not be called commandments...more like observations. We can't do this perfectly...but we can align ourselves with God's will by repenting of any attitude that is not submitted to His will. If that was not possible we would not be told to repent. Repentance too then would be a phenomena that no one could produce.

God deemed people in the OT righteous by human faith...and even into the NT. We have our own responsibility before God otherwise there would be no future judgment.

I struggle with sin. I drink too much. In the moment I forget myself and speak harshly to people that I believe were unkind to me. Believe me, I KNOW that I need Jesus because he's the ONLY one that can fix me.
 

FaithWillDo

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The presence of evil seems to be an integral part of our development and edification. Removing it too soon by calling all people to Jesus before the time might be like pulling a pie out of the oven before it's done.
Dear Patrick1966,
Yes! God uses evil for His good purposes. Scripture teaches that God created evil and that He uses it to humble us.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.


God even created Satan to be mankind's destroyer:

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

After God has finished using evil, mankind will have a full knowledge of evil so that when Christ shows us the goodness of God, we can have a full appreciation for it. I believe this is God's ultimate purpose for creating and using evil in this world.

I also agree with your "pie in the oven" comment. Here is a scripture that best supports that mankind must be fully baked with evil before Christ comes to us and saves us:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I am aware that you and others on the forum do not understand this scripture as a teaching on the pathway to salvation the Elect will travel, however, I still wanted to point it out because the truth it teaches matches so closely to your pie in the oven comment.

In the verse, the phrase "this gospel of the kingdom" is not referring to the Gospel of Christ. It is referring to the "another gospel" Paul mentions below:

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

This "another gospel" is the one that Satan and his ministers in apostate church teach. This false gospel comes from the spirit of anti-Christ which indwells the churches the Apostles started. That spirit is still alive and well in the churches today. This is the apostasy Paul said would come and is the one Paul warned (with tears) everyone in his churches for 3 years about its coming.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Paul's knowledge of the coming apostasy greatly distressed Paul because he loved the churches he started. However, Paul knew that it was God's "will" for the apostasy to come so he accepted it.

Because the apostasy came and devoured the church, the parables and the end-time prophecies teach its coming. It is this apostasy that kills the saints and is why Satan is called the destroyer and the crooked serpent:

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Jer 4:7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant
(the church is devoured and no one is spared).

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Satan is called the "crooked serpent" because his gospel teaches the crooked way of "works". Mixing "works" with faith is the sin that leads to death and is how Satan kills the saints.

After an Elect believer has fully accepted Satan's "another gospel" and has spiritually died, they will be made "worse than the first (Mat 12:43-45) and will become a "Man of Sin" (the Seven Headed beast). This fallen away spiritual condition is the fully baked pie of evil that God wants everyone to experience before He gives us the gift of salvation. Our time as a Man of Sin is mankind's "Day of Evil":

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the Day of Evil.

Jer 17:17 Be not a terror unto me: thou art my hope in the Day of Evil.


Because the Elect fall away and accept Satan's "another gospel", it is necessary for a person to come to them in the spirit of Elijah with the call to repent from their works. John the Baptist fulfilled this role for the Nation of Israel and converted Elect believers will fulfill this role for the unconverted Gentile Elect. With the believer's repentance, they will begin solely approaching Christ by faith. When they do, it will make the path "straight" for Christ to come with the Latter Rain and salvation.

So you are right; mankind must experience evil and wait until that "pie" is fully baked until Christ "comes again" with our gift of salvation.

Joe
 
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Patrick1966

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Dear Patrick1966,
Yes! God uses evil for His good purposes. Scripture teaches that God created evil and that He uses it to humble us.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.


God even created Satan to be mankind's destroyer:

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

After God has finished using evil, mankind will have a full knowledge of evil so that when Christ shows us the goodness of God, we can have a full appreciation for it. I believe this is God's ultimate purpose for creating and using evil in this world.

I also agree with your "pie in the oven" comment. Here is a scripture that best supports that mankind must be fully baked with evil before Christ comes to us and saves us:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I am aware that you and others on the forum do not understand this scripture as a teaching on the pathway to salvation the Elect will travel, however, I still wanted to point it out because the truth it teaches matches so closely to your pie in the oven comment.

In the verse, the phrase "this gospel of the kingdom" is not referring to the Gospel of Christ. It is referring to the "another gospel" Paul mentions below:

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

This "another gospel" is the one the Satan and his ministers in apostate church teach. This false gospel comes from the spirit of anti-Christ which indwells the churches the Apostles started. That spirit is still alive and well in the churches today. This is the apostasy Paul said would come and is the one Paul warned (with tears) everyone in his churches for 3 years about its coming.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Paul's knowledge of the coming apostasy greatly distressed Paul because he loved the churches he started. However, Paul knew that it was God's "will" for the apostasy to come so he accepted it.

Because the apostasy came and devoured the church, the parables and the end-time prophecies teach its coming. It is this apostasy that kills the saints and is why Satan is called the destroyer and the crooked serpent:

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Jer 4:7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant
(the church is devoured and no one is spared).

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Satan is called the "crooked serpent" because his gospel teaches the crooked way of "works". Mixing "works" with faith is the sin that leads to death and is how Satan kills the saints.

After an Elect believer has fully accepted Satan's "another gospel" and has spiritually died, they will be made "worse than the first (Mat 12:43-45) and will become a "Man of Sin" (the Seven Headed beast). This fallen away spiritual condition is the fully baked pie of evil that God wants everyone to experience before He gives us the gift of salvation. Our time as a Man of Sin is mankind's "Day of Evil":

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the Day of Evil.

Jer 17:17 Be not a terror unto me: thou art my hope in the Day of Evil.


Because the Elect fall away and accept Satan's "another gospel", it is necessary for a person to come to them in the spirit of Elijah with the call to repent from their works. John the Baptist fulfilled this role for the Nation of Israel and converted Elect believers will fulfill this role for the unconverted Gentile Elect. With the believer's repentance, they will begin solely approaching Christ by faith. When they do, it will make the path "straight" for Christ to come with the Latter Rain and salvation.

So you are right; mankind must experience evil and wait until that "pie" is fully baked until Christ "comes again" with our gift of salvation.

Joe

This is an amazing, thought-provoking, post. I'm going to copy and read it again later because it's a lot to digest and I want to understand perfectly. Thank you my brother!
 

FaithWillDo

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1 No

2 I think "coming" to God is a natural response of everyone once God has called them so, yes, those who God has called willingly go to him sort of like when a fish is placed in water it automatically begins swimming.

3 Yes

4 God's
Dear Patrick1966,
You said:
I think "coming" to God is a natural response of everyone once God has called them so, yes, those who God has called willingly go to him sort of like when a fish is placed in water it automatically begins swimming.

You are on the right track with this statement. But I do want to add this:

When Christ "calls" a person out from the world, He does so by giving them the Early Rain (the Holy Spirit of Promise, the earnest amount, Eph 1:13-14). With the Spirit within them, they will (100% of the time) make the confession of faith. They will no longer be able to call Jesus accursed:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

The gift of the Early Rain is how Christ prepares their heart and gives them the answer of their tongue:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

When Christ is ready to call a person into the church, He will come to them and give them the Early Rain. This is the ONLY way a person can be called out from the world and make a confession of faith. Mankind's supposed "free will" ability to "choose" Christ is a lie from Satan and is a "work" which is the crooked way.

If Christ wanted the entire world to enter the church TODAY, He could easily cause it to happen. No one can resist the "will" and work of God:


Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

However, Christ has a plan and it does not include everyone being saved in this age. Most of mankind is not called into the church during this age but "many" are. And from those "many", a "few" have been chosen from the foundation of the world to be saved as a First Fruit. They are considered blessed because they did nothing to deserve their early salvation. And because they are blessed, Christ will come to them a second time (during their "Day of Evil") and pour out the Latter Rain and convert them. This is the moment of salvation. Everyone will "fall away" shortly after they receive the Early Rain.

Mankind is totally at the mercy of Christ to save us, even the timing of our salvation.

Joe
 
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Randy Kluth

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Jesus tells us that the greatest in Heaven is the most humble in Heaven. We can feel blessed and thankful to know the good news but NEVER can we feel superior to another for receiving the gift of understanding.
Yes, I think God just wants us to get along. He loves all His kids, and finds great worth in every one of His kids because He created each one for a vital purpose.
FWIW, he's on my "ignore" list. Shake the dust, save your pearls, and move on. He's unreachable.
Maybe I gave him too much credit. He claimed he was buddies with a large number of people on multiple forums, including moderators--at least that seemed to be the insinuation. I think he said this to sort of cast me and my statements aside as "out of the mainstream."

I am very opinionated, but not hateful. He seems to have issues, which is not horrible except that he is unapologetic and unwilling to humble himself.
 
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Randy Kluth

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There are some insightful, quality people like @St. SteVen I have unfortunately decided to put a lot of members on "ignore" because they don't teach me anything nor are they willing to be taught. I'm here to share and learn. If they're not, on "ignore" they go.
I fully understand, and think there is wisdom in that--it's sort of obeying God when He said to "shake the dust off our feet."

But I tend to go in the opposite direction, holding out for the smallest sign of hope. And sometimes that gets me into trouble, because I'm as vulnerable as anybody else to pride and the desire to "get even." ;)

Thanks for sharing, Patrick. Unless you do, I get the false idea that those who attack me are part of an enormous mob of "Christians" who agree with them! ;) Sometimes it's a sin to remain silent, even if it means we have to get a little "dirty" to get involved in a mud fight. Take care....
 
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Patrick1966

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I fully understand, and think there is wisdom in that--it's sort of obeying God when He said to "shake the dust off our feet."

But I tend to go in the opposite direction, holding out for the smallest sign of hope. And sometimes that gets me into trouble, because I'm as vulnerable as anybody else to pride and the desire to "get even." ;)

Thanks for sharing, Patrick. Unless you do, I get the false idea that those who attack me are part of an enormous mob of "Christians" who agree with them! ;) Sometimes it's a sin to remain silent, even if it means we have to get a little "dirty" to get involved in a mud fight. Take care....
Their pride gets in the way. It's that simple.
 
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Behold

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Their pride gets in the way. It's that simple.


Patrick1966


Are you still into these known NT denying, Cross Rejecting, cult teachings?

1.) No eternal Hell

2. ) No Devil (He is gone, no longer around)

3. ) No Free Will

4.) Everyone will eventually go to Heaven... also known as ( THE Universal Salvation of the Christ Rejecting Damned )


= Let us know.
 

Hillsage

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I was in Colorado, with no internet for 4 days, so missed the start of this thread. I hate starting in this late, but I'm going to text the latest URL of Preston Eby's monthly bible studies. He has just started a new series on this very subject. I know it's more than a 'post' length read, but I was very impressed with lesson 1.

 
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Gottservant

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Excerpted from:
Is Man A Free Moral Agent?
by J. Preston Eby

[...]

Man has free will, but it is constantly being eroded. Therefore the gift of God, grows in value. Moreover, because it grows in value, despite our free will being eroded, we are inspired to work, in ways we had not done before - that we might obtain the gift of God in fulness.
 

Behold

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we are inspired to work, in ways we had not done before - that we might obtain the gift of God in fulness.


You do not WORK....for a GIFT.

Let me say that again.

ITS A GIFT........... you don't WORK.......for a GIFT.

Gift : something GIVEN willingly to someone, without Payment.

Jesus on the CROSS, is God's = "GIFT of Salvation".
Jesus on the CROSS, is God's = "GIFT of Salvation".
Jesus on the CROSS, is God's= "GIFT of Salvation".

You don't WORK for this : GIFT.

You receive it : "by FAITH".
 
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Gottservant

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You do not WORK....for a GIFT.

Let me say that again.

ITS A GIFT........... you don't WORK.......for a GIFT.

Gift : something GIVEN willingly to someone, without Payment.

Jesus on the CROSS, is God's = "GIFT of Salvation".
Jesus on the CROSS, is God's = "GIFT of Salvation".
Jesus on the CROSS, is God's= "GIFT of Salvation".

You don't WORK for this : GIFT.

You receive it : "by FAITH".
Yes, but the point is not to "receive a gift", the point is the gift inspires something, that nothing else can.

It is a "precious" gift.

Someone who says "the point of life is to receive a gift" is asinine in the extreme.
 

Behold

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Yes, but the point is not to "receive a gift", the point is the gift inspires something, that nothing else can.

.

The Cross of Christ is God's Gift of Salvation.

This gift forgives all your sin.

Jesus said, that you will die in your sin, if you do not go to the CROSS, believing in Him, as your Savior..

Its your SIN that keeps you out of heaven, after you die.
Its your SIN that keeps you from being a Son/Daughter of God, while you are alive.

You have to let God deal with your sin for you, through the Cross of Christ......as this is God's ""Gift of Salvation"" to you that you RECEIVE by Faith.

Everyone who went to Hell today, and tomorrow, didnt have the "Gift of Salvation".
They all died in UNBELIEF.......never born again.

You Give God your faith in Christ, and God gives you His "Gift of Salvation" = that is Christ dying for all your sin on The Cross.