Man is NOT a free moral agent - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby

[Randy Kluth]

There is no verse in the NT, where the CROSS is found, that even suggests that God will not take a sinner, unless they COMMIT to follow Christ, first.
What Cult has trained you to teach that one, Randy?

I've been adding Scriptures to my last post, and I could keep adding them. You are *very unScriptural* in your denial that in order to receive Christ we must 1st *choose* to receive him, thus abandoning our old life. The Gospel is based on the *preaching* of a choice to us, to accept Christ, to receive Christ, or not. It's really beyond the pale that you would deny this! What are you denying, that we have a Free Will? In that case, what does it matter? You're a robot.

You seem to be proposing my view as follows. One must choose Christ, and then one must live a Christian life, in order to ultimately be Saved. This is never what I have said--not even remotely!

What I've said consistently and continually is that we choose to receive the Gospel of Christ's Grace, and in so doing we are Saved. There is nothing unScriptural about this! Your constant unrelenting attacks on me seems to be a personal issue with you, wanting to prejudge what my intentions are, that they are "earning Salvation by Works." I have never ever ever said that!

I have only said that we must receive Christ and all that that means. In other words, we don't receive a "false Christ." You are a horrible example of a "brotherly Christian." You are completely judgmental, as well as a legalist. You project your own ways onto me, calling me a Legalist! ;)

 

[St. SteVen]

Good post, thanks.
These bits stood out to me.

In my view, God made Man to be able to do good, and that didn't change with the Fall.

Yes. That explains why the unregenerate person can do good works.

There is no question in my mind that no matter how much good we do we still require Christ's work of atonement in order for us to "get to heaven."

AMEN

When God speaks, our conscience recognizes the need to respond.

Agree.

But the conscience is the operation of our spirit in responding to God's voice.

Agree.

 

[Behold]

in order to receive Christ we must 1st *choose* to receive him, thus abandoning our old life.

Now you are redefining your original post.
You are trying to soften it, and make it sound better, and that is dishonest.

See, you first post said this...

Randy Kluth said:
1) Yes, God requires a commitment of the new convert--a commitment to follow Christ,


But now you are reinvented that post into...>"choose to receive him, and abandoning our old life"

So, in the REVISED VERSION of your heresy, the ""requires a commitment' ..(to be saved) . has been deleted from your verse.

Not good, Randy.

 

[St. SteVen]

3) You're insulting form of disagreement is just as bad as it has always been. You should reflect a "New Nature" yourself! If you want to disagree firmly, fine. The rest is unnecessary.

Agree.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Agree.

This guy has had a bug in him from the moment he responded to a post of mine. He appears to want to elevate himself to draw weak Christians after himself. The Bible warns of such. And he himself should be warned. The hills will be brought down, and the valleys raised up. And the Lord will come back in a plain, where all are equal before the Lord. We should *never* ever ever try to steal glory from Christ. We are his servants and servants to one another. None is more important than the other.

 

[Behold]

What I've said consistently and continually is that we choose to receive the Gospel of Christ's Grace, and in so doing we are Saved.

Really?

But here is what you said the first time.. before you revised it again.
Here you go.....Lets look at the Original Kluth Text.. that you said God requires BEFORE HE WILL SAVE THE SINNER.

LOOK... Its Galatians 1:8 again.

= Randy Kluth said:
1) Yes, God requires a commitment of the new convert--a commitment to follow Christ,

 

[Behold]

This guy has had a bug in him from the moment he responded to a post of mine.

False insinuation didn't help you last time, ether., Randy.
Thats when you posted that word "Scoundrel", toward me in your post.
Remember, ??
I do.

You're interesting, in a certain way..........because you will demand that we are nice to you, and then you'll immediately post something offensive toward someone, soon after....

 

[Behold]

He appears to want to elevate himself to draw weak Christians after himself.

More sniping from the ditch of your carnal mind?

Let me give you a reality check, Randy.
If i was "fishing for weak believers"... then i'd put the hook in your mouth, first.
Believe it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

False insinuation didn't help you last time, ether., Randy.
Thats when you posted that word "Scoundrel", toward me in your post.
Remember, ??
I do.

You're interesting, in a certain way..........because you will demand that we are nice to you, and then you'll immediately post something offensive toward someone, soon after....

Yes, I'm trying to induce you to be friendly. I'd rather be friends and brothers. That can't happen if you persist in being rude. I hold no grudges whatsoever, and you shouldn't either. "Keep no record of wrongs."

 

[Behold]

Yes, I'm trying to induce you to be friendly. I'd rather be friends and brothers.

You're a posted Liar.

In the last 2 posts, you said i have a "bug" and that im trying to "draw weak believers to myself".

So, that is your "friends and brothers'...
That is your "Christ's Love" that you demand we show you?

You're a person with some issues, ... and that is not a myth, Randy.

 

[Randy Kluth]

More sniping from the ditch of your carnal mind?

Let me give you a reality check, Randy.
If i was "fishing for weak believers"... then i'd put the hook in your mouth, first.
Believe it.

We could probably trade insults all day long, but that isn't my purpose, nor is this the place. We should just content ourselves with encouraging one another to live in Christ. But when someone isn't willing to do that, it's alright to call him out on it, if our motive is to help him--not destroy him.

We are told in the Scriptures to take note of brothers who are sort of wandering off track, to be aware that some will try to elevate themselves to get people to follow after them.

Jude 1.16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

Acts 20.30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

2 Thes 3.14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.

 

[Behold]

We could probably trade insults all day long, but that isn't my purpose,

Your purpose now is to try to hide what you've been saying.
Your "Purpose" now is "damage control", and its not going to help you.

Listen, im not involved with your personal feelings.
Feel as you want to feel.
Like or dislike, is your Freewill.
We are commanded to love, not to like.

But, dont post that a sinner, has to come to Christ , committing to a self effort contract, first.

Just stop teaching that error., as the rest of what you have theologically wrong, in general, does not insult the Cross.
If you find another way to do it, then we get to share posts, again.
Or, if you find my Threads, and you are welcome there, but, once your "works and self effort" ""contract to be accepted by God"", comes out, then its not going to be an "agreement" we will be able to share.

See you there.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your purpose now is to try to hide what you've been saying.
Your "Purpose" now is "damage control", and its not going to help you.

Listen, im not involved with your personal feelings.
Feel as you want to feel.
Like or dislike, is your Freewill.
We are commanded to love, not to like.

But, dont post that a sinner, has to come to Christ , committing to a self effort contract, first.

Sorry, I never said that! I never said we have to "commit to a self effort." That is your prejudgment of what you thought I meant. But I never ever ever said that. You said that I said it. It is false--absolutely false. Please quote where I said that--not just where you *think* I *meant* that!

I've long said, and consistently said, that we must indeed *choose.* Choice is not a "self-effort," as you seem to imply. Choice is rather acceptance of a proposition from the word of God that we commit to Christ. Why you call that "Self Effort" I don't know, except that you are very judgmental? You refuse to take my word for what I say I mean. That becomes a "slander" on your part, because I never said what you said I said.

 

[Behold]

In which case absolutely everyone would receive this gift. After all God desires the salvation of all mankind. But since the majority will not believe, it should be obvious that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel).

Some would think that you mean, that the Gift of Faith, is that God causes some to "Hear" and as Calvinist believe, God won't cause those who are "predestined" to Hell, to believe. = God won't allow them to Believe.

Now, if you ask a Calvinist or similar......>"How can God. be Just or RIGHT, to send an unbeliever to Hell, for their unbelief....If God wont allow (causes) them to die in unbelief........wont let them believe.

Ive yet to meet a John Calvinist who can answer that question, with anything that sounds like its connected to "God is Love", or Sanity.

 

[Behold]

Sorry, I never said that! I never said we have to "commit to a self effort." That is your prejudgment of what you thought I meant.

I dont blame you for changing the subject., as we dont want you to use the word "scoundrel" or "bug" again....."brother."

Right?

As you are all about "God's Love", aren't you Randy?
Ive no doubt.
Not at all...

So, Like i told you 45 mins ago.......No sinner comes to the Cross with this understanding that you have defined they agree to accept..

Not one sinner who is being saved right this second, in this world, has in his mind that they are acknowledging that they agree to "change natures".

In fact, they could not even explain what a "changed Nature" is.....much less agree to the "contract".

They can't possibly acknowledge and agree to do, what the have no understanding of, yet....Randy.

"changed nature"......is from Peter's epistle,...?????? and a Christian might understand it......or not.
1CenturyLady, loves to talk about that "divine nature" verse.......from Peter's Epistle.
But an unbeliever, does not, know anything about any of that YET.


Randy Kluth said....

"""And that's because the acceptance of Christ's atonement means that we acknowledge our need to "change natures,"""

 

[Randy Kluth]

I'd just like to state for clarity what "choice" to receive Christ means. It is not a "Self Effort" in the sense that we completely on our own earn our own Salvation. Rather, it is indeed a choice *we* make, indicating that it is coming from our Self.

But it is not a Self-Effort in that it is not the operation of Self apart from God's word to our heart, nor apart from the work of Christ himself, who reaches out to us with his verbal proposition to our conscience. "We love because he 1st loved us."

It is indeed *we* who must respond. Those who deny that we can respond or should respond are into the realm of absurdity, arguing over mere "words." To respond with our Self does not automatically imply "Self Effort."

When we respond with our Self to a proposition that is initiated by another, our Self choice is made in conjunction with that other. It is not a Self Effort.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No sinner comes to the Cross with this understanding that you have defined they agree to accept..

Not one sinner who is being saved right this second, in this world, has in his mind that they are acknowledging that they agree to "change natures".

I already proved that false, and there's no need to repeat. Go back and read the Scriptures I added.

In fact, they could not even explain what a "changed Nature" is.....much less agree to the "contract".

They can't possibly acknowledge and agree to do, what the have no understanding of, yet....Randy.

Of course they do. The exact moment God's word penetrates the human conscience a person receives a revelation of what "holiness" is. They may not have experienced it regularly in their lives, and they certainly haven't understood it as part of their character, since they are only just becoming "Born Again." But they do know what it is they are responding to.

They are accepting Christ. If you don't believe they can know who it is they are accepting you are living in the land of absurdity.

Go ahead and preach your false Gospel of choosing something a person can't know or understand. But my answer will always be the same. The Gospel is the good news of Christ. That means people can understand the message, including unbelievers who then wish to be saved.

 

[Behold]

I'd just like to state for clarity what "choice" to receive Christ means. It is not a "Self Effort" in the sense that we completely on our own earn our own Salvation. Rather, it is indeed a choice *we* make, indicating that it is coming from our Self.

But it is not a Self-Effort in that it is not the operation of Self apart from God's word to our heart, nor apart from the work of Christ himself, who reaches out to us with his verbal proposition to our conscience. "We love because he 1st loved us."

It is indeed *we* who must respond. Those who deny that we can respond or should respond are into the realm of absurdity, arguing over mere "words." To respond with our Self does not automatically imply "Self Effort."

When we respond with our Self to a proposition that is initiated by another, our Self choice is made in conjunction with that other. It is not a Self Effort.

Well, you taught the meaning of vague meets obtuse, in that post.

So, here is the thing... its just one.

If you want to teach, that, "after we are born again" .. God needs some commitment, as "be holy as i am holy", and "present your body as a living sacrifice to God, which is your reasonable service".....all that........or if you want to teach that "once we understand we are a "new creation in Christ", and have the Divine Nature..........then we need to .......

Then go for it.
As "that'll preach".

Just dont put any of that BEFORE the person is saved, in any way, shape, or form, as when you do that you are making the Gift of God, a "contract",... that isn't His Gift.

A.) Jesus is Salvation.

"The end".

See, God already STAKED INTO THE GROUND the eternal Contract.....>Its the Cross of Christ...the "new Covenant".. that is written in the BLOOD OF JESUS.

He made this contract ALIVE... 2000 yrs ago.

We RECEIVE IT by Faith.

We get this Contract, this GIfT of Salvation, when we come to God as "Yet a sinner" and give God our Faith in Christ".

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well, you taught the meaning of vague meets obtuse, in that post.

So, here is the thing... its just one.

If you want to teach, that, "after we are born again" .. God needs some commitment, as "be holy as i am holy", and "present your body as a living sacrifice to God, which is your reasonable service".....all that........or if you want to teach that "once we understand we are a "new creation in Christ", and have the Divine Nature..........then we need to .......

Then go for it.
As "that'll preach".

Just dont put any of that BEFORE the person is saved, in any way, shape, or form, as when you do that you are making the Gift of God, a "contract",... that isn't His Gift.

A.) Jesus is Salvation.

"The end".

See, God already STAKED INTO THE GROUND the eternal Contract.....>Its the Cross of Christ...the "new Covenant".. that is written in the BLOOD OF JESUS.

He made this contract ALIVE... 2000 yrs ago.

We RECEIVE IT by Faith.

We get this Contract, this GIfT of Salvation, when we come to God as "Yet a sinner" and give God our Faith in Christ".

Not interested in your rudeness. Get back with me when you stop calling me a "liar," and impugning things to me that I never said, claiming I'm modifying things to "recover," etc. I don't see any good fruit in you. But hope springs eternal, brother. Show me grace, and then teach it--not the reverse. I'll be ready when you come down to earth, and stop trying to put your head up there above everybody else. Learn what "servanthood" means.

 

[Behold]

Go ahead and preach your false Gospel

Paul's Gospel is not false.
I only preach/teach Pauline Theology.
Im the one that made that phrase well known on every Christian forum.

Thats a fact.

Its interesting, and i give the Glory to God for causing it..., but...when i show up, and work a while on a Forum, there is a lot of talk about "Paul", that starts to show up.
And what is even better, is that a lot more Threads and posts talk about "Salvation"., even tho so many are not related to God's Salvation.
It is a fact that a lot of Salvation Threads arrive, after i do.
And what is even better is that the word "CROSS" suddenly starts appearing in people's mouths.. and posts.

Ive seen this occur, for quite a while now.
Its a beautiful thing..
= Thank you Jesus.
He is so wonderful, so beautiful, so amazing.

Also, Randy, I dont expect you to understand what i just told you., about Paul's Gospel not being false.

So, ill keep an eye out for your """""self effort contract into heaven""", posts.
Im certain you'll have one up and running again, soon.

See you there.