Man is NOT a free moral agent - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby

[Behold]

Not interested in your rudeness. Get back with me when you stop calling me a "liar,"

You just "Lied" when you said my "gospel is false".

So, if you lie, what does that make you , Randy?

 

[Randy Kluth]

You just "Lied" when you said my "gospel is false".

So, if you lie, what does that make you , Randy?

It is not hard to be friends with me, brother. You just have to come down off of your "high horse."

 

[Randy Kluth]

Paul's Gospel is not false.
I only preach/teach Pauline Theology.
Im the one that made that phrase well known on every Christian forum.

Thats a fact.

Its interesting, and i give the Glory to God for causing it..., but...when i show up, and work a while on a Forum, there is a lot of talk about "Paul", that starts to show up.

Oh yea, you're the "driver" of truth. "Truth" shows up when you get involved?

And what is even better, is that a lot more Threads and posts talk about "Salvation"., even tho so many are not related to God's Salvation.
It is a fact that a lot of Salvation Threads arrive, after i do.

It's no miracle that people respond to any post, particularly when it is controversial.

So, ill keep an eye out for your """""self effort contract into heaven""", posts.
Im certain you'll have one up and running again, soon.

That's dishonest--please quote where I have said this? It really doesn't matter what you *think* I have said, or even what you *want to believe* that I have said. What matters is what I *say* I meant. But you ignore that.

I really don't want to make light of this controversy, because it really has some history, dating back to at the very least Luther's "Bondage of the Will," and perhaps even earlier with Augustine's Predestination. The relationship between our Free Choice and Grace is a worthy subject--otherwise I would not have engaged you so long.

The one problem I have with you is your cantankerous nature--you just won't give up your hostility. You should try. The extracurricular language of contempt is unworthy of you as a Christian. Perhaps nobody has ever explained that to you before?

 

[Behold]

It is not hard to be friends with me, brother. You just have to come down off of your "high horse."

And you'd have to stop lying.

 

[Behold]

The one problem I have with you is your cantankerous nature--you just won't give up your hostility.

Hostility?
Not at all.
You're just confused. See, you feel that after you accused me of trying to deceive and captivate "weak believers", im now obligated to be your sweetest friend on the Forum.
So, as i said, you are interesting like that Randy Kluth.
Really interesting mentality.
Absolutely.

Also,
I appreciate that you love to hear yourself talk.
It your ministry., other then Legalism.

So, post a few more chats to yourself today..... as i achieved here, what was necessary, already.


And i'll be around for you again later.

You can count on me.

 

[Randy Kluth]

And you'd have to stop lying.

I have *never* lied to you.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hostility?...

You can count on me.

Not interested! I'm not "unfriendly" when I call you out for your "unfriendliness." I'm not "unloving" when I call you out for misrepresenting me, when you try to capture what my intent is, while ignoring what I say I meant. Truth bites, but it also heals.

 

[St. SteVen]

@Randy Kluth
Some posters will never stop until you give them the last word.
Every time you reply, they will as well.

 

[Behold]

1) Can we choose to come to God unless he first calls us?
2)

Can we choose to come to God unless he first calls us?

Yes.

You can choose to do anything you want as Free Will is actually = Choice


2) Is coming to God an act of our own "free will" choice?


If by "coming to God" you mean.......for Salvation.

Well, there is..>"the hearing of Faith". "Faith comes by hearing". "The Gospel".

And that is when a person hears the gospel, and the Holy Spirit opens their understanding, so that they understand that its TRUE. This is revelation knowledge, and is not just the mind..its in your heart that you recognize this "truth".
"for with the HEART you believe and are justified". Romans 10:10

And right then, this person can believe it, or they can decide to think about it more.....or they can reject it., while they know its the Truth.
See that?
Some people recognize and understand that Jesus is the Savior, but have not received Him, because they want to think about it more.
Others might think..>"well, if i get saved, then i have to stop getting high, and going to bars, and fornicating, and living to make money, and trying to prove that hell does exits on forums".

See, all that THINKING can get mixed right in with the "hearing of the Truth", as the devil comes to you immediately, in your mind.... to try to take this word of God away. By distraction... of some kind. Inward or outward.
So that person becomes undecided, even tho they know that its TRUE.... That the Gospel is TRUE.
Sometimes the Devil can make you believe that what you thought was True, isn't.
But most of the time, he just brings you back into carnal thinking that closes that Door of Belief.


3) Is not even the faith to receive God's grace a gift?

Every person has been given a "measure of faith".
What is that?
Its the ability of your free will to BELIEVE something.
Free Will is the ability to Choose and the measure of faith in our free will is that aspect of it that is able to BELIEVE, in whatever.


4) Who's will is it then, if not our own, that saves us?


Salvation is Jesus on the Cross.
That's not your mind.
As It really happened.
Jesus really died for our sin and rose from the Dead.
He's alive., and coming back soon.

 

[Randy Kluth]

@Randy Kluth
Some posters will never stop until you give them the last word.
Every time you reply, they will as well.

Yes, normally I would've rejected the brother by now, since Paul warned us to remain aloof from that kind of divisive brother. But the issue had not fully developed as a theme. I've had to wait until all the issues are really out there before turning away.

Normally, when it gets to name-calling and back and forth negative retorts I just say, "not interested" and move elsewhere. But here, the issues are deeper than on the surface, and I'm giving credit for that, if not trying to do that for other readers.

This is not just about Salvation by Grace alone, which I believe, but more--about the necessity of making Free Choices. We are not automatons. We are children of the Father, freely choosing to want to be like our Father, when it is revealed to us as such. I think that is important for a number of reasons.

In my experience, which is Pentecostal, many of my brothers and sisters claim that God speaks to them every day to do certain things and to say certain things, to make life choices strictly by divine revelation. They think it is this "verbal revelation from God" that makes them righteous--otherwise, they are "in the flesh," or "missing God."

Although there is some truth in it, I find it to be dangerous not to recognize that God sort of holds back at times to see what we will do--will we rely upon His wisdom to make choices or will we strike out on our own, choosing to do what we *want* to do, and then claim God determined it by revelation? It's a subject all in itself.

When I get up in the morning, God doesn't speak to me and tell me to tie my shoes! He doesn't always tell us who to marry either, although we can trust Him to guide us when we pray. Much that we do is done without explicit mandate from God, except for the general mandate to walk in holiness and to walk in His love. I think this is important lest we justify everything we do as "revealed!"

We must be careful not to claim that everything we opt to do is "from God"--we make mistakes all the time, and our motives sometimes are beyond our own recognition. I think it is said somewhere, "Who can know the heart of man?"

Jer 17.9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?
10 “I the Lord search the heart
and examine the mind,
to reward each person according to their conduct,
according to what their deeds deserve.”

 

[St. SteVen]

This is not just about Salvation by Grace alone, which I believe, but more--about the necessity of making Free Choices. We are not automatons. We are children of the Father, freely choosing to want to be like our Father, when it is revealed to us as such. I think that is important for a number of reasons.

Great post, thanks.
These two paragraphs stood out to me.
J. Preston Eby, the author in the OP, is making a point about salvation, and even initiating a relationship with God.

I agree with you, life is full of choices to make. In that. we have no choice. - LOL

Although there is some truth in it, I find it to be dangerous not to recognize that God sort of holds back at times to see what we will do--will we rely upon His wisdom to make choices or will we strike out on our own, choosing to do what we *want* to do, and then claim God determined it by revelation? It's a subject all in itself.

Yes, we need to learn to walk this life of faith on our own two feet.
To put into practice what we are learning,

I remember the moment I experienced what you are referring to.
I felt like I had been abandoned, even though I knew it wasn't true.
God expects his children to grow up. I didn't see that coming.

 

[Zachariah]

How are those choices presented to us? (in your view)

Ultimately it is presented to us in Truth which we achieve through experience and knowlage. The left brain is interlect while the right brain holds creativity. It is crucial we have these in balance and can use them in conjunction with each other. When we do, we harness the modality of corralative thinking which is key if we want to grasp the unseen nature of Truth. The ancient Jews understood this and it is why the bible is written to repeat the same underlying messege in many different forms.

When we read about the blind being able to see, this is darkness to light. When we read about resserection, this is life to death. Baptism is water to wind. Jonah is darkness and water in the fishes belly then he is raised to wind and light. Moses leads his people through the water and to a high mountain. Noahs ark goes from the water to rest on a mountain top. Water to wine, it all means the same thing.

Most people are trapped in there left brain and struggle to use another right brain modality, pattern recognition.

If anyone wants to know "how" to read the bible then this is how: Correlative thinking and pattern recognition. This is how we harvest Truth. When two things become one thing. When two people settle their differences in pride, they become united as one in glory and God.

So back to the subject. Morality, God, Truth, Natural Law all mean the same thing. Humility is another word for sacrifice, since humility is the sacrifice of ego.

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]." - Gospel of Thomas

Then will you see Truth as the living Father.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Great post, thanks.
These two paragraphs stood out to me.
J. Preston Eby, the author in the OP, is making a point about salvation, and even initiating a relationship with God.

I agree with you, life is full of choices to make. In that. we have no choice. - LOL

Yes, we need to learn to walk this life of faith on our own two feet.
To put into practice what we are learning,

I remember the moment I experienced what you are referring to.
I felt like I had been abandoned, even though I knew it wasn't true.
God expects his children to grow up. I didn't see that coming.

You said that so well!! It's like a young girl just learning to ice skate. She has her Dad's hand, and won't let go because she has no experience on the ice. She's sure to fall. She won't be able to skate on her own until she builds up some muscle memory and coordination for operating on such a slippery surface.

But the day comes when she can let go of her Dad's hand, and she becomes a beautiful skater. She would never have become a beautiful skater unless she had learned to let go of her Dad's hand.

God is always there, coaching us, sometimes taking our hand, and at other times, letting go of our hand. But He has assured us--He will always be there watching, and proud with every good move we make. :)

 

[Patrick1966]

1) Can we choose to come to God unless he first calls us?
2) Is coming to God an act of our own "free will" choice?
3) Is not even the faith to receive God's grace a gift?
4) Who's will is it then, if not our own, that saves us?

1 No

2 I think "coming" to God is a natural response of everyone once God has called them so, yes, those who God has called willingly go to him sort of like when a fish is placed in water it automatically begins swimming.

3 Yes

4 God's

 

[St. SteVen]

1 No

2 I think "coming" to God is a natural response of everyone once God has called them so, yes, those who God has called willingly go to him sort of like when a fish is placed in water it automatically begins swimming.

3 Yes

4 God's

You're hired.

 

[Patrick1966]

Normally, when it gets to name-calling and back and forth negative retorts I just say, "not interested" and move elsewhere. But here, the issues are deeper than on the surface, and I'm giving credit for that, if not trying to do that for other readers.

There are some insightful, quality people like @St. SteVen I have unfortunately decided to put a lot of members on "ignore" because they don't teach me anything nor are they willing to be taught. I'm here to share and learn. If they're not, on "ignore" they go.

 

[Patrick1966]

@Randy Kluth
Some posters will never stop until you give them the last word.
Every time you reply, they will as well.

No I won't.

 

[Patrick1966]

Not interested! I'm not "unfriendly" when I call you out for your "unfriendliness." I'm not "unloving" when I call you out for misrepresenting me, when you try to capture what my intent is, while ignoring what I say I meant. Truth bites, but it also heals.

FWIW, he's on my "ignore" list. Shake the dust, save your pearls, and move on. He's unreachable.

 

[Patrick1966]

You project your own ways onto me, calling me a Legalist! ;)

Behold is another. Move on brother.

 

[Patrick1966]

People will argue endlessly over this...

No way, man! This community is a pillar of unity!