Man is NOT a free moral agent - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby

[St. SteVen]

Excerpted from:
Is Man A Free Moral Agent?
by J. Preston Eby


Observe! Saving faith is the GIFT OF GOD, NOT AN EXERCISE OF MAN'S "FREE WILL"!
Man must believe, certainly, but it is not the old deceitful and desperately wicked heart,
nor the old carnal mind which believes, but the faith graciously imparted by God as a gift
is the agency of man's believing. God has decreed that the works of the flesh shall have
no part in the "so great salvation" which He Himself provides. It is His work through
the Gift of Life. He regenerated us when we were dead in sins. Life is His Gift.
Faith is His Gift. We are saved by a faith which "is not of ourselves."
We believed by the faith which GOD GIVES, not by our own FREE WILL!
Until a man has been quickened by the Holy Spirit the word is:
"Why do you not understand My speech? Even because you cannot hear My word!
You are of your father the devil" (Jn. 8:43-44). But once God quickens us by
the Gift of Life and the Gift of Faith the word is:" It is GOD who works in you
both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

Source link: Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man

Questions:
1) Can we choose to come to God unless he first calls us?
2) Is coming to God an act of our own "free will" choice?
3) Is not even the faith to receive God's grace a gift?
4) Who's will is it then, if not our own, that saves us?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I've been interested in this for some time, because of my background and my studies. I believe Luther's sense of the "bondage of the will" may be a little flawed because it seems to convey what Eby is saying, that Man cannot apart from *regeneration* cannot choose to do good.

The wording, however, is critical, and I simply may be misunderstanding. I don't define "the flesh" as "human nature," whether it is fallen or not. "The Flesh," for me refers to the choice to follow fallen human nature, but is not human nature itself.

For example, a fallen person, even though he is not regenerated, may still choose to do good. And that's because his human nature, even though fallen, was initially created in the image of God to be able to do good. Having sin in him a man can still choose to do good.

But to say that "the flesh can do nothing good" is a truism, because by definition the "flesh" is the choice not to do good, to follow after what the lustful eyes see and what the lustful bodily appetites want. Of course this kind of "flesh" can never do good!

But again, fallen human nature can still choose to do good. The whole idea is for man, though fallen, to choose not just to do good but to choose regeneration, as well. In choosing for a whole new nature the man chooses to *be good,* and to have Christ living in him so that it becomes his nature to choose for the good.

Once somebody is regenerated he may do good *by his nature,* and not as if from an autonomous human being who selects doing good on a given day and time. It is *not good* to sometimes choose for the good and sometimes choose for the bad.

To thus choose to be independent of God and independent of choice is itself not choosing for the good. As such, such a carnal choice is is a choice against regeneration, to remain of independent choice.

One obtains the virtues of God by obeying His Word, whether as an unregenerate person or as a regenerate person. It is the word that provides the virtue.

But the Man himself obtains virtue together with God when he imbibes or ingests Christ and therefore does good out of his own nature. He has essentially transferred natures in becoming "regenerated." This is what constitutes "Salvation."

So an unsaved, unregenerated person can do good and obtain limited virtue in obeying God. But he can only be saved by receiving and living for Christ. Once a person has received Christ his virtue assumes the form of "good fruit" and "victory over sin." The unregenerate person, in all of his virtue, cannot produce these.

Good fruit show what kind of tree it is coming from--it shows the nature of the tree to produce a certain kind of fruit. An unregenerate person can produce virtue, but not fruit that show God's nature to do good. It can only produce a mixed form of good and evil, which does not lead to life.

My own thoughts....

 

[Enoch111]

Saving faith is the GIFT OF GOD, NOT AN EXERCISE OF MAN'S "FREE WILL"!

In which case absolutely everyone would receive this gift. After all God desires the salvation of all mankind. But since the majority will not believe, it should be obvious that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel).

 

[St. SteVen]

For example, a fallen person, even though he is not regenerated, may still choose to do good. And that's because his human nature, even though fallen, was initially created in the image of God to be able to do good. Having sin in him a man can still choose to do good.

Thanks for weighing in on this topic.
You raise some interesting points.
What part does human conscience play in your view?

 

[St. SteVen]

In which case absolutely everyone would receive this gift. After all God desires the salvation of all mankind.

Yes, that is the point.

But since the majority will not believe, it should be obvious that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel).

That's a good point to consider.
If indeed faith comes by hearing, why is it that not everyone that hears believes? (has the faith to receive)
What went wrong?

 

[Episkopos]

Excerpted from:
Is Man A Free Moral Agent?
by J. Preston Eby


Observe! Saving faith is the GIFT OF GOD, NOT AN EXERCISE OF MAN'S "FREE WILL"!
Man must believe, certainly, but it is not the old deceitful and desperately wicked heart,
nor the old carnal mind which believes, but the faith graciously imparted by God as a gift
is the agency of man's believing. God has decreed that the works of the flesh shall have
no part in the "so great salvation" which He Himself provides. It is His work through
the Gift of Life. He regenerated us when we were dead in sins. Life is His Gift.
Faith is His Gift. We are saved by a faith which "is not of ourselves."
We believed by the faith which GOD GIVES, not by our own FREE WILL!
Until a man has been quickened by the Holy Spirit the word is:
"Why do you not understand My speech? Even because you cannot hear My word!
You are of your father the devil" (Jn. 8:43-44). But once God quickens us by
the Gift of Life and the Gift of Faith the word is:" It is GOD who works in you
both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

Source link: Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man

Questions:
1) Can we choose to come to God unless he first calls us?
2) Is coming to God an act of our own "free will" choice?
3) Is not even the faith to receive God's grace a gift?
4) Who's will is it then, if not our own, that saves us?

People seem to always gravitate towards one aspect of salvation to the detriment of the other. It's a human thing. Trying to make a formula about something that is alive.

But we can break it down into 2 spheres...righteousness and holiness.

1) Can we choose to come to God unless he first calls us?

Yes...on a righteousness scale it is our responsibility to do what is possible. God does the impossible.
On the holiness scale God must to the drawing and equipping. So then it is impossible to choose to be holy. Can we set fire to a bush and call it holy because we read that Moses had an encounter with God that way?

We call out to God (righteousness) and He calls out to us (holiness)

2) Is coming to God an act of our own "free will" choice?

On the righteousness scale...yes. Why would we be called to repent unless we had the ability to turn things around by our own resolve. Look at the Ninevites.
On the holiness scale...no. No one comes to Christ unless the Father draws him/her

3) Is not even the faith to receive God's grace a gift?

It is both on two levels...human faith..trusting in God. And divine faith that works miraculous wonders based on the higher walk and connection to God in HIS holiness.

4) Who's will is it then, if not our own, that saves us?

Both God's AND ours. People divide over what is really a relationship. A covenant is an agreement of two parties. If we begin in holiness..we must still be instructed in righteousness to KEEP what we have received from God. God does not tolerate unrighteousness.

People will argue endlessly over this...each convinced that there is a strong biblical basis for their argument, while ignoring (willfully sinning) the strong biblical basis for the other.

Eccl. 7:18 It is good that you grasp one thing and also not let go of the other; for the one who fears God comes forth with both of them.

 

[St. SteVen]

People seem to always gravitate towards one aspect of salvation to the detriment of the other. It's a human thing. Trying to make a formula about something that is alive.

But we can break it down into 2 spheres...righteousness and holiness.

Thanks for your post.
That's a very interesting way to look at it. "...righteousness and holiness."

 

[Episkopos]

Thanks for your post.
That's a very interesting way to look at it. "...righteousness and holiness."

God's ways are interesting. What is also interesting is how people don't receive instruction in His ways. It's like we are playing two different games based on a different set of rules. We have been trying to fit God into our way of thinking for millennia. The solution is as easy as it is not obvious....at first.

Peace and blessings

 

[Zachariah]

Excerpted from:
Is Man A Free Moral Agent?
by J. Preston Eby


Observe! Saving faith is the GIFT OF GOD, NOT AN EXERCISE OF MAN'S "FREE WILL"!
Man must believe, certainly, but it is not the old deceitful and desperately wicked heart,
nor the old carnal mind which believes, but the faith graciously imparted by God as a gift
is the agency of man's believing. God has decreed that the works of the flesh shall have
no part in the "so great salvation" which He Himself provides. It is His work through
the Gift of Life. He regenerated us when we were dead in sins. Life is His Gift.
Faith is His Gift. We are saved by a faith which "is not of ourselves."
We believed by the faith which GOD GIVES, not by our own FREE WILL!
Until a man has been quickened by the Holy Spirit the word is:
"Why do you not understand My speech? Even because you cannot hear My word!
You are of your father the devil" (Jn. 8:43-44). But once God quickens us by
the Gift of Life and the Gift of Faith the word is:" It is GOD who works in you
both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

Source link: Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man

Questions:
1) Can we choose to come to God unless he first calls us?
2) Is coming to God an act of our own "free will" choice?
3) Is not even the faith to receive God's grace a gift?
4) Who's will is it then, if not our own, that saves us?

Faith is a part of the law that man may align himself with. When we experience faith it is both.

 

[St. SteVen]

Faith is a part of the law that man my align himself with. When we experience faith it is both.

Depending on definitions, I suppose it is a multifaceted thing.
Are we talking about "faith", "a faith", or "the faith"?
How is faith part of the law?

 

[Zachariah]

Depending on definitions, I suppose it is a multifaceted thing.
Are we talking about "faith", "a faith", or "the faith"?
How is faith part of the law?

Faith only means one thing although people use this to describe other things like "this is my faith". If you mean "this is my belief" I would say that this is the wrong usage for the word and I would encourage people not to use it in replacement of belief because this is how things become miss understood and get taken out of context. Faith is right next to the feeling of hope. We can have an "amount" of faith just like we can have higher levels of hope. Saying "I have strong faith" is correct, saying "what is your faith?" Is incorrect since faith only means one thing.

All feelings within our psyche are a reflection of the law. Glory is God and God is Truth. Pride is man and man is knowlage. Shame is death and death is darkness.

There are two imbalanced world views and two aspects to our reality:

One is that objective truth does not exist and we get to make up what's right and wrong, man is God and a higher power does not exist. The aspect in relation to this world view is free will.

The other imbalanced world view is the complete opposite where people think that everything is pre defined and completely determined by God. There is no such thing as free will. The aspect in relation to this world view is objective Truth/natural law.

Both of these world views are wrong. It is free will in conjunction with natural law. Both run simultaneously. The law serves the consequences of our free will. There are two choices really, choose to ignore and apose natural law and live in ignorance and chaos or align your free will with it and have freedom and a high quality of life.

 

[St. SteVen]

If you mean "this is my belief" I would say that this is the wrong usage for the word and I would encourage people not to use it in replacement of belief because this is how things become miss understood and get taken out of context.

I agree.

 

[St. SteVen]

There are two choices really, choose to ignore and apose natural law and live in ignorance and chaos or align your free will with it and have freedom and a high quality of life.

How are those choices presented to us? (in your view)

 

[FaithWillDo]

Excerpted from:
Is Man A Free Moral Agent?
by J. Preston Eby


Observe! Saving faith is the GIFT OF GOD, NOT AN EXERCISE OF MAN'S "FREE WILL"!
Man must believe, certainly, but it is not the old deceitful and desperately wicked heart,
nor the old carnal mind which believes, but the faith graciously imparted by God as a gift
is the agency of man's believing. God has decreed that the works of the flesh shall have
no part in the "so great salvation" which He Himself provides. It is His work through
the Gift of Life. He regenerated us when we were dead in sins. Life is His Gift.
Faith is His Gift. We are saved by a faith which "is not of ourselves."
We believed by the faith which GOD GIVES, not by our own FREE WILL!
Until a man has been quickened by the Holy Spirit the word is:
"Why do you not understand My speech? Even because you cannot hear My word!
You are of your father the devil" (Jn. 8:43-44). But once God quickens us by
the Gift of Life and the Gift of Faith the word is:" It is GOD who works in you
both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

Source link: Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man

Questions:
1) Can we choose to come to God unless he first calls us?
2) Is coming to God an act of our own "free will" choice?
3) Is not even the faith to receive God's grace a gift?
4) Who's will is it then, if not our own, that saves us?

Dear St. SteVen,

You asked:
Questions:
1) Can we choose to come to God unless he first calls us?

No. Mankind was created spiritually "marred" and subject to vanity (sin):

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

The flaw in mankind's spirit is its "weakness" and because of such, mankind quickly becomes carnally minded after birth. In that carnal & sinful spiritual condition, no man can understand God or even have a desire to seek Him.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

2) Is coming to God an act of our own "free will" choice?

No. Mankind must wait on the Lord to act within them. When He does, He will come to a person and give them the Early Rain. With that "earnest" of the Spirit (Holy Spirit of Promise, Eph 1:13-14), the person will have a measure of faith and will then make a confession of faith.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

It is at that point the person is "called out" and will enter the church.

3) Is not even the faith to receive God's grace a gift?

Christ will come to a person because of His grace and will give them the Early Rain. That gift is given to them without their permission and without their asking Christ for the gift.

Christ is solely responsible for mankind's salvation and because of such, He decides when He will come to each person.

Paul's conversion experience is the pattern (type) the Elect will follow to be saved:

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause, I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul did not ask Christ to come to him nor did Paul give Christ permission to give him the Early and Latter Rains.

4) Who's will is it then, if not our own, that saves us?

All mankind will be saved because it is God's "will" to save us. He has a plan to accomplish this great work. In this age, Christ will only save those who have been chosen from the foundation of the world. They are the Elect, the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind. The balance of mankind will be saved at the end of the next and final age. At that time, Christ and His Elect will make this call:

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

After the last person of mankind is saved, this verse will be testified to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

And then the six goals of Daniel's Seventy weeks prophecy will be fulfilled:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, 1). to finish the transgression, and 2). to make an end of sins, and 3). to make reconciliation for iniquity, and 4). to bring in everlasting righteousness, and 5). to seal up the vision and prophecy, and 6). to anoint the most Holy.

Joe

 

[Behold]

Observe! Saving faith is the GIFT OF GOD,

Faith does not save you, unless Faith died on the Cross for you sin.
Some heretics seem to think it did.

But for the rest who are not one of those....

1.) God saves you THROUGH your faith.

2.) Jesus is the Savior.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Thanks for weighing in on this topic.
You raise some interesting points.
What part does human conscience play in your view?

You're welcome. I believe we easily get trapped in the need to say that our Works do not justify us for Salvation. That's usually the big counter to Christianity, that a "good person" doesn't really need Christ and his Salvation. But the issue you bring also involves the question of Man's ability to do good, whether or not it merits Salvation. In my view, God made Man to be able to do good, and that didn't change with the Fall.

There is no question in my mind that no matter how much good we do we still require Christ's work of atonement in order for us to "get to heaven." And that's because the acceptance of Christ's atonement means that we acknowledge our need to "change natures," from doing things independent of him to doing things in conjunction with him. When we abide in the vine we are able to not just do good, but also produce good fruit, indicating we are a "good tree." Our nature is changed to reflect the nature of God, which *does not sin.*

I'm not saying we're perfect when we accept Christ--only that we come to reflect that the perfect Christ has been permanently lodged in our heart. We show that the good we do has qualities of divinity and permanence--qualities such as kindness, patience, and gentleness. They aren't just good works of convenience that may change with a shifting of the tide. They reflect a true divine love from the heart, a love that is unconditional and remains the same for friends or enemies.

When we accept Christ we not only accept what he did for us, but we also *receive him in our heart* so that whatever we do we do in conjunction with him, by his counsel and guidance. And so when we respond to God's word we show Christ, and not just try to imitate some of his good works.

The human conscience convicts us of anything we recognize is God's verbalized word to our heart. When God speaks, our conscience recognizes the need to respond. We can obey, or we can sear our conscience by pretending God didn't speak, or choose to rationalize that "God is a good Guy--He'll let things go."

Being flawed we are sometimes confused by what we think God may or may not be saying, about what is right in a given situation. God's voice can be loud or soft, depending on what God wants to say. But the conscience is the operation of our spirit in responding to God's voice. All men can obey that voice, except that many men do not respond to the general call of Christ to become "born again"--an offer that was made to all men. All men will, however, respond in some measure to God's call to "do good," because we are made for that.

 

[Behold]

we acknowledge our need to "change natures,"

That's not the True Gospel, you posted.. , Randy Kluth

I wonder when you first made it up, as you love to keep reposting it.

And like i told you the last 3 Times you posted that nonsense..

A person who comes to the Cross today, does not know about "bearing Fruit" and "Justification". and "changing natures", or any of your Christianese, phrases, Randy.

That Christian-Speak, happens later........but it does not happen to the sinner who is coming into faith, in Jesus.

God does not require you to sign a commitment of any kind., Before He will save you..only based on THE CROSS OF CHRIST.
Understand yet?
So, that you teach that the sinner wanting to be saved has to commit to a life change.....before God will save them by FAITH......is a FALSE Gospel.
You made it up.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That's not the True Gospel, you posted.. , Randy Kluth

I wonder when you first made it up, as you love to keep reposting it.

And like i told you the last 3 Times you posted that nonsense..

A person who comes to the Cross today, does not know about "bearing Fruit" and "Justification". and "changing natures", or any of your Christianese, phrases, Randy.

That Christian-Speak, happens later........but it does not happen to the sinner who is coming into faith, in Jesus.

God does not require you to sign a commitment of any kind., Before He will save you..only based on THE CROSS OF CHRIST.
Understand yet?
So, that you teach that the sinner wanting to be saved has to commit to a life change.....before God will save them by FAITH......is a FALSE Gospel.
You made it up.

You're wrong on all points.
1) Yes, God requires a commitment of the new convert--a commitment to follow Christ, a choice to receive Christ on the inside.
2) Yes, a new convert must know that in accepting Christ he is embracing a new nature from Christ. That is what being "Born Again" means not just to old Christians but also to new converts.
3) You're insulting form of disagreement is just as bad as it has always been. You should reflect a "New Nature" yourself! If you want to disagree firmly, fine. The rest is unnecessary.

1 John 3.1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God!

2 Peter 1.4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Col 3.9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

Behold, you really have got to revisit your gospel of unmitigated grace. We know that we can add nothing to the grace of God. But we can certainly choose to live by it and to abide in it. That is the true Gospel, as you can plainly see in the Scriptures.

 

[Behold]

1) Yes, God requires a commitment of the new convert--a commitment to follow Christ, a choice to receive Christ on the inside.

There is no verse in the NT, where the CROSS is found, that even suggests that God will not take a sinner, unless they COMMIT to follow Christ, first.
What Cult has trained you to teach that one, Randy?

One day you should share with the members here, how many "different denominations' you have "now found to be the right one". "the next one".

So, your lie about the Cross of Christ, is going to find you out again.

Listen up.. AGAIN....

"Christ came into the world to SAVE SINNERS" by dying for their SIN"

He did not come to create a contract that states that you must agree to try to "follow Christ" before you can be saved".

The NT teaches, (Paul) that we are saved while we are "ungodly" and "yet a sinner', not after we are cleaned up and will commit to follow Christ.

Salvation is a GIFT.
You do not have to commit to working and self effort, for God's Gift of Salvation, Randy.
So, once again, your Galatians 1:8 issue has found you out.
And it will again.
Believe it.

 

[St. SteVen]

Thanks for your response.
I especially liked this bit,

All mankind will be saved because it is God's "will" to save us. He has a plan to accomplish this great work. In this age, Christ will only save those who have been chosen from the foundation of the world. They are the Elect, the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind. The balance of mankind will be saved at the end of the next and final age. At that time, Christ and His Elect will make this call:

AMEN