Manifestations

[veteran]

Paul is not talking about some "unknown tongue" that no one but God can understand, for that's NOT EVEN how the cloven tongue of Pentecost manifested. According to God's Word in Acts 2, when the cloven tongue manifested, EVERYONE present understood it. Not only did they understand what was spoken, they all heard it in their very DIALECT of birth. God knows HOW we speak and hear. And what they heard spoken by the cloven tongue were the wonderful works of God.

Still, I give space for the possibility that what some today speak as an "unknown tongue" may one day manifest as the true cloven tongue of Pentecost. If someone is called to go preach The Gospel to a people of a different language they don't know, and they pray and speak and then those people understand, then they will understand in their very dialect of their birth, even to include the accents of their dialect slang. That's how ACCURATE the true cloven tongue is.

Per the 1 Cor.12-14 Scripture, the word for "tongue" there is Greek glossa, which means known languages of the world.

1 Cor 14:2-11
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

How is it Paul talks about a tongue that is NOT spoken unto men? Was not the cloven tongue on Pentecost spoken to men, and understood by all present? Yes. Paul is simply showing how one speaking a foreign language prevents others from understanding it. Only the speaker and God would understand, even with speaking of mysteries by The Holy Spirit.


3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

One who speaks in a language none present understands edifies himself only, and not those present.


5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

The idea of uttering words easy to understand is about speaking languages.


10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
(KJV)

The idea of voices in the world contrasted to a barbarian speaking is about foreign language, known languages of the world.

Paul is speaking about someone coming into the Church speaking a foreign language that none present can understand.

 

[Rex]

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us[b] with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

 

[veteran]

What is the cloven tongue spoken on Pentecost about people?

It's about the one language that ALL nations spoke prior to the tower of Babel event.

Most likely, it is an ancient form of Hebrew, a type even before the Canaanite-Hebrew.

Per Zephaniah 3, God is going to return us all to the one language which all peoples spoke before, the confusion of languages that God caused at the tower of Babel event being reversed.

This is WHY on Pentecost what the Apostles spoke was 'understood' by ALL that heard it there, even according to the very dialects of their language of birth. For us in the U.S., that means like 'yaul' if you're from the South, and 'yous guys' if you're from the North.

 

[Rex]

What is the cloven tongue spoken on Pentecost about people?

It's about the one language that ALL nations spoke prior to the tower of Babel event.

Most likely, it is an ancient form of Hebrew, a type even before the Canaanite-Hebrew.

Per Zephaniah 3, God is going to return us all to the one language which all peoples spoke before, the confusion of languages that God caused at the tower of Babel event being reversed.

This is WHY on Pentecost what the Apostles spoke was 'understood' by ALL that heard it there, even according to the very dialects of their language of birth. For us in the U.S., that means like 'yaul' if you're from the South, and 'yous guys' if you're from the North.

That's some nice gymnastics veteran, but If you continue to read it becomes clear Paul is not speaking of a lost language, or the original language of men, or even the a language of men at all. But rather pray in the Spirit, which Paul also speaks about this tongue as building up yourself and being directed towards God not men
2 verse

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

Now at Pentecost the unlearned did understand, having not received the spirit they understood in their own tongue, Peter says the same was true in Acts 10 as the spirit fell on the gentiles. The distinction of this tongue is not made anywhere else, and Paul is clearly pointing out that praying in the spirit is not the same as Pentecost. Or that it is even a language of men as you imply in your post, the language of the first men of creation, confused at the tower of babel. Not one time does he make reference to Pentecost, but he does say that tongues are a sign for unbelievers not believers, in that context how is it that Pentecostal churches "believers" teach it as a sign unto themselves? The sign to unbelievers is the type of tongue in Acts 2 and 10. NOT the praying in the spirit.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:

 

[veteran]

Thats some nice gymnastics veteran, but If you continue to read it becomes clear Paul is not speaking of a lost language, or the original language of men, or even the a language of men at all. But rather pray in the Spirit, which Paul also spoke of about this tongue as building up yourself and being directed towards God not men
2 verse

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

Now at Pentecost the unlearned did understand, having not received the spirit they understood in their own tongue, Peter says the same was true in Acts 10 as the spirit fell on the gentiles. The distinction of this tongue is not made anywhere else, and Paul is clearly pointing out that praying in the spirit is not the same as Pentecost. Or that it is even a language of men as you imply in your post, the language of the first men of creation, confused at the tower of babel. Not one time does make reference to Pentecost, but he does say that tongues are a sign for unbelievers no believers, in that context how is it that Pentecostal churches "believers" teach it as a sign unto themselves? The sign to unbelievers is the type of tongue in Acts 2 and 10. NOT the praying in the spirit.

You simply don't appear to understand that when we pray among 'ourselves' without uttering spoken words, we are... praying in The Spirit.

Moreover, Apostle Paul defined... what tongues he was talking about early on in that discourse within the 1 Cor.12 Scripture...

1 Cor 12:10-11
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
(KJV)

The word "divers" the translators added, but the Greek word for "kinds" (genos) is pointing to a family of languages (glossa). That's the idea of that specific dividing of The Spirit is about that he was talking about. And that is not Scripture gymnastics, it's simply keeping to the subject Paul was talking about throughout those 1 Cor.12-14 chapters.

 

[Rex]

You simply don't appear to understand that when we pray among 'ourselves' without uttering spoken words, we are... praying in The Spirit.

Moreover, Apostle Paul defined... what tongues he was talking about early on in that discourse within the 1 Cor.12 Scripture...

1 Cor 12:10-11
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
(KJV)

The word "divers" the translators added, but the Greek word for "kinds" (genos) is pointing to a family of languages (glossa). That's the idea of that specific dividing of The Spirit is about that he was talking about. And that is not Scripture gymnastics, it's simply keeping to the subject Paul was talking about throughout those 1 Cor.12-14 chapters.

Different KINDS of tongues, what more needs to be said, Its your narrow sightedness that sees one tongue.
And ignore that it is not taught as a sign to believers or evidence of having received the HS as many teach and profess.

That IMO--> with no biblical evidence to support such a teaching is clearly starting people off in their walk on a foundation of sand.
The nut jobs on TV are proof of the fruit of such teachings, as well as many youtube videos of this teaching and practice being manifest.
In Hebrews 6 such talk is for the immature and teaching it as a foundational doctrinal principle is as well, immature.

You can have the last word
I know from reading your prophesy threads your not satisfied with speaking your opinion.
I've said my peace on the subject and I understand you and others will never be swayed from your opinion as well.

See my signature

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear all,

I have experienced holy laughter and dancing in the spirit. I was not trying to do it but when I trusted God and yielded to what His Spirit in me was wanting to do that is what happened. It was a very positive and liberating experience. I highly recommend them.

 

[veteran]

Different KINDS of tongues, what more needs to be said, Its your narrow sightedness that sees one tongue.
And ignore that it is not taught as a sign to believers or evidence of having received the HS as many teach and profess.

That IMO--> with no biblical evidence to support such a teaching is clearly starting people off in their walk on a foundation of sand.
The nut jobs on TV are proof of the fruit of such teachings, as well as many youtube videos of this teaching and practice being manifest.
In Hebrews 6 such talk is for the immature and teaching it as a foundational doctrinal principle is as well, immature.


You can have the last word
I know from reading your prophesy threads your not satisfied with speaking your opinion.
I've said my peace on the subject and I understand you and others will never be swayed from your opinion as well.

See my signature

Different 'kinds' of tongues means KNOWN LANGUAGES OF THE WORLD. That... is the specific gift by The Holy Spirit which Paul was speaking about, not some 'unknown tongue' that no one present can understand.

And throughout western Christian history, the gift of many lanaguages has been a trait of many of God's people, some even with the ability to speak a lot more than just two languages. I even have a friend who's son he worried about, because while young he didn't seem to be interested in anything. But when his son joined the military and was tested, they discovered he had a natural gift for languages. He became an interpreter in Russian, Chinese, and Korean dialects. That's the gift of diverse kinds of tongues Paul was speaking about in 1 Cor.12:10-11.

I cannot help that is not the 'tongue' idea you claim Paul was speaking about. The only admonishing I can give you is that the unknown tongue you're talking about may... manifest into all known languages of the world in a certain event in our near future when many brethren are to be delivered up to councils and synagogues to give a Testimony for Christ Jesus at the end of this world. There is OT and NT prophecy about that future event, as Peter pointed out in Acts 2 that the cloven tongue of Pentecost was a example of what Joel was talking about for the very end of this world.

 

[7angels]

veteran

you are wrong in your interpretation of the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit. i say this not to start a debate but to let others know who read this that your explanation is flawed. i have gone over this with you before so i know there is no use to do it again.

God bless

 

[williemac]

Dear all,

I have experienced holy laughter and dancing in the spirit. I was not trying to do it but when I trusted God and yielded to what His Spirit in me was wanting to do that is what happened. It was a very positive and liberating experience. I highly recommend them.

HOWEVER....... these are not examples of manifestations of the Spirit, as per the original question. They are responses to His presence at best. How is it that can one recommend specific responses to God? One can only lead a person to Him and then let the response be as natural and spontaneous as it can be, regardless of what it may be. Otherwise a person is merely laughing on purpose or dancing on purpose. These do not require the supernatural. There are plenty of non believers that can go into a fit of uncontrollable laughter, sometimes called the giggles. That is a natural human occurance.

The question is not whether anyone has experienced certain things such as the examples given, but whether or not these are manifestations of the Spirit..a term that actually means that the Holy Spirit manifests His power or ability through an individual. Keep in mind these manifestations that Paul referred to were for the benefit of others. They were for ministering blessings to one another. They were not for the purpose of experiencing a rush, a high, or other forms of catharsis. Those things are in a category of their own and do not belong in the list of manifestations of the Spirit.

And by the way, Justin, you may want to consider that your experiences were not as much directed by the Holy Spirit as they were inspired by your own spirit as it connects with God. Our new man is a new spirit, and is that which connects us with the spirit realm. An example is; when a person prays in tongues, as Paul taught, his spirit prays (1Cor.14:14). The Holy Spirit gives the utterance, or in other words, the actual language. But the spirit of the individual is that which is doing the praying.

Likewise, dancing in the spirit is your own spirit offering praise and worship to God, if it is indeed a real spiritual act. It is not my purpose to invalidate such a form of worship, but to merely call it what it is. It is not a manifestation of the Spirit (capital S, Spirit), in the way it was taught by Paul.

 

[veteran]

veteran

you are wrong in your interpretation of the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit. i say this not to start a debate but to let others know who read this that your explanation is flawed. i have gone over this with you before so i know there is no use to do it again.

God bless

You're entitled to your opinion, as long as you know that's all you're actually expressing.

Some might want to go over the Kunalini thread somewhere on the Forum, and note the things of confusion that some of these are trying claim is from The Holy Spirit! God is NOT the author of confusion, like Apostle Paul said. And the Kundalini manifestations among PAGANS as show in those videos we KNOW is not from The Holy Spirit.

Some brethren today simply are being tricked with mysterious manifestations that are not from God.

 

[7angels]

i feel sorry for those out there that have never seen a manifestation of God or that cannot recognize when the Holy Spirit manifests itself. this kundalini manifestations is satan's way of copying the manifestations of God. it is sad that people avoid the manifestations of God because they are afraid of getting involved with something that is not God.

God bless

 

[veteran]

i feel sorry for those out there that have never seen a manifestation of God or that cannot recognize when the Holy Spirit manifests itself. this kundalini manifestations is satan's way of copying the manifestations of God. it is sad that people avoid the manifestations of God because they are afraid of getting involved with something that is not God.

God bless

I know one thing, The Holy Spirit is NOT a LAUGHING MATTER.

 

[williemac]

i feel sorry for those out there that have never seen a manifestation of God or that cannot recognize when the Holy Spirit manifests itself. this kundalini manifestations is satan's way of copying the manifestations of God. it is sad that people avoid the manifestations of God because they are afraid of getting involved with something that is not God.

God bless

Excuse me, but the Holy Spirit is NOT an "IT".
Make no mistake, the bible is the final authority on this matter. In 1Cor.12, Paul relates the manifestation of the Spirit as gifts of the Spirit that are/were given for the profit of all. They are listed, and not one of them resembles those things that some are calling manifestations. There is technically nothing wrong with feeling the presence of God and responding to Him. But these kinds of cathartic releif, as described on this thread, bear no place with that which the bible calls a manifestation of the Spirit.

 

[7angels]

I know one thing, The Holy Spirit is NOT a LAUGHING MATTER.

what brought this remark about?

Excuse me, but the Holy Spirit is NOT an "IT".
Make no mistake, the bible is the final authority on this matter. In 1Cor.12, Paul relates the manifestation of the Spirit as gifts of the Spirit that are/were given for the profit of all. They are listed, and not one of them resembles those things that some are calling manifestations. There is technically nothing wrong with feeling the presence of God and responding to Him. But these kinds of cathartic releif, as described on this thread, bear no place with that which the bible calls a manifestation of the Spirit.

where did i refer to the Holy Spirit as an 'it'? how you define a cathartic relief depends upon whether or not i agree with or not.

God bless

 

[williemac]

what brought this remark about?


where did i refer to the Holy Spirit as an 'it'? how you define a cathartic relief depends upon whether or not i agree with or not.

God bless

Are you serious? Do you not proofread your own posts? I will copy and paste it from #32.. "....that cannot recognize when the Holy Spirit manifests itself. "....Your own words.
As well, I have shared already some thoughts on this subject in post #18, if you care to read it. I have had many experiences myself in the past and have been used of God in several manifestations as well.
But I stand by what I said, that anyone can call an event or experience a manifestation but this does not necessarily mean that it complies with what the word calls a manifestation of the Spirit. I am addressing that which was on the original question, for starters.
I do feel the presence of God most of the time within me. I have worshipped Him in the Spirit, sung in the Spirit, have seen people go down under His "power", as it were, and have heard many things come out of the mouths of those who are my brothers and sisters. Some of these are valid and many invalid, as far as whether they are actually from the mind of God. I do not care to judge each one individually. I am not against a feel good event or experience. That is what I call cathartic. However, no matter what others call them, the bible does not call these things manifestations of the Holy Spirit. It is just that plain and simple. God Bless, Howie

 

[veteran]

what brought this remark about?


where did i refer to the Holy Spirit as an 'it'? how you define a cathartic relief depends upon whether or not i agree with or not.

God bless

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzVSN7ykBXA

 

[Raeneske]

Acts 2:2-13 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Tongues are known languages, it says nothing about rolling around, jumping up and down, and excitement. The work of Satan is to cause such a strange excitement, and then cause men and women to think they are sanctified through this excitement. It says nothing about sounding like a babbling brook. You are not speaking in an angelic language. You do not sound educated at all.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

No man understands someone who speaks in an unknown tongue --- he therefore is speaking mysteries. And what does that profit?

1 Corinthians 14:6-9 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

1 Corinthian 14:13-14,16 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

It doesn't profit a single thing, your understanding is completely unfruitful. You have no idea, whether you're speaking what you should, or cursing out God. If you speak in an unknown tongue, who shall you warn? Have you warned the believers to repent, and make straight their paths? Have you warned the unbelievers of impending doom? No, if you speak in an unknown tongue, you should pray that there be an interpreter. If you sound like a babbling brook, there can be no interpreter. You aren't saying a single thing. However, if you speak a real language, one known on this earth, then you pray that you get an understanding. Then someone may be able to interpret this language to you. You could start speaking French after being filled with the Holy Ghost. And except you have someone their to interpret, how shall you understand? But then, after you understand you are speaking in French, do you stay in your church, or do you head to a populous where French is spoken?

1 Corinthians 14:22-23 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Tongues is not given to you, or anyone else for the benefit of self. It is given, that you may teach to those who are unlearned, those who know not the truth. And also, final note: The entire church is not to speak in tongues like this. You will sound absolutely mad. No unbeliever will believe you, but walk away laughing at you.

----------------------------------------

As for these manifestations, please explain to me how that is orderly. How is it orderly, to run around, roll on the floor laughing, jump up and down and hoot and holler. This is not the work of God. God is not in that place, He has nothing to do with such manifestations as those. This is a work of the flesh, which Satan constantly tries to bombard the senses with. Not one soul is edified in congregations such as those, when these manifestations exist. Show me, what have you learned? Has God given you a true revelation in scriptures? Has such actions begun to shed light upon the Word of God?

And for those who are listening to the, "You have to see it" type of testimonies --- No, do not go. If anyone is wishing to "demonstrate" those manifestations for you, know that it is not the work of God. "I have not sent them.... and they have run" " Believe it not..." Shall not one walk into your church, even if you aren't claiming to speak in tongues, and think the church members are downright mad? All this "This is the Holy Spirit" stuff is all based upon excitement. If you don't have the tongues, you have the strange manifestations of people rolling around on the ground looking like they're having seizures.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The Holy Spirit speaks by comparing spiritual things with spiritual --- not by teaching flesh to have fleshly excitements.

 

[veteran]

I agree with you on that. Many are simply not aware where those manifestations like that are really from. They are drunken with the mysterious, on things that cause confusion, which are not of God.

 

[williemac]

In reply to the above #38, I want to address this quote: "Tongues is not given to you, or anyone else for the benefit of self. It is given, that you may teach to those who are unlearned, those who know not the truth."
This is a narrow commentary concerning tongues. In Paul's teaching on the subject in 1Cor.14, he touches on two distinct uses of the gift.

One of them is the public speaking of another language. In it, he cautions them to refrain from doing so if no interpretation is available. The interpretaion he speaks of is by the Holy Spirit, and is as supernatural as the actual speaking of a language unknown to the speaker. His argument is that we need to communicate to one another in ways that can be understood.

The other use is that of a personal prayer language from the spirit of the believer directly to God. This can be confirmed in vs.2 and vs.14. Paul does not restrict this in the same way that he restricts public use of tongues. The indication seems that the primary purpose for the gift is self edification, as said so in vs.4, and vs.24.

Here is a summary, taken from the whole of the context, but specifically confirmed by vs2,4,&14. Through the Holy Spirit, the gift of tongues is the ability to pray to God in a language unknown to, and not understood by, the person doing the praying. It edifies that person. Keep in mind that this edification happens regardless of any interpretation, for it is a way of direct communication between the spirit of that person and God.

Therefore, if a person speaks in tongues to another person, the point of it is useless to that other person unless he can understand it. So Paul discourages that particual use of the gift in any way other than a limited amount.

As for the rest of your reply, I agree that to the observer, there seems to be a lack of decency and order in many of these so called revival outbursts of strange manifestations. And as for the video in the previous post (#37), I have reservations concerning some of the conclusions made by the speaker, though I certainly feel the same way that many of these things are contrived by something or someone other than the Holy Spirit. But be careful that we don't demonize our brothers in Christ, no matter how misled they may appear to be.