Mark 2 - The friends that saved?

[Doug_E_Fresh]

I was recently in a Bible study where someone said that the cripple in Mark 2 was saved by the faith of his friends. What do you think? (It is not my opinion that he was saved.)

Here's the reference:

1A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. 4Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
8Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’?10But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, 11“I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 12He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”

 

[Webers_Home]

I was recently in a Bible study where someone said that the cripple in Mark 2
was saved by the faith of his friends. What do you think? (It is not my
opinion that he was saved.)

Some years ago one of the men at work invited to a home Bible study. I
asked him if his group was led by a competent Bible teacher. He said "No;
we don't have a teacher. The group teaches itself. In other words: we speak
as the Spirit leads us to speak." I summarily declined.

†. Luke 6:39 . . A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not
both fall into a pit?

True Bible study, as per Matt 28:18-20, is a classroom situation wherein
there's a leader who knows what he's talking about; and all the rest are
students. In a situation where nobody is competent, and everybody is
putting in their two-cents worth, you don't have a Bible study going on as
per Matt 28:18-20; no: what you have going on then is a bull session; which
is not the Lord's preferred way of teaching disciples from among the nations
to observe all things that he commanded His apostles.

Buen Camino
/

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

I'm not gleaning from the OP that the Bible study was leaderless. Even in Bible studies with leaders, people will express opinions and interpretations. I do agree with you that no Bible study group can be beneficial if there isn't somebody there who's a competent teacher.

 

[Doug_E_Fresh]

There was a teacher/ leader. This isn't about its leadership. it's about the topic: "Do you think that the cripple was given salvation?" That's what i'm asking for response about.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

There was a teacher/ leader. This isn't about its leadership. it's about the topic: "Do you think that the cripple was given salvation?" That's what i'm asking for response about.

It depends on who you ask. As a Catholic, I don't believe that salvation is an event, I believe it's a journey that must be completed by our choice to remain faithful to the end (Hebrews 3:14). He was saved if he persevered in holding onto what he was given. If he went back to his old ways, then he forfeited salvation. Somebody who believes once saved always saved will contend with that belief.

What I believe many Protestants take issue with is the idea that forgiveness can be granted that wasn't first solicited. The same issue arises when considering Jesus's words to the disciples, "You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you." The concept of unconditional (or blanket) absolution is an ancient one. A hypothetical situation I was taught one time was about a plane full of people and that plane was set on crash course that would kill everyone in it. A priest on that plane could in this emergency situation, pronounce absolution to every soul on that plane. The power to forgive sins, which Jesus gave to the Apostles when he commissioned them, is the power to forgive as the Lord forgave, in some instances, even without sin being confessed.

And that's why I believe that many Protestants grapple with what happened in this incident recorded in the gospels. Nobody doubts that Jesus could forgive sins, and unlike the critics, we don't need Jesus to heal somebody to prove he has that authority. But to forgive somebody who didn't request it boggles the mind of anyone convinced that this must always be a transaction of volition, that one must want to be forgiven first. That's why I believe your Bible study group was discussing this, because this story for Protestants is an unresolved controversy.

 

[Angelina]

I was recently in a Bible study where someone said that the cripple in Mark 2 was saved by the faith of his friends. What do you think? (It is not my opinion that he was saved.)

The actions of the crippled man's friends prove that they had faith that Jesus could heal him.
It is possible that they all heard him preach including the crippled man

2...and he preached the word to them.

It is possible that his friends built the crippled man's faith by telling him all the wonderful things Jesus had already done.
....and it is highly probable that Jesus healed the man because he saw the faith of his friends and also because he is a merciful God who has the authority to forgive sins ie:

Matthew 8
5 Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6 saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.”7 And Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.”
8 The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same hour.

 

[Webers_Home]

There was a teacher/ leader.

Don't you trust his/her competence? Is that why you are here looking for
a second opinion amongst armchair theologians?

Buen Camino
/

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

If the idea originated from the leader of the Bible study group, that would be cause for alarm.

 

[Angelina]

Perhaps I should clarify this a little more....scripture [Matt 8] clearly shows that Jesus healed the centurion's servant according to what he believed [by faith] and the servant was healed that very hour.

PS: This is not about salvation...it is about healing.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Perhaps I should clarify this a little more....scripture [Matt 8] clearly shows that Jesus healed the centurion's servant according to what he believed [by faith] and the servant was healed that very hour.

PS: This is not about salvation...it is about healing.

But it is about salvation, Angelina. Jesus was demonstrating a priority we should all keep in mind, that the soul needs saving much more than the body. That's why he first forgave the man's sins. Everyone that Jesus ever healed is dead, and the people he raised from the dead are also dead again. Bodily healing is impermanent and should not be our focus. There's a purpose to everything Jesus did, and the order in which he did them. And this thread is indeed about salvation, that was made very clear in the OP's first sentence.

 

[Webers_Home]

-
Well; seeing as how we're having a bull session instead of a Bible study; I
might just as well throw in my own two cents. Caveat Lector.

†. Mark 2:5 . .When Jesus saw their faith

The "faith" that Jesus saw wasn't so-called saving faith. It was merely their
110% confidence in his ability to do something about their friend's condition.
Now in my armchair opinion, the next thing that Jesus did is extremely
noteworthy.

†. Mark 2:5 . . He said unto the sick of the palsy: Son, thy sins be forgiven
thee.

Whoa! Hey! What are you doing? We didn't bring our friend to you for
absolution. Shaw! We can get that at the Temple. No; we brought him here
not for religious reasons; but for health reasons. Can't you see that our
friend can't walk. Do something for him won't you?

No; that's not in the text; I made it up. But I have no doubt in my mind
that's what the man's friends, and himself too, were thinking; and I have a
hunch they were very disappointed too. Metaphorically speaking; they had
asked for bread, and Jesus gave them a stone instead.

But according to John 6:38, John 8:29, Jesus was micromanaged by a higher
power. So then, he didn't ignore their request arbitrarily, no; he ignored it
purposely because it was God's wishes that he do so in order to provoke a
reaction from the scribes in the audience.

†. Mark 2:6-7 . . But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and
reasoning in their hearts: Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? Who
can forgive sins but God only?

Well; they were, of course, 100% correct. But what they didn't know was
that Jesus was authorized to speak for God, and to speak as God.

†. John 3:34 . . For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's
Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.

†. Heb 1:1-2 . . Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our
ancestors through the prophets. But now in these final days, he has spoken
to us through His son.

Had Jesus been a true blasphemer, he could have performed no miracles
because God is not in bed with blasphemers. I mean; everybody knows that;
especially scribes.

†. Mark 2:8 . . And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they
so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these
things in your hearts?

Well; I have to ask the same question. Jesus' reputation preceded him. It
was well-known all over that region that he was curing people left and right
in the name of God-- the Jews' God, not some strange foreign deity. Had the
scribes used their heads they would have realized that Jesus wasn't some
cheap magician; no he was for real.

†. Mark 2:9 . . Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins
be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

Well; if he could do the one, then he could certainly do the other with as
much ease; but were Jesus a blasphemer, he could neither.

†. Mark 2:10-11 . . But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power
on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy) I say unto thee:
Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. And
immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all;
insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying: We never
saw it on this fashion.

Jesus reminds me of Joseph. When Jacob's favorite son was prime minister
of Egypt, he was given Pharaoh's signet ring; which meant that Joseph had
power of attorney to sign official documents just as if it were Pharaoh
signing them himself. That's a lot of power.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Angelina]

I was recently in a Bible study where someone said that the cripple in Mark 2 was saved by the faith of his friends. What do you think? (It is not my opinion that he was saved.)

This was the question I was answering.

I gave 2 possibilities and 1 probability as per below

....and it is highly probable that Jesus healed the man because he saw the faith of his friends and also because he is a merciful God who has the authority to forgive sins ie: Matt 8

Matthew 8 for example does not state that the healed servant was saved but only that he was healed.
...again I reiterate my position

....scripture [Matt 8] clearly shows that Jesus healed the centurion's servant according to what he believed [by faith] and the servant was healed that very hour.

PS: This is not about salvation...it is about healing.

vot

But it is about salvation, Angelina. Jesus was demonstrating a priority we should all keep in mind, that the soul needs saving much more than the body. That's why he first forgave the man's sins. Everyone that Jesus ever healed is dead, and the people he raised from the dead are also dead again. Bodily healing is impermanent and should not be our focus. There's a purpose to everything Jesus did, and the order in which he did them. And this thread is indeed about salvation, that was made very clear in the OP's first sentence.

The crippled man was not saved by the faith of his friends...but rather healed. Just as the servant of the centurion was healed by the faith of the centurion. Prior to the healing of the crippled man....Jesus forgave the man of his sins [and he was saved through Jesus forgiveness]. Something that he could do because he was given the authority to do so and also because Jesus had not died on the cross yet....

 

[Webers_Home]

I was recently in a Bible study where someone said that the cripple in Mark 2
was saved by the faith of his friends.

Was that someone the Bible study's leader?


Buen Camino
/

 

[Doug_E_Fresh]

Yes the Bible Study leader said it. No, the leadership isn't the issue here. I have no issue with the leader. Angelina has given me the structure/ and nature of an answer that I was looking for.

My position is this:

Jesus saw the faith of the friends, as a result of the faith, he fixed what was most important in the man's life. His sin. The friends probably looked a little weird at Jesus, yes. But so did the entire crowd when he said "You are forgiven."

What happened next was this:

6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
8Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’?10But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, 11“I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.”

So in my opinion, the reason he was healed was for the satisfaction of the crowd, not the friends faith. Per this verse: [10But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man...]

As Angelina has already said, I also agree that forgiveness of the man's sins does not mean that he became saved. The faith of another person cannot save you. So if the man on the mat, was not forgiven as a result of his own faith, he would not be saved since his own faith was not the faith in Jesus.

Side note: I'm not looking for a specific answer, I'm looking for discussion about what you think about the passage. I'm not saying that I was looking for someone to agree with.

 

[Madad21]

To answer your question we need to ask another question

Why does Jesus have the authority to forgive sins?

John 3:16–17 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
John 6:37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

He says
"Son" - John 1:12 "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--"
"Your sins are forgiven" - [SIZE=11pt]Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]The man was saved because of what Jesus was about to do for all mankind on that cross as promised by God the Father that all those who come to Him will not perish but have everlasting life.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]The Man was saved as soon as he was forgiven[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Its also important to note that whenever we see sickness in the Bible its very symbolic of sin in a man (especially things like [/SIZE]leprosy[SIZE=11pt]), Sin is like a [/SIZE]disease[SIZE=11pt] and it ultimately leads to death, Christ is the only one who can cure us of this [/SIZE]disease[SIZE=11pt].[/SIZE]

 

[Webers_Home]

Angelina has given me the structure/ and nature of an answer that I was
looking for.

Does the structure and nature of Angelina's answer match the structure and
nature of the answer given by the leader of your group?


Buen Camino
/

 

[Doug_E_Fresh]

No i'm referring to the original forum post. I was asking for an opinion about the passage. Not about leadership of the study.

 

[Webers_Home]

the leadership isn't the issue here.

This particular section of Christianity Board is not only set up for discussing
Bible Study, but also for discussing Discipleship. Well; when it comes to
discipleship, leadership is paramount.

†. Luke 6:39 . . A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not
both fall into a pit?

When serious Bible students are in a group whose leader says things that
just don't seem right; they need to get away from that leader and find
another one whom they feel confident knows what he/she is talking about. I
mean: what's the point of Bible study if all you're going to get out of it is
confusion and uncertainty?

Well; if all you're looking for is a bull session then I guess it doesn't matter if
the leader of your group knows what he/she is talking about; but as for me:
I much prefer the Lord's thoughts to bull.


Buen Camino
/

 

[Angelina]

That was not the question that was asked in the O/P. If you wish to start another topic...please do so.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Yes, it is a sidebar issue, but now that I think about it, Webers_Home is right. A question like that should have been answered quickly and competently if there were a qualified Bible study leader. The very fact it remained unresolved tells me that such leadership was lacking. That would be a good question for another thread, what constitutes an effective, edifying Bible study group. The group described in this OP seems to be just spinning their wheels. It's a point that needs to be made even if it seems off topic.