Mary, Mother of the Lord Jesus Christ

[Addy]

Perhaps the problem is:
People supposedly "studying" cannot answer questions they are asked...

If Body's of Saints ARE in Heaven, Mary's BODY, particularly (Mary, being the subject of this OP) ...where can anyone go to Verify that is True?

Glory to God,
Taken

Perhaps the problem is ARROGANCE on the part of some posters.

 

[Marymog]

Then why do Catholics do it?

Why do people sin when there is a commandment against it?

 

[Josho]

I need to address this as a former Catholic... and as a Christian... YOU are right... Jesus loved his mother very much... and his mother was an amazing role model... Just think about how hard it must have been to RELEASE her son.. her precious son to the MOB... and to then watch him be tortured and hung upon a cross to die like an animal... JUST think about that... and she REMAINED SILENT... think about that... SHE REMAINED SILENT... Why?? Because she KNEW that JESUS was fulfilling prophesy... She knew... oh how she knew... and her soul was torn apart with silent grief.
SO... in that light... OH MY GOODNESS. However... with the above said... she was a human being... just like you and me... God gave her the GRACE and the COURAGE to follow through on HIS WILL. I have a special love in my heart for Mary @Josho ... It is a love that I hold dear as a mother myself... it is a love that I have kept in my heart because being a mother is so very difficult. I think Catholics bring remembrance and honour to a place of idolatry... All good saints need to be remembered... but in the way the Catholics idolize them... it becomes a problem.
So... you keep that in your heart Joshno.

Thanks for your input, in response to the bottom few lines, I think it doesn't matter what Christian denomination you are from, we all sometimes fail to put the Lord Jesus first in our lives, we are flesh and bone human beings, that are not perfect, the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Mary's motherly love for Jesus, is the same sort of love we should aim for towards Jesus, as you may have seen in one of my earlier posts about Jesus turning the water into wine, it is quite an overlooked part of the story, but we should all be doing this.

In John 2:5 His (Jesus's) mother said to the servants "Whatever He says to you do it."

Whatever Jesus says to us we should do it. The servants at the feast then did what Jesus told then to do, that's an example we should follow.

In verse 5 we also learn that Mary had such a respect for him, she recognized who her Son was.

John 2:7-9 Jesus said to them "Fill the waterpots with water" And they filled them up to the brim. And He said to them, "Draw some out now, and take it to the master of the feast" And they took it. When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom.

Can you imagine, this being the first miracle of Jesus, the servants of the feast must have been absolutely amazed and wowed at what they saw, the disciples believed in Him!

John 2:11 This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and his disciples believed in Him.

 

[Addy]

@Josho Perhaps some people will take heed to how Christians are supposed to talk with and to each other. You and I embrace two totally opposing doctrines... You come from Word of Faith... I fought to escape it. Yet I sense in you a SWEET spirit... a gentle spirit... a reasoning spirit... a peaceful spirit. I see so many tearing down... and speaking harshly... and it really does have a bad effect... not to mention sets a very bad example.

I don't care HOW wise you THINK you are... If you can't speak/type with kindness and respect... you have nothing worth sharing. That is my humble little opinion.

Will climb down off my soap box now... LOL

 

[Taken]

And if I may add it is not just Catholics that ask the Blessed Mother and Saints to pray for us but also other Christians to like the Orthodox, Anglicans, and others. The oldest known Marian prayer is the Sub tuum praesidium which is from the 200's and is in use today in many Churches still. I found this about the foundations of Marian devotion in the Early Church Foundations of Marian Devotion in the Early Church, so devotions and prayers to the Theotokos are quite ancient

Asking another to pray for you, is too General, that glosses over the Truth.

Catholics teach Saints are "ONLY" in Heaven.

Scripture teaches men ALIVE in their Bodies are called to be Saints.

Scripture teaches a man (on Earth), who has ANSWERED the call...(accepted Jesus' Offering) to be MADE "Accounted Whole..."
* Is Bodily dead, living in Christ Jesus' living RISEN Body...
* Has their living soul restored to good, and Saved unto the Lord.
* Has their old Natural spirit (from a man's seed)... Dead.
* Has received Gods SEED, which births the man a NEW spirit.
* Waits for his "own Body" to be RISEN UP from death and mortality TO glory and immortality.

That person ^ having Answered the call, having Accepted Jesus' OFFERING...IS Accounted "A Saint"...while still Alive in his physical FLESH, face to face with "other ALIVE men in their FLESH.

That person ^ having Answered the call, having Accepted Jesus' OFFERING, is DIRECTED "TO" ask "Other men" WHO have answered the call, WHO have Accepted Jesus' Offering...also A Saint....TO PRAY FOR THEM.
(NOT)...
Ask Physical Bodies of Dead men to pray for them!
(NOT)
Ask men (not IN Christ) to pray for them.

Physically DEAD Body's Know Nothing.
The Lord Does NOT Hear the prayers of those NOT IN Christ.

In a nut shell WHY would an ALIVE Physical BODY, ask a physically DEAD BODY or Spiritually DEAD BODY to pray for him...when the prayer would Never be Heard by the Lord?

As far as a Living Body praying "TO" Saints IN Heaven...

Where in ALL of Scripture is it Taught To PRAY "TO" ANY Saints ... IN Heaven or ON Earth?

Scripture teaches FOR Saints TO Pray "FOR" Saints...not "TO" Saints.

Prayer "TO" is always Reserved being exclusively "TO" the Lord God Almighty.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The way I see it, is Catholics ask Mary and some other Saints to pray for us from Heaven.

As you are well aware some of us on these forums believe the saints are already in Heaven, I believe the Saints and Born Again Christians who have passed away here on earth are already in Heaven.

If we look at the 2nd half of the "Hail Mary"

"Holy Mary Mother of God,

pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death"

It's a request for Mary Mother of the Lord Jesus to pray for us.

Hey bro

I have one problem with this.. Mary and these other saints are not God, they could not possibly hear every prayer. Let alone all the prayers at once.

I think. This is the issue most people have with this thinking,,and while I do not personally believe catholics hold her up as dirty,I can understand why many do, based on this reasoning.. giving her attributes only God has

 

[Addy]

I don't believe discussing Catholic doctrine with NON Catholics is fruitful in a non denominational site. Discussing any kind of practices within the Catholic Church to anyone outside of it is never going to be acceptable or agreeable. I don't understand what is expected from these types of discussions... as they always lead to harsh accusations.

Ha ... and I typed this before seeing who posted it... and YEP... it was Joshno... HAHAHAHA.... WELL... there goes my theory... LOL

 

[Josho]

I don't believe discussing Catholic doctrine with NON Catholics is fruitful in a non denominational site. Discussing any kind of practices within the Catholic Church to anyone outside of it is never going to be acceptable or agreeable. I don't understand what is expected from these types of discussions... as they always lead to harsh accusations.

Ha ... and I typed this before seeing who posted it... and YEP... it was Joshno... HAHAHAHA.... WELL... there goes my theory... LOL

Hmm I wondered if the non-Catholics knew the scriptural references to the words in "Hail Mary."

Nancy has a good post showing all the scriptural references in post #17.

I honestly knew nothing about it until a few weeks ago, when I looked it up, and wondered where in the Bible do these words appear, and I was surprised that yep the lines in the "Hail Mary" are actually quoted verses from the Bible.

I can see why protestants have problems with it. But I don't know why many cannot respect a Catholic's point of view on this subject though, that this is why they believe and practice what they believe, many are very quick to jump to conclusions on Catholic doctrine.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hmm I wondered if the non-Catholics knew the scriptural references to the words in "Hail Mary."

Nancy has a good post showing all the scriptural references in post #17.

I honestly knew nothing about it until a few weeks ago, when I looked it up, and wondered where in the Bible do these words appear, and I was surprised that yep the lines in the "Hail Mary" are actually quoted verses from the Bible.

I can see why protestants have problems with it. But I don't know why many cannot respect a Catholic's point of view on this subject though, that this why they believe and practice what they believe, many are very quick to jump to conclusions on Catholic doctrine.

I agree especially on a non salvic doctrine, sadly these discussions do turn into debates which can get out of hand on both sides,,

 

[Josho]

@Eternally Grateful did you see post #143?

 

[Taken]

Perhaps the problem is ARROGANCE on the part of some posters.

Perhaps.
Like an example of Mary being such a great role model of a Mother because "she" released her son to a MOB.

I find no teaching of "her" son being in "her" custody, or "she" releasing/ turning "her" son over TO "Anyone".

I find evidence of a few times Mary was Present when Jesus was preaching...and both she and Jesus present at a Wedding they were each attending...but no evidence she was Following Jesus from every place to place, as did other women and men.

I find no evidence of Jesus sending Mary out to preach the Word of God.

In fact: I find scant reference to Mary "mothering" / "raising" Jesus as a boy, or "mothering" Jesus as an adult conducting His OWN Ministry.

Mary revealed she Trusted God, believed Jesus IS the Christ, Son of the living God, and felt Sorrow witnessing Jesus' torture and Crucifixion, as did many others.

I find no particular reference of "HOW" Mary loved "her" son differently than numerous other mothers have "loved" their sons...that she is a role model of "HOW" mothers should "love" their sons.

Where is this mysterious HOW Mary is a Motherly Role model, for How Mothers should "love" their "sons"?

And what about ALL the mother's BEFORE Mary? Did they FAIL in loving their sons, because they had no role model?

DO find IT Was God Himself who RAISED UP JESUS...

Deut. 18:
[15] The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

and God Himself who Prepared Jesus a FLESH Body (for When God sent Jesus TO Earth), Expressly to Give THAT Prepared FLESH Body, for the LIFE of the World, "WHO", Accepts His Offering.

Heb 10:
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

John 6
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give FOR the life of the world.

God Purposed IN HIMSELF "I am", To Effect His Will of Offering Mankind Salvation...Before a man's Physical Death. <--- the mystery revealed.

Eph 1:
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath Purposed IN himself:

Upon learning the Mystery...Jesus' OWN disciples Taught...sanctification / Salvation of an individual was MADE POSSIBLE...(to be achieved in a Bodily ALIVE Person)...bY the power of God.

Heb 10:
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Mary DID NOT send Jesus TO Earth.
Mary DID NOT raise up Jesus to Be a Prophet.
Mary DID NOT guide Jesus' Ministry.
Mary DID NOT offer/ release Jesus' Body.
Mary DID NOT raise Jesus' Body from the dead.

Mary is NOT the Role model to all Women or men IN "HOW" TO Love your Own Children...

That Role model In HOW TO Love an offspring and Every other person...IS the Lord God Himself.

The SINLESS Intercessory TO God IS the Lord Himself...WHO revealed Himself AS the Model, Example and Express Image of LOVE and the Holy God Himself.

What IS the point of Trying to Mininmize the Great Offering of God Himself (who is Without Beginning)...to a CREATED thing, aka Mary?

How does a man reconcile...
Praying TO Mary, Exalting Mary, Using Mary as an Intercessory to God, Bowing down to Statues (in Mary's supposed Likeness), Kissing the Statue (made of plaster/stone), and some Worshiping Mary....

The Conflict...God Opposed?

Rom 1:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

"Say three “Hail Marys” for Faith, Hope, and Charity"

Mary is the ONE Prayed "TO"..."FOR"
Faith, Hope and Charity?

Sort of MAKES "Gods Works, teaching, sending Jesus" irrelevant!...

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Addy]

Perhaps.
Like an example of Mary being such a great role model of a Mother because "she" released her son to a MOB.

I find no teaching of "her" son being in "her" custody, or "she" releasing/ turning "her" son over TO "Anyone".

I find evidence of a few times Mary was Present when Jesus was preaching...and both she and Jesus present at a Wedding they were each attending...but no evidence she was Following Jesus from every place to place, as did other women and men.

I find no evidence of Jesus sending Mary out to preach the Word of God.

In fact: I find scant reference to Mary "mothering" / "raising" Jesus as a boy, or "mothering" Jesus as an adult conducting His OWN Ministry.

Mary revealed she Trusted God, believed Jesus IS the Christ, Son of the living God, and felt Sorrow witnessing Jesus' torture and Crucifixion, as did many others.

I find no particular reference of "HOW" Mary loved "her" son differently than numerous other mothers have "loved" their sons...that she is a role model of "HOW" mothers should "love" their sons.

Where is this mysterious HOW Mary is a Motherly Role model, for How Mothers should "love" their "sons"?

And what about ALL the mother's BEFORE Mary? Did they FAIL in loving their sons, because they had no role model?

DO find IT Was God Himself who RAISED UP JESUS...

Deut. 18:
[15] The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

and God Himself who Prepared Jesus a FLESH Body (for When God sent Jesus TO Earth), Expressly to Give THAT Prepared FLESH Body, for the LIFE of the World, "WHO", Accepts His Offering.

Heb 10:
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

John 6
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give FOR the life of the world.

God Purposed IN HIMSELF "I am", To Effect His Will of Offering Mankind Salvation...Before a man's Physical Death. <--- the mystery revealed.

Eph 1:
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath Purposed IN himself:

Upon learning the Mystery...Jesus' OWN disciples Taught...sanctification / Salvation of an individual was MADE POSSIBLE...(to be achieved in a Bodily ALIVE Person)...bY the power of God.

Heb 10:
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Mary DID NOT send Jesus TO Earth.
Mary DID NOT raise up Jesus to Be a Prophet.
Mary DID NOT guide Jesus' Ministry.
Mary DID NOT offer/ release Jesus' Body.
Mary DID NOT raise Jesus' Body from the dead.

Mary is NOT the Role model to all Women or men IN "HOW" TO Love your Own Children...

That Role model In HOW TO Love an offspring and Every other person...IS the Lord God Himself.

The SINLESS Intercessory TO God IS the Lord Himself...WHO revealed Himself AS the Model, Example and Express Image of LOVE and the Holy God Himself.

What IS the point of Trying to Mininmize the Great Offering of God Himself (who is Without Beginning)...to a CREATED thing, aka Mary?

How does a man reconcile...
Praying TO Mary, Exalting Mary, Using Mary as an Intercessory to God, Bowing down to Statues (in Mary's supposed Likeness), Kissing the Statue (made of plaster/stone), and some Worshiping Mary....

The Conflict...God Opposed?

Rom 1:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

"Say three “Hail Marys” for Faith, Hope, and Charity"

Mary is the ONE Prayed "TO"..."FOR"
Faith, Hope and Charity?

Sort of MAKES "Gods Works, teaching, sending Jesus" irrelevant!...

Glory to God,
Taken

I take no pleasure in feeding posters like you because all you seem to want to do is ACCUSE and BELITTLE... therefore... this little sheep is on her way to lay at the Feet of the Shepherd... I left the Catholic Church a great many years ago... and I don't think anyone in this human world can HATE that institution as much as I do... It caused an absolute breakdown in a relationship between me and my own mother... so don't you dare tell me that I am embracing a false doctrine... I had a heart to heart talk with @Joshno... and you chose to twist my words... YES Mary released her son to the MOB.... That does not mean he was with her... It means she SAW... she KNEW. RESPECT is something that far too many people FORGET to give when they engage in on line conversations. This interaction has been duly noted by myself... and I can assure you this will be the LAST one.

 

[Helen]

And I don't believe Catholics pray to Mary but they ask Mary to pray for them and us, they ask Mary to intercede for them and us. I believe Catholics worship only one God, the LORD Jesus Christ.

Can one pray from Heaven? God knows the answer to that question. I would say so, if one can pray on earth, I think we can say those in Heaven can pray for us.

Well @Josho .. I know that you are very young.....and I believe that you are being seduced by a false spirit ....and believing it. I say this because you seem to be are confused right now and not knowing what you DO believe.

You say -“I don’t think Catholics pray TO Mary , but they ASK Mary to pray for them , they ASK Mary to intercede for them. “

That my friend is speaking to the dead! I may as well ask my mum and my dad, good strong Christians , to pray for me !!!!

That my friends is anti -scripture. .

As I said before...it is one thing for Marymog and BresdOfLife to stand up for their Catholic religion ..and, as I said before I have only ever seen them DEFEND their religion ....I have NEVER seen them start a thread or push their religion.
If this is what you are going to be doing , then I too , along with @Adoration may well be on the wrong Site.

My bible tells me that -
“THERE IS ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN ...THE MAN CHRIST JESUS..OUR LORD. “

And yes...I was shouting the one and only truth.

@Angelina @Heart2Soul @lforrest

 

[Addy]

Well @Josho .. I know that you are very young.....and I believe that you are being seduced by a false spirit ....and believing it. I say this because you are confused .
You say -“I don’t think Catholics pray TO Mary , but they ASK Mary to pray for them , they ASK Mary to intercede for them. “

That my friend is speaking to the dead!
That my friends is anti -scripture. .

As I said before...it is one thing for Marymog and BresdOfLife to stand up for their Catholic religion ..and, as I said before I have only ever seen the DEFEND their religion ....I have NEVER seen them start a thread or push their religion.
If this is what you are going to be doing , then I too , along with @Adoration are on the wrong Site.

My bible tells me that -
“THERE IS ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN ...THE MAN CHRIST JESUS..OUR LORD. “

And yes...I was shouting the one and only truth.

@Angilina @Heart2Soul @lforrest

Oh DEAR.... I STAND behind this post that was written... however... I do believe that Joshno was simply trying to bring forth the thought that Mary was loved by Jesus and that he doesn't believe that Catholics pray TO her... HE is not Catholic and so he would not know...

Again... because of a motherly conversation that I have had with him about a Mother's heart... it makes myself SEEM to be EMBRACING this practice of praying to Mary or anyone... I will repeat.. that I am an EX CATHOLIC...and that I do not think anyone can hate this false religion as much as I do... but I do believe in RESPECT when speaking to others... SO.... I seem to keep finding the WRONG posts... LOL...

LEAD me to the PASTURE.... LOL

 

[Cristo Rei]

I'm a Catholic but I don't practice the doctrine of intercession, the RCC doesn't demand it.

One way i look at it is like sending a message.
I can send my message to the Blessed Mother who in turn sends it to God,
Or I can send my message to God, direct.

 

[Heart2Soul]

The ONLY reason Mary was chosen to be the mother of Jesus is because of her lineage....and for the fulfillment of prophesy.

 

[Nancy]

I need to address this as a former Catholic... and as a Christian... YOU are right... Jesus loved his mother very much... and his mother was an amazing role model... Just think about how hard it must have been to RELEASE her son.. her precious son to the MOB... and to then watch him be tortured and hung upon a cross to die like an animal... JUST think about that... and she REMAINED SILENT... think about that... SHE REMAINED SILENT... Why?? Because she KNEW that JESUS was fulfilling prophesy... She knew... oh how she knew... and her soul was torn apart with silent grief.
SO... in that light... OH MY GOODNESS. However... with the above said... she was a human being... just like you and me... God gave her the GRACE and the COURAGE to follow through on HIS WILL. I have a special love in my heart for Mary @Josho ... It is a love that I hold dear as a mother myself... it is a love that I have kept in my heart because being a mother is so very difficult. I think Catholics bring remembrance and honour to a place of idolatry... All good saints need to be remembered... but in the way the Catholics idolize them... it becomes a problem.
So... you keep that in your heart Joshno.

Wonderful post @Adoration ,
I too come from Catholicism but never learned a thing and same for my siblings. Yes Mary was a human being being used of God as many before and after her. I will not dishonor any saint of God. Mary is blessed among women and the word does say that so...she deserves honor and respect but NOT worship or prayers or graven images of her!
These kinds of threads, even though highly controversial, can be tough to pass on if I get an alert that someone posted on it. But, for the most part, I learned how to pick my battles on here, lol!
Bless You

 

[Addy]

The ONLY reason Mary was chosen to be the mother of Jesus is because of her lineage....and for the fulfillment of prophesy.

THIS is CORRECT!!!

 

[Addy]

Wonderful post @Adoration ,
I too come from Catholicism but never learned a thing and same for my siblings. Yes Mary was a human being being used of God as many before and after her. I will not dishonor any saint of God. Mary is blessed among women and the word does say that so...she deserves honor and respect but NOT worship or prayers or graven images of her!
These kinds of threads, even though highly controversial, can be tough to pass on if I get an alert that someone posted on it. But, for the most part, I learned how to pick my battles on here, lol!
Bless You

I have no idea how or why I ended up here... I woke up early... LOL... That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Cristo Rei]

But I don't know why many cannot respect a Catholic's point of view on this subject though, that this is why they believe and practice what they believe, many are very quick to jump to conclusions on Catholic doctrine.

The main thing that non-Catholics should understand is apostolic succession.
According to the RCC the age of apostleship didn't end with Paul and John, it continued through the ministry of the Church.
So, when a Pope creates a doctrine he does it with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, it doesn't need any foundation in scripture.

Now, you may not agree with apostolic succession and prefer to remain sola scripture and that's fine.
But as long as we understand the differences between sola scripture and apostolic succession then there should be some understanding.

The bigger question is this... Did the age of apostleship end with Paul and John or did it continued through the church???