Mary, Queen of Heaven

[justbyfaith]

Did you know that in 2 Samuel 6:23 it says that Michal, the daughter of Saul, had no child “until” the day of her death. Does that mean she had a child AFTER she died?

The specific word, in the kjv, is "unto"

 

[justbyfaith]

Since you can't show me in Scripture where Mary gave birth to other children, you can't refute the other translation of that word,

Yet there is a distinct possibility that the word adelphos in Mark 6:2-4 means "brother" and that when it says "sisters" in the same passage, it means "sisters".

Does your Catholic Bible translate these things as "cousins"?

Please answer this question.

How does it make the distinction between Jesus' male and female "cousins"?

What does it say in the English?

I would say that I believe that that is a mistranslation if it is translated thus.

You have to disregard the plain English translation of the kjv in order to hold on to your Catholic dogma.

Therefore, if the kjv-only or kjv-superior position is a part of the narrow path that leads to life (Matthew 7:13-14), you are going to find yourself walking down the broad path that leads to destruction.

 

[Marymog]

See Matthew 1:25.

And see Ezra 4:21 for an understanding of the word "until".

Hi JBF,

See 2 Samuel 6:23.....1 Timothy 4:13....1 Corinthians 15:25....Acts 25:21

 

[Marymog]

The specific word, in the kjv, is "unto"

Well then, if its in the KJV I surrender. You are right, I am wrong.

 

[Taken]

Soooo when a woman becomes pregnant with Gods child...

O woman became pregnant, was pregnant, supernaturally with a Holy Thing and naturally delivered the Son of man...

the man (in this situation God) is not the spouse of that woman?

No. God is not a man. No she is not Gods wife. (No mention or implication of any Seed, marriage, intercourse) God SENT a Holy Thing, to Mary's Womb, to be revealed in the Likeness as a man, 9 months later, according to the Law of Nature.
Later- that Holy Thing revealed to be The Word of God.
Said He would be called other things.

If He is not the spouse, what is he?

God, with supernatural powers.

What is a Physician called who can cause a virgin woman to become Pregnant,
Without his Seed?
Probably Doctor, not God, and not the woman's husband.

What is she?

A useful servant, Faithful, unmarried, virgin, young, Jewish, woman, about to be married, making a child born of her, a Son of King David and lawful heir to Davids Throne and Abraham's lawful heir to his Promised Land.

Was adultery involved?

No.

 

[Renniks]

What did He look like when you met Him? What was He wearing? How tall is He?

Curious Mary

I met him through the introduction of the Holy Spirit, not physically. And you didn't answer my questions.

 

[Marymog]

Yet there is a distinct possibility that the word adelphos in Mark 6:2-4 means "brother" and that when it says "sisters" in the same passage, it means "sisters".

Does your Catholic Bible translate these things as "cousins"?

Please answer this question.

How does it make the distinction between Jesus' male and female "cousins"?

What does it say in the English?

I would say that I believe that that is a mistranslation if it is translated thus.

You have to disregard the plain English translation of the kjv in order to hold on to your Catholic dogma.

Therefore, if the kjv-only or kjv-superior position is a part of the narrow path that leads to life (Matthew 7:13-14), you are going to find yourself walking down the broad path that leads to destruction.

In that passage the greek word could mean a sister, a woman (fellow-)member of a church, a Christian woman

 

[Renniks]

Since you can't show me in Scripture where Mary gave birth to other children, you can't refute the other translation of that word, I CAN account for those "brothers" true mothers and I have historical writings...yes, that evil Catholic tradition,...to come to my "likely conclusion" that means your "conclusion" lakes merit and logic.

Like I said, you have nothing. Tradition, tradition! Tradition isn't truth.
Show me from scripture that she never had other children. You can't, so you have the weaker conclusion. I at least can show that it's the most likely situationthat Jesus' brothers were his mother's kids. You have to create a situation that's not even alluded to.

 

[Marymog]

I met him through the introduction of the Holy Spirit, not physically. And you didn't answer my questions.

Ok....I will answer your question: How can I truly love someone I've never met?

I don't know how or if you can truly love anyone! Only you do!

 

[Marymog]

Like I said, you have nothing. Tradition, tradition! Tradition isn't truth.
Show me from scripture that she never had other children. You can't, so you have the weaker conclusion. I at least can show that it's the most likely situationthat Jesus' brothers were his mother's kids. You have to create a situation that's not even alluded to.

Just show me in Scripture where Mary gave birth to other children and I will join your church. What church do you belong to BTW?

 

[Renniks]

Ok....I will answer your question: How can I truly love someone I've never met?

I don't know how or if you can truly love anyone! Only you do!

Ok, let me put it this way; why should I glorify a human that God doesn't ask me to glorify? That's putting someone else in Jesus' place.

 

[Marymog]

Ok, let me put it this way; why should I glorify a human that God doesn't ask me to glorify? That's putting someone else in Jesus' place.

You are right. To glorify (praise and worship) any human would be a violation of Gods law so you shouldn't do that.

 

[Marymog]

Like I said, you have nothing. Tradition, tradition! Tradition isn't truth.
Show me from scripture that she never had other children. You can't, so you have the weaker conclusion. I at least can show that it's the most likely situationthat Jesus' brothers were his mother's kids. You have to create a situation that's not even alluded to.

Brothers/sisters in those passages could be fellow Christians, cousins, half-siblings sooooo neither of us have a leg to stand on. Zero points for either of us.

Even if Mary and Joseph consummated their marriage scripture does not say she became pregnant. Zero points for both of us.

The mothers of the brothers mentioned in Scripture can be accounted for via other passages from Scripture. One point for me.

No where in Scripture does it say that Mary had other children. One point for me.

Since the earliest parts of Christianity it has been taught that Mary was a perpetual virgin. Your teaching is 500 years old. One point for me.

3-0 you loose

 

[justbyfaith]

In that passage the greek word could mean a sister, a woman (fellow-)member of a church, a Christian woman

But it doesn't; because in context (Mark 6:2-4), Jesus speaks of his own kin.

Try to read the holy scriptures objectively.

 

[justbyfaith]

The mothers of the brothers mentioned in Scripture can be accounted for via other passages from Scripture. One point for me.

You have yet to show this scripturally if it is the case..

No where in Scripture does it say that Mary had other children. One point for me.

Except that your statement is objectively false.

Since the earliest parts of Christianity it has been taught that Mary was a perpetual virgin. Your teaching is 500 years old. One point for me.

That the revelation of the truth came to us 500 yrs ago and not from the beginning in no way defines the new revelation as a falsehood. As it is written,

Hab 2:1, I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved.
Hab 2:2, And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.
Hab 2:3, For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
Hab 2:4, Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

 

[Renniks]

Brothers/sisters in those passages could be fellow Christians, cousins, half-siblings sooooo neither of us have a leg to stand on. Zero points for either of us.

Even if Mary and Joseph consummated their marriage scripture does not say she became pregnant. Zero points for both of us.

The mothers of the brothers mentioned in Scripture can be accounted for via other passages from Scripture. One point for me.

No where in Scripture does it say that Mary had other children. One point for me.

Since the earliest parts of Christianity it has been taught that Mary was a perpetual virgin. Your teaching is 500 years old. One point for me.

3-0 you loose

Lol... You really like the grade yourself on a curve don't you?


The birth of Jesus was the result of a supernatural union between God and Mary. She was a virgin at the time Jesus was conceived. There are some who maintain that Mary remained a virgin throughout her life...The Scriptures, however, indicate that Jesus did have brothers and sisters.


The first testimony that Mary did not remain a virgin can be found in the opening chapter of Matthew. When Joseph had discovered that Mary was going to have a child, he decided to secretly divorce her. He had not had sexual relations with her and knew the child was not his. But an angel appeared to Joseph in a dream and told him that his wife's pregnancy was through God, the Holy Spirit. Later we are told:

And he did not know her until she gave birth to a Son; and he named him Jesus (Matthew 1:25).

Matthew 1:25 strongly suggest that Joseph had normal sexual relations with Mary after the birth of Jesus. Thus this passage provides a strong argument against any idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary. Furthermore, Scripture gives testimony to the fact that Joseph and Mary had other children who were brothers and sisters of Jesus.
But even stronger evidence is found here:
" Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and the brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?' And they were offended at him (Mark 6:3).

Although one cannot be absolutely certain on the matter, but the natural sense in which to take the references is they were his actual younger brothers and sisters.

John tells us that during the ministry of Jesus "even His brothers did not believe in Him" (John 7:5). Later, however, they became active leaders in the church with two of them (James and Jude) writing letters that became part of the New Testament.

This would seem to indicate actual brothers, other children of Joseph and Mary, rather than stepbrothers. But one cannot be absolutely certain, because it's not explicitly stated that they were Mary's kids. What is certain, however, is that the Scripture does not rule out the possibility of Jesus having brothers and sisters born to Joseph and Mary.

 

[Marymog]

But it doesn't; because in context (Mark 6:2-4), Jesus speaks of his own kin.

Try to read the holy scriptures objectively.

Hi JBF,

Ohhhhh.....I see. For 1,500 years no one read the Holy Scriptures objectively? It took the Reformers to FINALLY read them objectively? I take that back. The men of The Reformation didn't even believe what you believe sooooo they weren't objective either. It was the men that disagreed with the reformers that were FINALLY objective.

 

[Renniks]

You are right. To glorify (praise and worship) any human would be a violation of Gods law so you shouldn't do that.

And yet Catholics do just that. I've heard their prayers. It's creepy the way they glorify Mary...as if they have to go through her to get to Jesus.

 

[Renniks]

Hi JBF,

Ohhhhh.....I see. For 1,500 years no one read the Holy Scriptures objectively? It took the Reformers to FINALLY read them objectively? I take that back. The men of The Reformation didn't even believe what you believe sooooo they weren't objective either. It was the men that disagreed with the reformers that were FINALLY objective.

Tertullian (d. circa 200) rejected the apocryphal protogospel and with it Mary's virginitas in partu and her virginitas post partum (see De carne Christi, 23).

There is a common misunderstanding that Irenaeus supported the notion of ever-virginity. He didn't.

And if the former [Eve] did disobey God, yet the latter was persuaded to be obedient to God, in order that the Virgin Mary might become the patroness4617 (advocata) of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. Philip Schaff: ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Everyone agrees that the virgin Eve did not remain in that state. Yet, people skip that application!

As to other allegations about Polycarp, Justin Martyr, and Ignatius also believing in an ever-virgin motif, please note that no quotations from them are provided that say such beliefs. In other words, there's no proof any of them taught or thought that Jesus was born in any way but by a normal human birth.

So to claim in the early church every one believing in Mary s perpetual virginity is incorrect.

 

[marks]

Marymog said: ↑
You are right. To glorify (praise and worship) any human would be a violation of Gods law so you shouldn't do that.

...as if they have to go through her to get to Jesus.

Hi @Marymog , @Mungo , I've heard this objection to Catholic practice concerning Mary, is this the right way to understand your view about Mary and Jesus in heaven, that we are afforded a greater audience with Jesus if we accord Mary her proper honor?

Much love!