Mary, Queen of Heaven

[tabletalk]

Hello Renniks,

OK....What is important is that you show me writings of Christian men from the early Church that were teaching against Mary's perpetual virginity!!

Of course what Jerome said has bearing. It appears he was privy to writings from those men that didn't survive. Silence on the matter doesn't negate the possibility those men wrote about. As we have seen there was no silence on the matter. Jerome suggested they DID write about it and believed it. Once again: Do you think Jerome was lying?

I look forward to your evidence....Patient Mary

Was Jerome lying when he said this:

"The presbyter is the same as the bishop, and before parties had been raised up in religion by the provocations of Satan, the churches were governed by the Senate of the presbyters. But as each one sought to appropriate to himself those whom he had baptized, instead of leading them to Christ, it was appointed that one of the presbyters, elected by his colleagues, should be set over all the others, and have chief supervision over the general well-being of the community. . . Without doubt it is the duty of the presbyters to bear in mind that by the discipline of the Church they are subordinated to him who has been given them as their head, but it is fitting that the bishops, on their side, do not forget that if they are set over the presbyters, it is the result of tradition, and not by the fact of a particular institution by the Lord."

So the separate office of Bishop is not a command of the Scriptures, but only survives due to tradition and practical concerns.
There are two offices: Presbyters/Bishops and Deacons.

 

[Renniks]

Not playing that game kiddo. Answer my question first and I will answer yours: Do you think Jerome was lying?

I have no idea. I never met Jerome, so can't say whether he was apt to fib or not.
Basing theology on something a so called " saint" said will have us embracing all kinds of contradicting doctrines.

 

[Mungo]

What is a lie? That your pope endorses same-sex marriage?

Yes.

 

[Renniks]

Yes.

He called for civil unions for gay couples...

 

[Marymog]

Was Jerome lying when he said this:

"The presbyter is the same as the bishop, and before parties had been raised up in religion by the provocations of Satan, the churches were governed by the Senate of the presbyters. But as each one sought to appropriate to himself those whom he had baptized, instead of leading them to Christ, it was appointed that one of the presbyters, elected by his colleagues, should be set over all the others, and have chief supervision over the general well-being of the community. . . Without doubt it is the duty of the presbyters to bear in mind that by the discipline of the Church they are subordinated to him who has been given them as their head, but it is fitting that the bishops, on their side, do not forget that if they are set over the presbyters, it is the result of tradition, and not by the fact of a particular institution by the Lord."

So the separate office of Bishop is not a command of the Scriptures, but only survives due to tradition and practical concerns.
There are two offices: Presbyters/Bishops and Deacons.

Hi TT,

Thanks for joining the conversation. No need to go down another rabbit trail. How about we stick to the subject at hand?

Do you think Jerome lied when he said those men accepted perpetual virginity teaching?

 

[Marymog]

I have no idea. I never met Jerome, so can't say whether he was apt to fib or not.
Basing theology on something a so called " saint" said will have us embracing all kinds of contradicting doctrines.

Since you have no evidence that he lied we can only presume he was telling the truth.....Thank you for your time.

 

[Marymog]

Was Jerome lying when he said this:

"The presbyter is the same as the bishop, and before parties had been raised up in religion by the provocations of Satan, the churches were governed by the Senate of the presbyters. But as each one sought to appropriate to himself those whom he had baptized, instead of leading them to Christ, it was appointed that one of the presbyters, elected by his colleagues, should be set over all the others, and have chief supervision over the general well-being of the community. . . Without doubt it is the duty of the presbyters to bear in mind that by the discipline of the Church they are subordinated to him who has been given them as their head, but it is fitting that the bishops, on their side, do not forget that if they are set over the presbyters, it is the result of tradition, and not by the fact of a particular institution by the Lord."

So the separate office of Bishop is not a command of the Scriptures, but only survives due to tradition and practical concerns.
There are two offices: Presbyters/Bishops and Deacons.

Hi TT,

Jerome was not rejecting tradition when he wrote that. Before you TRY to suggest Jerome rejected tradition you should read ALL his writings. Or just do a simple google search?


Church-traditions—especially when they do not run counter to the faith—are to be observed in the form in which previous generations have handed them down....In such matters each province may follow its own inclinations, and the traditions which have been handed
down should be regarded as apostolic laws.(letter to Lucinius)

According to the traditions of the church and the teaching of the apostle Paul, the answer must be this;

For many other observances of the Churches, which are due to tradition, have acquired the authority of the written law

Keeping it real....Mary

 

[marks]

Your first comment that Jesus gives a greater weight to petitions made by His mother is true. Wouldn't you do the same for your mother over me?

I'm not sure that's relevant. If I do it, it's being a "respector of persons". I take the happenstance of my birth to hold one person more important than another

But again, I appreciate your answering my questions for me, I think I have a lot better clarity on this view.

Much love!

 

[Mungo]

He called for civil unions for gay couples...

That's not gay marriage.

That was instructive. It shows up how careless you are with the truth.

 

[Marymog]

I'm not sure that's relevant. If I do it, it's being a "respector of persons". I take the happenstance of my birth to hold one person more important than another

But again, I appreciate your answering my questions for me, I think I have a lot better clarity on this view.

Much love!

Thank you marks. I certainly wish others on here were as kind as you are.

I believe that fulfilling a request from your mother over me is relevant. It has nothing to do with the happenstance of your birth. It has to do with Scripture: Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

I would EXPECT you to fulfill your mothers request over mine!! But that's just me....

Respectfully, Mary

 

[Marymog]

He called for civil unions for gay couples...

It is true....He did....

 

[Marymog]

What is a lie? That your pope endorses same-sex marriage?

From what I understand the pope endorses same sex civil marriage (government approved marriage) but not same sex marriage (Church approved marriage). Lil' Bit of a difference but what the pope said is opposite of what the church teaches, believes, practices etc. He makes me angry sometimes...

 

[Mungo]

From what I understand the pope endorses same sex civil marriage (government approved marriage) but not same sex marriage (Church approved marriage). Lil' Bit of a difference but what the pope said is opposite of what the church teaches, believes, practices etc. He makes me angry sometimes...

Civil partnerships are not the same as civil marriage, same sex or not.

 

[Renniks]

Since you have no evidence that he lied we can only presume he was telling the truth.....Thank you for your time.

Since you have no evidence he was correct, I can only presume you are just following hearsay.

 

[Renniks]

That's not gay marriage.

That was instructive. It shows up how careless you are with the truth.

What's the difference? He is not biblical in his treatment of homosexuality, that's all you need to know. How can you follow this pope? And of course, there have been all kinds of corrupt popes, but the Catholic doctrine claims they all speak for God. How can that make any sense to anyone? It's mindboggling. I know a protestant guy who joined the Catholic church but doesn't agree with the pope. How does that even work?

 

[Renniks]

From what I understand the pope endorses same sex civil marriage (government approved marriage) but not same sex marriage (Church approved marriage). Lil' Bit of a difference but what the pope said is opposite of what the church teaches, believes, practices etc. He makes me angry sometimes...

If you can't agree with your leader, who is supposed to speak God's words, how can you be Catholic?

 

[Mungo]

Two interesting articles on what the Pope said regarding civil unions from CNA (Catholic News Agency)
.
What did Pope Francis say about civil unions? A CNA Explainer
A couple of quotes:
On civil unions, the pope said that: “What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered.”

“I stood up for that,” Pope Francis added, apparently in reference to his proposal to brother bishops, during a 2010 debate in Argentina over gay marriage, that accepting civil unions might be a way to prevent the passage of same-sex marriage laws in the country.
and
What did Pope Francis say about gay marriage?

Nothing. The topic of gay marriage was not discussed in the documentary. In his ministry, Pope Francis has frequently affirmed the doctrinal teaching of the Catholic Church that marriage is a lifelong partnership between one man and one woman.

Context of pope’s ‘civil union’ documentary comment reported
This one is interesting. Again a couple of quotes:
While filmmaker Evgeny Afineevsky told CNA and other journalists that Pope Francis made comments calling for the passage of civil union laws directly to him, it later emerged that the comments were actually part of a 2019 interview of Pope Francis conducted by Mexican journalist Valentina Alazraki.

It was subsequently revealed that several sentences spoken by the pope in the documentary were spliced together, out of context, from the 2019 interview, and journalists have since then asked questions about the precise nature of the pope’s remarks on civil unions.
and
A CNA analysis found that comments from the pope presented in the documentary before his remarks on civil unions were heavily edited, with various phrases from the 2019 interview strung together as presented as a cohesive whole.

 

[Mungo]

What's the difference? He is not biblical in his treatment of homosexuality, that's all you need to know. How can you follow this pope? And of course, there have been all kinds of corrupt popes, but the Catholic doctrine claims they all speak for God. How can that make any sense to anyone? It's mindboggling. I know a protestant guy who joined the Catholic church but doesn't agree with the pope. How does that even work?

A lot of difference. All that I need to know about you is that you are careless with the truth.

 

[Renniks]

A lot of difference. All that I need to know about you is that you are careless with the truth.

No answers I see.

 

[Mungo]

No answers I see.

Nothing to answer.
You told a lie about the pope changing church teaching, claiming he endorsed same sex marriage.
I exposed your lie.
That's all we need to know.