David in NJ
Well-Known Member
You caught me - i'm busted for seeing what God says is true = IN PLAIN VIEW - lol
Matthew 28:19 – Trinity corrupted verse
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You caught me - i'm busted for seeing what God says is true = IN PLAIN VIEW - lol
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
Well, ... here's what your experts have to say about it.
Holy Trinity - God - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - WJEC - BBC Bitesize.
Here's another example. This diagram was created by the experts of your team to help your team make sense of this senseless concept.
1. 3 beings
2. Separate & Different
3. All God
=
Heresy!
Don't defend concepts that are inherently unsound. You only harm your own credibility.
There are SO many of you on these forums that don't even know what you're fighting for. You just want to be here to argue and cause stress, dissention and confusion. As long as you're doing that, you're satisfied.
Even revered experts on the Trinity admit it is confusing. Well, God is not the author of confusion.
1 Corinthians 14:33
God bless those who care to be blessed.
It has been said for years that ignorance is bliss. I suppose you are living proof
You like strawman defenses to hide your own inadequacies don't you?
No, its a false one and only supported by Catholic dogma
OK
Its not what I "think"- its a fact. There's a difference.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
"I welcome any scripture ( no other authority or source would be recognized with any validity)" is not in scripture. It's a man made tradition. "Bible alone" theology ultimately places the individual as the sole source of authority; it doesn't work. Countless divisions is self-evident.
Wrong. The Trinity is supported by Orthodox and most Protestants. That leaves you way out in left field. Your anti-trinity screeching is similar to the JW's and the SDA's. Come out of the shadows and identify which "valid authority" you accept.
It is not a fact. "RCC" is a blanket term that excludes the other 22 Catholic rites. "Roman" or "Latin" rite is only one rite. This has been explained 1000 times on this forum. "CC" is more accurate, and easier to type.
The Catholic Church and Her 23 Liturgical Rites
There is nothing factual about what you think. You display ignorance of Catholicism the same as you display ignorance of the Trinity.
Anti-trinity threads like this one should be moved to the "Unorthodox doctrine" forum.
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Well, ... here's what your experts have to say about it.
Holy Trinity - God - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - WJEC - BBC Bitesize.
Here's another example. This diagram was created by the experts of your team to help your team make sense of this senseless concept.
1. 3 beings
2. Separate & Different
3. All God
=
Heresy!
Don't defend concepts that are inherently unsound. You only harm your own credibility.
There are SO many of you on these forums that don't even know what you're fighting for. You just want to be here to argue and cause stress, dissention and confusion. As long as you're doing that, you're satisfied.
Even revered experts on the Trinity admit it is confusing. Well, God is not the author of confusion.
1 Corinthians 14:33
God bless those who care to be blessed.
You can't even read your own links.
"The Trinity refers to the idea that God is one, but can be experienced in three different Persons."
Three persons not beings. There is only one being - God, just as the diagram shows.
Here is a Catholic definition from Catholic Culture:
TRINITY, THE HOLY
Definition
A term used since A.D. 200 to denote the central doctrine of the Christian religion. God, who is one and unique in his infinite substance or nature, is three really distinct persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The one and only God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Yet God the Father is not God the Son, but generates the Son eternally, as the Son is eternally begotten. The Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son, but a distinct person having the divine nature from the Father and the Son by eternal procession. The three divine persons are co-equal, co-eternal, and consubstantial and deserve co-equal glory and adoration.
"Don’t criticize what you can’t understand" - Bob Dylan
No, all scripture is God breathed and profitable..... (2 Tim 3:16). Scripture is its own authority, man either understands it or not.
That's a deliberately circular argument. What is the definition of "person" in context with this then?
Then differentiate it from "being" in the same context.
You are obfuscating again. As I said in post #548
The assertion you made was that "Overall, the "trinity doctrine" (as it is commonly referred to in most Anglo cultures) is a man made false doctrine born mainly out of RCC manipulation and some serious transliteration errors
You have made no attempt to justify that.
You asked for a definition of Trinity.
I gave you one.
Why is it a false definition?
It is not a fact.
You don't seem to understand that your opinions are opinions, not facts.
Here's one, there is no reference to even the concept of a trinity in Greek or Hebrew traditions or teachings. It only starts appearing around 200 years AD.
The transliteration errors come from a total lack of understanding of the Hebrew and Greek words.
There is ONE God. There is ONE Son. The HS is a part of the Father. None of that equals 3 other than in some non scriptural romantic prose.
I wasn't quoting an opinion nor was I debating you- I was correcting you.
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Illuminator
Well-Known Member
1. If the Bible teaches that there is one God, why do Catholics teach that that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God? That’s three Gods.
Perhaps the most common objection to the Trinity is that the numbers don’t seem to add up. Those who don’t accept the idea of a Trinity are usually under the impression that Catholics are content to say that the difficulty can be resolved by taking refuge in the “God is a mystery” argument.
Believing in a mystery does not mean believing in something that is unreasonable or illogical but rather in something you do not have the capacity to ever know completely—such as God. It isn’t something you can’t know anything about; it is something you can’t know everything about.
You’ll still need to demonstrate that the idea of three Persons and one God is not illogical. To begin, explain the difference between being and person. Beinganswers the question “What?” and person answers the question “Who?” For example, pointing to my mother, the question “What is she?” is answered with, “A human being.” The question of “Who is she?” is answered with, “Janie.”
All persons are beings, but not all beings are persons. For example, you are one being and one person. But a dog is one being and zero persons. With regard to the Trinity, there is one being, which is God, yet there are there Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is not illogical. If one were to say that there is one God and three Gods, or one Person and three Persons—that would be illogical. But one Being and three Persons is not a contradiction.
2. Some people say that Trinity was one divine Person using three different modes. Is that sort of what Catholics teach?
This is an ancient heresy that has resurfaced in recent years in the Oneness Pentecostal denomination, so you’ll need to be on the lookout for it in your discussions. Originally, this idea was known as modalism, sabellianism, or patripassianism. The Church rejected the concept, since Scripture is clear in demonstrating that the three Persons of the Trinity are distinct. For example, when Jesus prayed to the Father in the Garden of Gethsemane, it is clear that he was not talking to himself. When Jesus told the apostles that he was leaving them to go to the Father in order to send the Holy Spirit, it becomes very confusing if there was only one person playing three roles. If Jesus was the Father, why would he have to go somewhere to be with himself, and if Jesus is the Spirit, why would he have to leave in order to send himself?
3. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God, why didn’t the Jews know that? Their great prayer was, “Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is one God!”
There are two things to look at here: Why didn’t the Jews know of the Trinity, and where is there a Triune God in the Old Testament?
Jesus did not stand in the manger and announce his divinity, and neither did God stand on Mount Sinai and give Moses a theological exposition of the three distinct Persons who are one in being and nature, existing consubstantially and eternally. The Lord is like a good teacher who reveals his truth by slowly planting seeds and then evoking the truth of the conclusions from his students. His revelation to the Jews was a gradual process, and so there is no problem if he wished to reveal more of himself to humanity as time progressed. As Jesus said, “I have many things yet to say to you, but you are not able to bear them at present” (John 16:12).
Similarly, Jesus revealed that his kingdom would be like a mustard seed that grows into the largest of shrubs. There is an organic development in understanding that takes place over time. This is not a mutation or contradiction of a prior understanding, but the natural flowering of truth.
Where are the Old Testament seeds of the Trinity? In Deuteronomy 6:4, one finds the Shema, the Jewish expression of monotheism: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.” There are two words in Hebrew for one. Yachid means only one. Echod means a compound unity or a united one—as in Genesis: “evening and morning . . . one day” or “husband and wife . . . one flesh.” This second word, echod, which describes a unity of beings, is the one used to speak of God, who is not by essence a solitude, but a unity of three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Other implicit references to the Trinity in the Old Testament include Gen. 1:26, which reads, “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness.” Since God was alone at the time of creation (Isa. 44:24, Neh. 9:6) with no other gods, this expression of plurality must refer to God himself. At the Tower of Babel God says, “Let us go down,” yet no one else comes down with him (Gen. 11:7).
Still, the Jews did not have an understanding of the Trinity. It was only in Christ that God the Father revealed he had a Son, and that this Son was to send the Spirit. Monotheism was unheard of at the time of ancient Israel, and if Yahweh tried to announce that he was one God in three Persons, it would have seemed to be tritheism (worshiping three gods) to the polytheistic people of the day. God waited for the Christian era to reveal his true nature.
continued...
Perhaps the most common objection to the Trinity is that the numbers don’t seem to add up. Those who don’t accept the idea of a Trinity are usually under the impression that Catholics are content to say that the difficulty can be resolved by taking refuge in the “God is a mystery” argument.
Believing in a mystery does not mean believing in something that is unreasonable or illogical but rather in something you do not have the capacity to ever know completely—such as God. It isn’t something you can’t know anything about; it is something you can’t know everything about.
You’ll still need to demonstrate that the idea of three Persons and one God is not illogical. To begin, explain the difference between being and person. Beinganswers the question “What?” and person answers the question “Who?” For example, pointing to my mother, the question “What is she?” is answered with, “A human being.” The question of “Who is she?” is answered with, “Janie.”
All persons are beings, but not all beings are persons. For example, you are one being and one person. But a dog is one being and zero persons. With regard to the Trinity, there is one being, which is God, yet there are there Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is not illogical. If one were to say that there is one God and three Gods, or one Person and three Persons—that would be illogical. But one Being and three Persons is not a contradiction.
2. Some people say that Trinity was one divine Person using three different modes. Is that sort of what Catholics teach?
This is an ancient heresy that has resurfaced in recent years in the Oneness Pentecostal denomination, so you’ll need to be on the lookout for it in your discussions. Originally, this idea was known as modalism, sabellianism, or patripassianism. The Church rejected the concept, since Scripture is clear in demonstrating that the three Persons of the Trinity are distinct. For example, when Jesus prayed to the Father in the Garden of Gethsemane, it is clear that he was not talking to himself. When Jesus told the apostles that he was leaving them to go to the Father in order to send the Holy Spirit, it becomes very confusing if there was only one person playing three roles. If Jesus was the Father, why would he have to go somewhere to be with himself, and if Jesus is the Spirit, why would he have to leave in order to send himself?
3. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God, why didn’t the Jews know that? Their great prayer was, “Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is one God!”
There are two things to look at here: Why didn’t the Jews know of the Trinity, and where is there a Triune God in the Old Testament?
Jesus did not stand in the manger and announce his divinity, and neither did God stand on Mount Sinai and give Moses a theological exposition of the three distinct Persons who are one in being and nature, existing consubstantially and eternally. The Lord is like a good teacher who reveals his truth by slowly planting seeds and then evoking the truth of the conclusions from his students. His revelation to the Jews was a gradual process, and so there is no problem if he wished to reveal more of himself to humanity as time progressed. As Jesus said, “I have many things yet to say to you, but you are not able to bear them at present” (John 16:12).
Similarly, Jesus revealed that his kingdom would be like a mustard seed that grows into the largest of shrubs. There is an organic development in understanding that takes place over time. This is not a mutation or contradiction of a prior understanding, but the natural flowering of truth.
Where are the Old Testament seeds of the Trinity? In Deuteronomy 6:4, one finds the Shema, the Jewish expression of monotheism: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.” There are two words in Hebrew for one. Yachid means only one. Echod means a compound unity or a united one—as in Genesis: “evening and morning . . . one day” or “husband and wife . . . one flesh.” This second word, echod, which describes a unity of beings, is the one used to speak of God, who is not by essence a solitude, but a unity of three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Other implicit references to the Trinity in the Old Testament include Gen. 1:26, which reads, “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness.” Since God was alone at the time of creation (Isa. 44:24, Neh. 9:6) with no other gods, this expression of plurality must refer to God himself. At the Tower of Babel God says, “Let us go down,” yet no one else comes down with him (Gen. 11:7).
Still, the Jews did not have an understanding of the Trinity. It was only in Christ that God the Father revealed he had a Son, and that this Son was to send the Spirit. Monotheism was unheard of at the time of ancient Israel, and if Yahweh tried to announce that he was one God in three Persons, it would have seemed to be tritheism (worshiping three gods) to the polytheistic people of the day. God waited for the Christian era to reveal his true nature.
continued...
It's not a circular argument.
Being is nature, essence -what is
Person is who is.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
4. I have no problem believing in God the Father, but where does Jesus claim to be God?
Who created the world, forgives sins, gives eternal life, answers prayers, and is worthy of worship? Few would argue that anyone but God is capable of these things. But the Bible teaches that Jesus does them all (Heb. 1:10; Matt: 9:6; John 10:28; John 14:13; Rev. 5:13–14, respectively).
In John 8:58, Jesus takes this sacred name of God (cf. Ex. 3:14), and applies it to himself: “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.” Only God may use this title of himself without b.aspheming (Ex. 20:7, Deut. 5:11), and the punishment for misusing his name is death by stoning (Lev. 24:16). Thus Jesus’ good Jewish audience immediately recognized the sacred name, and as a result they picked up stones to kill him when he applied that name to himself (John 8:59).
John 1:1 reads, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (emphasis added). John begins his Gospel by proclaiming the divinity of Christ. Aquinas noted in his Sermon-Conferences on the Apostles Creed that John 1:1 refutes three major Christological heresies in one swipe.
5. What evidence is there that the Holy Spirit is equal to God?
Those who deny the Trinity usually do not think that the Holy Spirit is a Person, let alone God. For this reason you will probably have to deal with both issues.
Begin with the personhood of the Spirit. In Acts 13:2, the Holy Spirit says, “Set Barnabas and Saul apart for me for the work to which I have called them” (emphasis added). This is a clear reference to the Holy Spirit as a personal being, not some kind of impersonal force.
John 16 refers to the Holy Spirit as a “he” ten times in a single chapter. Scripture also reveals that the Holy Spirit can be lied to (Acts 5:3), can speak (Acts 8:29; 10:19, 20; 13:2), hear (John 16:13–15), teach (John 14:26), reprove (John 16:8-11), pray and intercede (Rom. 8:26), love (Rom. 15:30), be grieved (Eph. 4:30), and be blasphemed (Mark 3:29). Only a person is capable of these attributes and abilities, and only God can be blasphemed.
Some argue that since the Holy Spirit is a Spirit, he is not a person. But God is a spirit. Satan is a spirit. Angels and demons are spirits—and all of these are persons. The classic definition of a person is an individual substance of a rational nature. The Holy Spirit is obviously an individual substance, and the above verses confirm that he is of a rational nature.
This should demonstrate sufficiently that the Holy Spirit is a personal being, and so now one must prove that he is God. Any number of biblical passages can be used to support this. Acts 5:1–4 explains that a lie to the Holy Spirit is a lie to God himself. (To see verses where the Holy Spirit is equal to God, compare Isaiah 44:24 and Malachi 2:10 with Job 33:4, and Psalm 104:30. Also worth comparing is Exodus 17:2 with Hebrews 3:9
and Jeremiah 31:33 with Hebrews 10:15–16.)
The Bible contains a number of other passages where the Holy Spirit is on par with God. For example, the Holy Spirit is everlasting (Hebrews 9:14), all knowing (1 Corinthians 2:10) and omnipresent (Psalm 139:7)—attributes that only God has. Only the Catholic understanding of the Trinity can reconcile these passages.
How to Defend the Doctrine of the Trinity | Catholic Answers
Who created the world, forgives sins, gives eternal life, answers prayers, and is worthy of worship? Few would argue that anyone but God is capable of these things. But the Bible teaches that Jesus does them all (Heb. 1:10; Matt: 9:6; John 10:28; John 14:13; Rev. 5:13–14, respectively).
In John 8:58, Jesus takes this sacred name of God (cf. Ex. 3:14), and applies it to himself: “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.” Only God may use this title of himself without b.aspheming (Ex. 20:7, Deut. 5:11), and the punishment for misusing his name is death by stoning (Lev. 24:16). Thus Jesus’ good Jewish audience immediately recognized the sacred name, and as a result they picked up stones to kill him when he applied that name to himself (John 8:59).
John 1:1 reads, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (emphasis added). John begins his Gospel by proclaiming the divinity of Christ. Aquinas noted in his Sermon-Conferences on the Apostles Creed that John 1:1 refutes three major Christological heresies in one swipe.
- By saying, “In the beginning was the Word,” the heresy of Photinus (Jesus was a created being) is destroyed.
- When John says, “and the Word was with God” he refutes the heresy of Sabellius (Jesus was the Father).
- Lastly, when John says that the “Word was God,” the Arian heresy (Jesus was not God) also collapses.
5. What evidence is there that the Holy Spirit is equal to God?
Those who deny the Trinity usually do not think that the Holy Spirit is a Person, let alone God. For this reason you will probably have to deal with both issues.
Begin with the personhood of the Spirit. In Acts 13:2, the Holy Spirit says, “Set Barnabas and Saul apart for me for the work to which I have called them” (emphasis added). This is a clear reference to the Holy Spirit as a personal being, not some kind of impersonal force.
John 16 refers to the Holy Spirit as a “he” ten times in a single chapter. Scripture also reveals that the Holy Spirit can be lied to (Acts 5:3), can speak (Acts 8:29; 10:19, 20; 13:2), hear (John 16:13–15), teach (John 14:26), reprove (John 16:8-11), pray and intercede (Rom. 8:26), love (Rom. 15:30), be grieved (Eph. 4:30), and be blasphemed (Mark 3:29). Only a person is capable of these attributes and abilities, and only God can be blasphemed.
Some argue that since the Holy Spirit is a Spirit, he is not a person. But God is a spirit. Satan is a spirit. Angels and demons are spirits—and all of these are persons. The classic definition of a person is an individual substance of a rational nature. The Holy Spirit is obviously an individual substance, and the above verses confirm that he is of a rational nature.
This should demonstrate sufficiently that the Holy Spirit is a personal being, and so now one must prove that he is God. Any number of biblical passages can be used to support this. Acts 5:1–4 explains that a lie to the Holy Spirit is a lie to God himself. (To see verses where the Holy Spirit is equal to God, compare Isaiah 44:24 and Malachi 2:10 with Job 33:4, and Psalm 104:30. Also worth comparing is Exodus 17:2 with Hebrews 3:9
and Jeremiah 31:33 with Hebrews 10:15–16.)
The Bible contains a number of other passages where the Holy Spirit is on par with God. For example, the Holy Spirit is everlasting (Hebrews 9:14), all knowing (1 Corinthians 2:10) and omnipresent (Psalm 139:7)—attributes that only God has. Only the Catholic understanding of the Trinity can reconcile these passages.
How to Defend the Doctrine of the Trinity | Catholic Answers
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The word Trinity may have been coined in the 2nd century but that does not mean the concept was invented then.
Another opinion unsupported by evidence.
You asked for a definition not an explanation. I gave you that.
You weren't correcting me because you were wrong.
No, you have very little understanding of the actual language or cultural context and hold a traditional Anglo interpretation of things you dont fully grasp.
In short, the Holy Spirit (Hagios Pneumo for the greek 40 &4151) is vital principle, holy breath essence combined (no direct English translation correlation even tho there are direct translations and thats where much of the confusion stems from)- in short, the "HS" is the part of God that dwells in man. So its not a "separate' anything. That's why the HS was not released on Earth until Pentecost because the only way man and God could become one was through Him. So the "holy Spirit" speaking is the "urging" to the person and that person speaking.
This was evidenced partially by the languages spoken at Pentecost.
Now to Theos or Nephelim (Gods by definition)-God is God, Jesus is also God. Scripture also differentiates "God" as "chief' magistrate or God. Jesus also subordinates himself.
So the best that can be said is there is a #1 God with a #2 God as a Son with a piece of God #1 placed in a believer. Hardly a "godhead" as if some committee or council. "Persons" depends on the definition of "person hood".
The Holy Spirit always bears witness to Jesus (no independent thought or will)- Jesus bears witness to the Father. (subordinates His will) Even they themselves do NOT claim any 'equality" to the Father. (Jesus sits on the right hand- not in the lap and there is no chair for the Holy Spirit)
This is what even the peoples of Asian (SE and SW) culturally understand which is why you don't see references to this anywhere but English ( or influenced) literature.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
There are two words in Hebrew for one. Yachid means only one. Echod means a compound unity or a united one—as in Genesis: “evening and morning . . . one day” or “husband and wife . . . one flesh.” This second word, echod, which describes a unity of beings, is the one used to speak of God, who is not by essence a solitude, but a unity of three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
It appears you hold quasi-Christian sect interpretation, and won't admit to which one. Are you a Jehovah's Witness? Iglesia Ni Cristo?, Oneness Pentecostal? The Way International? Your heresies look vaguely familiar.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
That explains why you are so confused.
II. The Holy Spirit is a Person
Luke 12:12 – the Holy Spirit will teach you in that hour what you ought to say. He (the Holy Spirit) teaches the faithful.
John 14:17 – the world neither sees Him or knows Him (“Him” is referring to the Holy Spirit). You know Him for He dwells with you.
John 14:26 – the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all I have said to you.
John 15:26 – the Spirit, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness to me. He = the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a person, not a thing.
John 16:7 – if I do not go, the Counselor will not come to you. But if I go, I (Jesus) will send Him to you.
John 16:7 – this verse also proves the filioque (that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son). The Father isn’t just loving the Son; the Son is loving the Father in return, in the same Spirit of love. Therefore, the Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son.
John 16: 8 – when He (the Holy Spirit) comes, He will convince the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment.
John 16:13-14 – when the Spirit of truth comes He will guide you into all truth. He will speak, He will declare and He will glorify.
Acts 8:29; 10:19-20; 11:12;13:2; Rev. 22:17 – the Holy Spirit speaks to us like a human person.
Acts 15:25,28 – it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us. The Holy Spirit, as a divine person, thinks and makes judgments.
Rom. 8:26 – the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words. It is the Spirit Himself, not itself.
Rom. 8:16 – it is the Spirit Himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God. The Spirit is a person.
Rom. 15:30 – I appeal to you by the Lord Jesus and the love of the Spirit. Only persons, rational beings, can love.
1 Cor. 12:11 – the Holy Spirit apportions His gifts to each one individually as He wills. He is the third person of the Godhead.
“Bear always in mind that this is the rule of faith which I profess; by it I testify that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and so will you know in what sense this is said. Now, observe, my assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that They are distinct from Each Other. This statement is taken in a wrong sense by every uneducated as well as every perversely disposed person, as if it predicated a diversity, in such a sense as to imply a separation among the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit…Happily the Lord Himself employs this expression of the person of the Paraclete, so as to signify not a division or severance, but a disposition (of mutual relations in the Godhead); for He says, ‘I will pray the Father, and He shall send you another Comforter. … even the Spirit of truth,’ thus making the Paraclete distinct from Himself, even as we say that the Son is also distinct from the Father; so that He showed a third degree in the Paraclete, as we believe the second degree is in the Son, by reason of the order observed in the Economy.”
Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 9 (A.D. 213).
This harmonizes with the above scripture quotes that are followed by a brief exegesis.
Do you have anything in common with Christianity in the 2nd century, or just the heretics? If you claim commonality with the 2nd century Church, I'll have to see primary documented evidence. So far, your opinions reflect a theology that's a mere 200 years old.
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I am very familiar with that and your attempt at comparison relative to the subject is non sequitur.
In Genesis it clearly says "us' and Jesus later identifies at the "word' with God and was God (in His own standing). That means they were both there and nobody disputes that.
You create a flowery non statement then pass it off as a legitimate point. You draw conclusions the references you quote simply dont state.
Your sloppiness is showing as is your pseudo scientific knowledge. Sadly, in this day and age thats also very familiar too.
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
per·son
/ˈpərs(ə)n/
noun
- a human being regarded as an individual.
A person is a being that has certain capacities or attributes such as reason, morality, consciousness or self-consciousness, and being a part of a culturally established form of social relations such as kinship, ownership of property, or legal responsibility. Wikipedia
person definition - Google Search
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
Trinitarian definition of the trinity:
3 separate distinct(different) beings(persons) that are all one
See, Mungo? ...
Why? Because it's ridiculous.
3 separate distinct(different) beings(persons) that are all one
See, Mungo? ...
... even YOU don't agree with this!
Why? Because it's ridiculous.
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