Matthew 7:13-14. Is This A Victory For Satan? So Many Are Going To Be Without God's Love FOREVER!

[Episkopos]

If people could only see the difference between survival in salvation...and holiness. Jesus preached holiness. And not everyone can handle holiness...even among believers. It's just too far. But that doesn't mean they will die...it means they can't be the Bride of Christ.

But the banquet will be filled with people both good and bad to witness the marriage of the Lamb.

Mat. 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

NOT the same standard.

 

[logabe]

I've struggled with this for decades, and I'm beginning to see that both perspectives are correct. It's just a matter of being able to see it from both sides.

It doesn't make sense for the sin of Adam to condemn all of humanity, but the sacrifice of Christ only saves a few. It makes human sin more powerful and successful than God's salvation.

However, when we begin to look at the fact that Satan is consumed from within, and reduced to ashes, or that Christ points out that self denial effectively makes him tranparent, one should begin to see what's really going on. It boils down to what is true, and what is false. What is real, and what is nothing but an illusion.

If we identify with the illusion, we tend to separate the world into "us verses them". We think we can take ourselves along with our belongings into the kingdom. If we "decrease that he may increase" we begin to see that as soon as anyone takes that first step into "the Way", our steps disappear from the sand.

The sciences verify this empirical fact. As I have pointed out numerous times on this forum. Our sense of self, or identity is formed quite early on, and is nothing more than an abstract construction of the mind. We, as separate individuals are nothing more than oxymorons.

We indulge in this contradiction. It is a persistent delusion.

Adam's sin that condemns all of the humanity doesn't make any sense if we believe that God is going
to leave most of humanity in a tormenting hell for the rest of eternity. Sounds like the devil won to me.
But that isn't the case at all. Romans 5:19 says,

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The question is, how many were made sinners? I think Paul said, all have sinned and come short of his
glory (Romans 3:23). So the next question would have to be how many do you think Jesus will make
righteous? Be careful!



What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[shnarkle]

'For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach,
because we trust in the living God,
Who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.'
(1Timothy 4:10)

Hello @shnarkle,

It is a long time since we had opportunity to talk on a thread. Yet I fear this is way over my head.

Yes, fear can be a potent deterrent to understanding.

'Who will have all men to be saved,
and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.'
1 Timothy 2:4

The thing to note here is exactly what the truth is, which is that God's salvation comes through self sacrifice. Christ is contingent between God and humanity through self sacrifice. Christ enters into creation, but can never be what he enters into. His identity is completely and exclusively in, with, and through God.

My testimony is that we are all reflections of God through Christ's sacrifice. It is only when our own self image is sacrificed that Christ can be seen, and it is accomplished in, with, and through Christ.

'Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.'
(1 Timothy 2:6)

* God provided the means of salvation by the hands of Noah, before His judgement fell in the form of a flood: and Noah that preacher of righteousness preached to the people during that period, but it was only he and his family who were saved from among the population at that time.(Genesis 6-8; Ezekiel 14:14-20; Hebrews 11:7; 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 2:5).

There's God's way, and there are man's evil ways. Noah did it God's way which allows one to float upon His spirit while everyone else drowns in their sin.

The Way is wide enough for an infinitely loving God, but far too narrow to accommodate the gargantuan ego of a single oxymoron. In other words, there is no such thing as a separate individual. The word "individual" comes from the word "indivisible". What is indivisible cannot be divided. God is One, and we are all one in, with, and through Christ, but we must let go our our sense of being a separate individual.

I must decrease, and Christ must increase.

 

[logabe]

'For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach,
because we trust in the living God,
Who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.'
(1Timothy 4:10)

Hello @shnarkle,

It is a long time since we had opportunity to talk on a thread. Yet I fear this is way over my head.

'Who will have all men to be saved,
and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.'
1 Timothy 2:4

'Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.'
(1 Timothy 2:6)

* God provided the means of salvation by the hands of Noah, before His judgement fell in the form of a flood: and Noah that preacher of righteousness preached to the people during that period, but it was only he and his family who were saved from among the population at that time.(Genesis 6-8; Ezekiel 14:14-20; Hebrews 11:7; 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 2:5).

* God has provided the means of salvation today, by the sacrificial offering of Christ Jesus, His only begotten Son: and the Word of Salvation has, and is being preached; it is open to all men to receive it, but only those who believe will do so.

'For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God,
it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.'
(1 Corinthians 1:21)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

What about the people that have never heard the word of God in their life time. A loving God
would actually throw them away for eternity? Come on, you don't believe that.

1st Corinthians 15:22 says,

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[shnarkle]

The question is, how many were made sinners?

No. This is not the question. All were made sinners through Adam's sin. We all sin in the exact same way Adam did. We're all hopelessly lost in our own sense of separation from God. Deep down we all know we're damned, and want nothing to do with that flaming sword that is preventing us from returning to Paradise. We want to go back, but we simply can't.

We have to look to Christ to see the way back, and it is explicitly through self denial/self sacrifice. Our separate sense of identity is a persistent delusion, and must be abandoned. Our separate identities cannot go beyond that flaming sword. They must all be hacked to pieces, then we will see the love of God reflected in, with, and through Christ's self sacrifice as it annihilates our sense of separation which are entombed within our own separate identities.

Just as Mark asks his readers to peer into Christ's empty tomb, I would suggest looking at the fact that these identities are just as empty. They are literally nothing more than abstract constructions of the mind. Look at them. There is literally nothing there. There is only Christ.

 

[charity]

What about the people that have never heard the word of God in their life time. A loving God
would actually throw them away for eternity? Come on, you don't believe that.

1st Corinthians 15:22 says,

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Hello Logabe,

Romans chapter 2 is the chapter to read concerning this, for when God judges the secrets of men's hearts the fact that they have never heard, will be taken into consideration. He will be just.

What a God! Yes indeed! What a Plan! There is no better!

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[logabe]

Hello Logabe,

Romans chapter 2 is the chapter to read concerning this, for when God judges the secrets of men's hearts the fact that they have never heard, will be taken into consideration. He will be just.

What a God! Yes indeed! What a Plan! There is no better!

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

I am so glad to here that you believe that God is just. I have talked to a lot of preachers
that don't believe that. They believe that once you breathe your last breath that you will
go to hell for eternity if you didn't confess the Lord Jesus in your lifetime. They use the
scripture in Hebrews 9:27 to confirm God's justice.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the
judgment.

They really don't know the purpose of judgment and they think it means you are going to
hell. Thank God we have a merciful, forgiving, and loving God that will leave the 99 and go
after the one.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[logabe]

No. This is not the question. All were made sinners through Adam's sin. We all sin in the exact same way Adam did. We're all hopelessly lost in our own sense of separation from God. Deep down we all know we're damned, and want nothing to do with that flaming sword that is preventing us from returning to Paradise. We want to go back, but we simply can't.

We have to look to Christ to see the way back, and it is explicitly through self denial/self sacrifice. Our separate sense of identity is a persistent delusion, and must be abandoned. Our separate identities cannot go beyond that flaming sword. They must all be hacked to pieces, then we will see the love of God refleced in, with, and through Christ's self sacrifice as it annihilates our sense of separation which are entombed within our own separate identities.

Just as Mark asks his readers to peer into Christ's empty tomb, I would suggest looking at the fact that these identities are just as empty. They are literally nothing more than abstract constructions of the mind. Look at them. There is literally nothing there. There is only Christ.

I really hate you feel that way, but it is the question. You have answered half of the question, but
I'm interested in the 2nd half of the question in Romans 5:19.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by
the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You said Adam's disobedience (the many) condemned all 100% of mankind.

How many will the Last Adam's obedience of one (the many) be?

Logabe

 

[shnarkle]

I really hate you feel that way, but it is the question.

it's a question that has already been answered. Therefore it can be set aside. No one denies the answer to the question.

You have answered half of the question, but
I'm interested in the 2nd half of the question in Romans 5:19.

There was no second half of the question. You claimed that the question was how many have sinned. That's not much of a question. You seem to feel that it's something that needs to be debated when no one is denying that all have sinned. There is no question how many have sinned. That's why I pointed out that it isn't much of a question.

You said Adam's disobedience (the many) condemned all 100% of mankind.

How many will the Last Adam's obedience of one (the many) be?

Logabe

Here again, there is nothing vague or ambiguous in my response to this question. What specifically are you having trouble with? Where specifically is your confusion?

 

[Windmillcharge]

I thought John did add the unbelievers in 1st John 2:2. John said, not only will we as
Christians enjoy the covering of our sins, but one day the whole world will enjoy it also.

Isaiah gave a second witness to John's statement by saying in Isaiah 45:23,

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in
righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee
shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Paul confirmed what Isaiah said in Philippians 2:10-11,

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in
heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Now God doesn't swear much, but when he does there is no doubt that it is going to come
to pass. I guarantee God will do it by himself without any help from man. Just as Paul was
going to kill a bunch of Christians in Damascus, Jesus spoke and he immediately changed
his mind.

He will do this to his enemies also, because he loves them. We need to practice what Jesus
done by loving our enemies enough to tell them the truth about Jesus. That he is a loving
God that will not leave them in the bondage of sin. Romans 8:21 says,

For the creation itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of
corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Every knee will acknowledge Jesus as Lord. That is true, but every knee will not bow in worship and adoration, many will bow in sheer bowl empting terror.

What you and I look forward to as glourious and wonderfull splendour is terrifing to the nonchristian.

You miss the impact of the OT exiles and the returning of the remnant of Israel. Not every Jew would return.
Why have a book of life where only those whose names are in it are saved, if every one is going to be saved.
Why are non christian going to call on the rocks, hills, and mountains to hide them from the terror and wraith of God if they are going to be saved?

 

[logabe]

Every knee will acknowledge Jesus as Lord. That is true, but every knee will not bow in worship and adoration, many will bow in sheer bowl empting terror.

What you and I look forward to as glourious and wonderfull splendour is terrifing to the nonchristian.

You miss the impact of the OT exiles and the returning of the remnant of Israel. Not every Jew would return.
Why have a book of life where only those whose names are in it are saved, if every one is going to be saved.
Why are non christian going to call on the rocks, hills, and mountains to hide them from the terror and wraith of God if they are going to be saved?

What do you mean by being saved? Do you mean being made righteous. Many want be saved, but all
will be made righteous. (Romans 5:19)

Logabe

 

[logabe]

Every knee will acknowledge Jesus as Lord. That is true, but every knee will not bow in worship and adoration, many will bow in sheer bowl empting terror.

What you and I look forward to as glourious and wonderfull splendour is terrifing to the nonchristian.

You miss the impact of the OT exiles and the returning of the remnant of Israel. Not every Jew would return.
Why have a book of life where only those whose names are in it are saved, if every one is going to be saved.
Why are non christian going to call on the rocks, hills, and mountains to hide them from the terror and wraith of God if they are going to be saved?

Could you explain Romans 11:26 for me?

Logabe

 

[logabe]

it's a question that has already been answered. Therefore it can be set aside. No one denies the answer to the question.



There was no second half of the question. You claimed that the question was how many have sinned. That's not much of a question. You seem to feel that it's something that needs to be debated when no one is denying that all have sinned. There is no question how many have sinned. That's why I pointed out that it isn't much of a question.



Here again, there is nothing vague or ambiguous in my response to this question. What specifically are you having trouble with? Where specifically is your confusion?

The second question is how many people will be made righteous by the Last Adam? Let me get specific, is the 1st Adam greater than the Last Adam?

Logabe

 

[shnarkle]

The second question is how many people will be made righteous by the Last Adam? Let me get specific, is the 1st Adam greater than the Last Adam?

Logabe

Again, this seems to be a quite odd and pointless question to ask. What makes you think anyone would consider Adam greater than Christ?

 

[logabe]

Again, this seems to be a quite odd and pointless question to ask. What makes you think anyone would consider Adam greater than Christ?

I see you don't want to answer the question, but you know what I am
talking about.

What a God! What a Plan!
Logabe

 

[Windmillcharge]

Could you explain Romans 11:26 for me?

Logabe

If you don't understand it why post about it.

Always read a verse in context, never just read a verse.

Romans 11 talks about gentiles being grafted in to Israel in place of roots that have been broken off.

That alone should make you think.
How can parts of Israel be broken off if everyone is going to be saved?

Why does Paul talk about there persisting in unbelief and if they believe about there being grafted in again.

This is a very simple look at Romans 11 and it is clear you do not understand it.

 

[logabe]

If you don't understand it why post about it.

Always read a verse in context, never just read a verse.

Romans 11 talks about gentiles being grafted in to Israel in place of roots that have been broken off.

That alone should make you think.
How can parts of Israel be broken off if everyone is going to be saved?

Why does Paul talk about there persisting in unbelief and if they believe about there being grafted in again.

This is a very simple look at Romans 11 and it is clear you do not understand it.

Everyone is not going to be reconciled at the same time. For instance, the overcomes will
be raised in the 1st resurrection ( Revelation 20:6) in which, they will live in the next age
for a thousand years. After the thousand years the church & the unbelievers will be raised
on judgment day (John 5:29 and Rev. 20:13).

So this process will take a very long time, because every man or woman that didn't accept
Jesus in their lifetime shall pay for their own sins according to the Law in the Lake of Fire.
But God established the Lake of Fire for the unbelievers for their correction. So
at the end of the ages all will be reconciled by Jesus @ the cross. (Colossians 1:16 & 20)

That's how the covenant God made with Abraham will be accomplished. (Acts 3:25-26)

26 in turning everyone of you from his iniquities.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[Windmillcharge]

every man or woman that didn't accept
Jesus in their lifetime shall pay for their own sins according to the Law in the Lake of Fire.

Which is the second death.

2cor6:2,I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.

Heb9:26-29, But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

It is clear we have to accept Jesus Now and that when we are dead it is too late.
Jesus will come for those who are already his. He will not be coming for those who hate him and have rejected him.

 

[logabe]

Which is the second death.

2cor6:2,I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.

Heb9:26-29, But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

It is clear we have to accept Jesus Now and that when we are dead it is too late.
Jesus will come for those who are already his. He will not be coming for those who hate him and have rejected him.

I believe today is the day of salvation and there will be many that doesn't
heed to the call of God. Just like the Israelites did in the wilderness. God
knew that many people wouldn't heed, so he established the Lake of Fire,
not to torture people, but to bring them into a state of righteousness, by
using the overcomers to teach them the ways of God. These overcomers
are the ones that are waiting for Jesus to come a second time to bring this
righteousness to the earth.

Everyone definitely should heed to their visitation before they die, but many
will have to pay for their sins, because they didn't allow Jesus to pay for them
while living this life of trial & tribulation. We are going threw our judgment
daily so we can be rewarded with a better resurrection. (Hebrews 11:35) We
will receive a crown of righteousness (Rev. 20:6) if we continue to live for God
until the end of this age.

Yes... I believe unbelievers will face judgment after they die, but we have to
understand what judgment is and the purpose of judgment. If judgment starts
@ the house of God (1st Peter 4:17) where shall the sinner and ungodly appear.
This gives us a clue on what judgment is. It can't be that bad if the Christians
have to go through it now. Peter speaks of fiery trials that will try us as though
some strange things has happen to us , but this judgment is to teach us the
right way to live.

Peter said, that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than gold that
perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and
glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ. (1st Peter 1:7)

There's our judgment and there's the purpose for it. Our believing in Jesus Christ
comes threw the trial of our faith. To increase the faith that we have so we can
grow in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Isaiah 26:9 says,

9 for when thy judgments are in the earth, the
inhabitants of the world shall learn righteousness.

The same is true for the unbelievers that go to judgment after they die. They will
have to go through the Lake of Fire for the purpose of increasing their faith so
at the end of their judgment, God will grant them access into the kingdom of God.
(Romans 8:21)

But we can escape this judgment if we accept the judgment of God now. It will be
much better if we believe now, but if not, God still has a plan for his creation and
that is to bring every person into the kingdom of God so that God may be all in all.
(1st Corinthians 15:28)

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[Windmillcharge]

I believe today is the day of salvation and there will be many that doesn't
heed to the call of God. Just like the Israelites did in the wilderness. God
knew that many people wouldn't heed, so he established the Lake of Fire,
not to torture people, but to bring them into a state of righteousness, by
using the overcomers to teach them the ways of God. These overcomers
are the ones that are waiting for Jesus to come a second time to bring this
righteousness to the earth.

Everyone definitely should heed to their visitation before they die, but many
will have to pay for their sins, because they didn't allow Jesus to pay for them
while living this life of trial & tribulation. We are going threw our judgment
daily so we can be rewarded with a better resurrection. (Hebrews 11:35) We
will receive a crown of righteousness (Rev. 20:6) if we continue to live for God
until the end of this age.

Yes... I believe unbelievers will face judgment after they die, but we have to
understand what judgment is and the purpose of judgment. If judgment starts
@ the house of God (1st Peter 4:17) where shall the sinner and ungodly appear.
This gives us a clue on what judgment is. It can't be that bad if the Christians
have to go through it now. Peter speaks of fiery trials that will try us as though
some strange things has happen to us , but this judgment is to teach us the
right way to live.

Peter said, that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than gold that
perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and
glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ. (1st Peter 1:7)

There's our judgment and there's the purpose for it. Our believing in Jesus Christ
comes threw the trial of our faith. To increase the faith that we have so we can
grow in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Isaiah 26:9 says,

9 for when thy judgments are in the earth, the
inhabitants of the world shall learn righteousness.

The same is true for the unbelievers that go to judgment after they die. They will
have to go through the Lake of Fire for the purpose of increasing their faith so
at the end of their judgment, God will grant them access into the kingdom of God.
(Romans 8:21)

But we can escape this judgment if we accept the judgment of God now. It will be
much better if we believe now, but if not, God still has a plan for his creation and
that is to bring every person into the kingdom of God so that God may be all in all.
(1st Corinthians 15:28)

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

You do realise that apart from misrepresenting Gods justice you are also telling people that it does not matter what one believes or how one acts.
That no matter how much one has hated God, God will forgive you even though they still hate him.