"Milk" is Doctrine, "Meat" is.....?

[bbyrd009]

no he is referring to the ability of little ones to trust

well maybe, but also maybe not
i mean if little kids “trust” so much, then why do they put the exact same question to the very next guy they talk to lol; even if they might put it as a statement then

 

[VictoryinJesus]

tbh i doubt you ever did anything truly evil in your life lol, or i bet its been a long time at least

That is not so. I’m seeing a counselor again. It is very grim how much they say change is nearly impossible. I told her as my new counselor we haven’t even gotten to all the things I’ve done before. It is hard to outrun those things or to get away from them because it always seems those things define you always. No matter what those things come up again and again. Or that has been my experience which makes me think of what you used to quote often: who told you your naked? Or something like that…

 

[VictoryinJesus]

those things come up

I don’t know why but that makes me consider
1 Samuel 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

 

[amadeus]

No son of man may die for another’s sins
Christ died for our sins

I think the intent is pretty clear myself, which is why I'm saying something. It sounds to me that you have a certain thing you think, and by rephrasing and blending a couple of passages you can make it sound like the Bible says it too. That doesn't work for me . . .
Much love!

well, i guess i could find the version that uses the exact words No son of man may die for another’s sins, but im not sure that would bring us any closer at this point

Part if not all of it, I believe, comes from here:

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezek 18:4

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezek 18:20

How or why would it or should it be different with Jesus?

Did Jesus die for us?

"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;" I Cor 15:3

What did Jesus bring to or for us?

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly" John 10:10

 

[Ferris Bueller]

For myself, I don't see the fleshy man born of Adam being reformed, I see him replaced.

When the Scripture tell us to "put off the old man", what is it telling us , if the old man has been turned into the new man?

Much love!

What's new are the thoughts and attitudes of the inner man whose mind is now set on the things of the Spirit because he is now in union with the Holy Spirit. And so the inner man is 'new' that way, and he is to determine the path of the outer man. That's called walking according to the Spirit. That's the choice we have to make every day, moment to moment, situation to situation.

 

[Waiting on him]

Hebrews 6:1-3 KJV
[1] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, [2] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [3] And this will we do, if God permit.
All of this is in reference to Levitical laws, Paul is speaking to Jewish men who are considering going back to Judaism. This is why the book is titled Hebrews.

 

[theefaith]

I don’t know why but that makes me consider
1 Samuel 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

reminds me of susana Daniel 13

 

[marks]

Myself an @marks have touched on this a bit in our discussion, particularly the condition of mankind that is prone to division, but we have not fully gotten into what that experience or moment was like when each of us moved from milk to meat....if you know what I am asking?

You wish to continue our dialog?

Are you agreed then that milk is beginner's doctrine, and meat in that passage refers to doctrines concerning the Christian life, as we serve, and obey? Or are you still thinking this is something different?

The answer to your question is in that passage.

The way to move from milk - simpler, beginner's doctrines of salvation and faith - to meat - doctrines of obedience and afflictions and service - "who by reason of use have exercised their senses" - we do the parts we know, and as we come to understand how life is so much different, even in these 'beginner' ways, God takes us further up and further in, as they say.

You appear to attribute this to having some certain experience, a moment in time. Do you know, God works with people in different ways? Do you know, people seem to have a bad habit of misinterpreting their experiences.

You wish to keep me in this discussion. Personally, I find it a meaningful topic, but brutally abused when the Word is twisted and ignored in favor of seeking after some experience, or other panacea aside from the simplicity of faithful trusting.

You must know this about me by now. I look for teachings to be presented clearly in the Bible, and I believe that they are. So I look for the passages of Scripture to say the very same things I teach, and I hold everyone to that same standard. You can agree or disagree with that position, but that IS my position.

What I think must be overcome is doubt and disbelief. Our walk is by faith and not by sight. Our walk is in believing what we are told by God, and not in the experiential perceptions of ourselves.

Someone may have some "watershed" moment of self-discovery, or realization about God, or something like that. But I think for the most part, as we make the right choices based on what we believe from the Bible, this shows us something about the doctrine that we can only learn by doing. Whether we suffer, or whether we are blessed - made happy - we see the outcome of our choices, and if we choose rightly, the outcome of our faith. This experience confirms our faith. But we don't base our faith on experience, we base our faith on the Word of God.

We make these choices big and small, moment by moment, day by day, and day by day, in big ways and in small, God is building us up.

It sounds to me like what you are describing is a paradigm shift based on having an experience. I think someone quoted to me earlier . . . Danger, Will Robinson . . .

Much love!

 

[theefaith]

Hebrews 6:1-3 KJV
[1] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, [2] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [3] And this will we do, if God permit.
All of this is in reference to Levitical laws, Paul is speaking to Jewish men who are considering going back to Judaism. This is why the book is titled Hebrews.

And the book of James only applies to people named James???

All scripture is inspired including the books and chapters deleted by the KJV boys ever read Daniel 13 Susana of great faith?

 

[amadeus]

That is not so. I’m seeing a counselor again. It is very grim how much they say change is nearly impossible. I told her as my new counselor we haven’t even gotten to all the things I’ve done before. It is hard to outrun those things or to get away from them because it always seems those things define you always. No matter what those things come up again and again. Or that has been my experience which makes me think of what you used to quote often: who told you your naked? Or something like that…

Our own carnal history is defined for each of us and we remember it.

When we choose to pursue the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and/or the pride of life, it is usually along that same well beaten pathway that we will choose to walk.

When will this ever stop happening? When we have overcome all of the world of "me" as Jesus did! This is an impossible thing for any man alone.

But... it is impossible things that God will help us with and accomplish in us if we keep on asking of Him and surrendering to Him. Jesus accomplished it before the end of his course as a man of flesh tempted in all points as we are... but He did have advantages over us. He was the Word of God and he never had any sin history.

We, you and I and all the rest of us do have sin histories... This is what needs to be overcome... our habits and ways which lead us continuously back to the old besetting sins again.

Can we break bad habits? Alone if it is a habit leading us to sin, probably not!

Can God help us?
"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

Will God help us?
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened" Matt 7:7-8

Who told us we are naked? Was it some unknown serpent or have we also told ourselves that? What has God provided in the way of a covering now? What does Paul write?

"Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Eph 6:11-12

The whole of armour of God as a protection will not be needed when everyone is an overcomer. That time is not yet.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

oh no it says over and over grace is increased, growing in grace and holiness

But not the grace of justification.
There is more than one expression of God's grace, you know.
The grace of justification (being made righteous) is completed the moment you are born again. And not because of us, but because the Sacrifice is sufficient to do that. That's what the Bible says.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What did Jesus bring to or for us?

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly" John 10:10

“The thief comes not, but to steal, and to kill, and to destroy…” I was reading Joel 2:1-32 this morning. I had never noticed ‘A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.’
Reminds me of Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

“They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. [10] The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: [11] And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?” Doesn’t sound pleasant, but sounds more like ‘For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, [7] Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.’ 2 Timothy 3:6-7

What did Jesus bring to or for us?
Psalm 12:2-5 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak. [3] The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: [4] Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us? [5] For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord ; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

 

[bbyrd009]

That is not so. I’m seeing a counselor again. It is very grim how much they say change is nearly impossible. I told her as my new counselor we haven’t even gotten to all the things I’ve done before. It is hard to outrun those things or to get away from them because it always seems those things define you always. No matter what those things come up again and again. Or that has been my experience which makes me think of what you used to quote often: who told you your naked? Or something like that…

i would say that for some people it can be easy to self-flagellate over old sins that have already been rebounded from, and i would ask why it is hard to outrun them or get away from them? Are others bringing them up, or are they being done again?

No matter what those things come up again and again

via someone mentioning them? after you have confessed and repented? run from those ppl imo, they are satan incarnate, and idc if they are your SO, run.

 

[bbyrd009]

Hebrews 6:1-3 KJV
[1] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, [2] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [3] And this will we do, if God permit.
All of this is in reference to Levitical laws, Paul is speaking to Jewish men who are considering going back to Judaism. This is why the book is titled Hebrews.

kinda weird how those are the same basic doctrines that many OGs endlessly reiterate and argue the imagined finer points of even today then huh?

 

[marks]

well, i guess i could find the version that uses the exact words No son of man may die for another’s sins, but im not sure that would bring us any closer at this point

You seem invested in showing "Jesus didn't die for anyone's sins".

Whether you can "find a version" that uses this wording, maybe, idk, but even still, I don't believe that's the intended message in that passage.

Your son can't die to save you from your sins, but Jesus did. Or don't you believe that?

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

Your son can't die to save you from your sins, but Jesus did. Or don't you believe that?

i believe that No son of man may die for another’s sins whatever version of that one prefers, and also that Christ died for our sins. And in reconciling those i guess i have come to a different definition of “Jesus of Nazareth” than most believers have along the way

 

[marks]

Part if not all of it, I believe, comes from here:

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezek 18:4

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezek 18:20

Yes, I expect you are correct. The soul that sins shall die. And what I believe Jesus did was to provide a way for that to be true for us without destroying us. He could survive death because He is righteous. We survive death because He shares His death with us. We enter new life because He shares His resurrection with us.

I don't see this passage altering any of these things, only reinforcing them. But with one little, suble change, on the face of it, the passage is presented as if it refutes this idea of Jesus dying for us. Even though Paul directly stated, "Christ died for our sins".

Really, so far the only way I can make sense of what @bbyrd009 says is remembering before I was Christian. I was what most would call "New Age". My thinking then was more like, Jesus was just another man, and Christ was something we all could be, kind of like Jonathan Livingston Seagull.

I'm not saying that's what the man thinks, only, that's the only sense I can make of what he says.

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

And the book of James only applies to people named James???

All scripture is inspired including the books and chapters deleted by the KJV boys ever read Daniel 13 Susana of great faith?

So, the way to perfection for a born of God man//woman is to leave the principals of the doctrine of Christ?

also do you follow all the customs of the law, or just laying on of your hands on the animal sacrifice you bring to offer to God to atone for your sins?

 

[marks]

And so the inner man is 'new' that way, and he is to determine the path of the outer man.

Determine the path of the outer man?

OK . . . I see . . . The outer man is neutral, the body, directed by the inner man. The inner man becomes modified, and begins to give better direction.

Like that?

Where do our remaining evil thoughts and actions come from?

Much love!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You seem invested in showing "Jesus didn't die for anyone's sins".

Whether you can "find a version" that uses this wording, maybe, idk, but even still, I don't believe that's the intended message in that passage.

Your son can't die to save you from your sins, but Jesus did. Or don't you believe that?

Much love!

Only reading along concerning the above. I’ve always heard he bore our stripes so we do not have to bear any stripes. That He bore our chastisement, to remove it so we don’t have to bear it. The message (from my experience) has been: it is a lack of faith if one doesn’t trust in ‘you are healed’ therefore because of the lack of faith that is why they bear stripes and chastisement that He took away for them. It being their refusal to accept He took it away for them, so they don’t bear it? But consider ‘by His stripes you are healed’ could also be if they have done this to the master, what will they do to the children? The children are not above their master?

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

point is, do these passages mean He took away our chastisement by bearing it in His own body, taking part of the same? Hebrews 12:7-11 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? [8] But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. [9] Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? [10] For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. [11] Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.