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Millennialism/Amillennialism

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Poppin, Jan 28, 2014.

  1. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    Below is a very simple explanation of Amillennialism (the belief that there is not a future period of 1,000 years after Jesus Christ returns).. This is just for our consideration and polite discussion.

    After someone else posts, if needed, I will provide just one more simple resource (from the same site - Theopedia) which covers the various forms of Millennialism (the belief that there is a future period of 1,000 years after Jesus Christ returns). There are several variations of Millennialism. They are touched upon below:

    "[Amillennialism] stands in contrast to premillennialism, which states that Christ will return prior to a literal 1000 year earthly reign; and postmillennialism, which states that Christ's return will follow a 1000 year golden age ushered in by the church."

    God Bless you all,
    Poppin
    ---
    Lord help me to be kind, and patient, and open to learning,
    Please show me where I err, and forgive me for it.
    Amen.



    Amillennialism
    Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return. It stands in contrast to premillennialism, which states that Christ will return prior to a literal 1000 year earthly reign; and postmillennialism, which states that Christ's return will follow a 1000 year golden age ushered in by the church.

    Terminology
    Although the term amillennialism is widely used, some prefer the term realized millennialism, saying it describes the position more accurately than the former, which emphasizes what they do not believe about the millennium, rather than what they do believe. ^[1]^

    Overview
    Amillennialism teaches that the thousand year reign of Christ mentioned in Revelation 20:1-6 is symbolic of the current church age, rather than a literal future 1000 year reign. It contends that the period described in Revelation 20 was inaugurated (i.e. began) at Christ's resurrection and will continue until His Second Coming. Amillennialism holds that while Christ's reign during the millennium is spiritual in nature, at the end of the church age Christ will return in final judgment and establish a permanent physical reign. Also taught by amillennialism is that the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 has already occurred, and means that "he might not deceive the nations any longer" (Revelation 20:3) by preventing the spread of the gospel. ^[2]^

    Principles
    There are several principles which, while not entirely unique to amillennialism, combine to form the grounding from which this understanding of eschatology springs.

    The analogy of faith and biblical theology
    The analogy of faith is a Reformation principle for the interpretation of Scripture, which can be expressed as "Scripture interprets Scripture". The fundamental principle of biblical theology is that of progressive revelation, which states that God reveals Himself in increasing measure throughout history, and that His revelation climaxes in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ.

    As a result of these principles, we expect the New Testament to interpret to the Old, all the while showing us God, in Christ, more clearly.

    Two-age theology
    One of the major contributions of Reformed theology to this area of eschatology, and allied areas, has been the application of the two-age framework. This New Testament paradigm looks at Christian experience in terms of the 'now' and the 'not yet'. Perhaps that most eloquent and well-known statement of this principle is the Apostle Paul's words to the Corinthian church, "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face" (1 Corinthians 13:12). An example of the way this framework is applied in the New Testament is in the theme of "new creation". Beloved of New Testament writers, this theme is often referred to in terms indicating that it is both a present reality (2 Corinthians 5:17) and a future hope (Romans 8:20-21); the message of the New Testament is that the new creation is something we taste now and will, one day, know fully.

    Covenant theology
    While the covenant theology in its most developed form is associated with the Reformed tradition, Lutheranism and Roman Catholicism both apply aspects of the covenant theology in their own expressions of eschatology, which are also amillennial. This is most clearly seen in the agreement between the three traditions that the church is, in some sense and by some means, the inheritor of the promises in Scripture — in short, that just as Israel was the people of God in the Old Testament, so the church is the people of God in the New Testament. Such a belief, called supersessionism and denigrated as "replacement theology" by its critics, has been the historic belief of the church.^[3]^

    resources: http://www.theopedia.com/Amillennialism
     
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  2. Johnny Appleseed

    Johnny Appleseed Member

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    I like Stern's description on Covenant Theology. I look at all the passages of the NT where it refers to Israel, and there is only the possibility of one that may not refer to Israel. The rest refer to Israel due to their prefixes.
    In my Spiritual Israel folder, I have 13 articles covering Covenant Theology.
     
  3. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    Johnny Appleseed,
    The Israel of God according to Paul are, all believers in Jesus Christ the Messiah, either the Promise of the redeemer before the cross, or we who look back at His Cross.
    There is One Covenant; One people of God (jew & gentile), Believing Israel expanded, meaning the Church/Ekklesia.
    Unbelievers and antichrists are not God's people. But through the Gospel they can be grafted in! Amen.

    Galatians 6
    Not Circumcision but the New Creation
    11See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand!
    12Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh. 14May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whicha the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.
    17From now on, let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus.
    18The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers and sisters. Amen


    Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule (May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.)—to the Israel of God.

    Paul was not pronouncing a benediction on antichrists.

    1 John 2:22
    Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.

    -------------

    In any case, is it possible to discuss the varying views of Millennialism?
    We could explain why Amillennialism is not correct, if you can :)

    Thank You.
    Poppin
     
  4. ENOCH2010

    ENOCH2010 New Member

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    You say satan is bound so he can't deceive the nations now. Are you saying all the muslim nations aren't deceived in believing that Jesus is not the Son of God?
     
  5. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    No. Amillennialism says missionaries have doors open for the Gospel that God had not previously opened.
    Muslims convert to Christianity every day, praise God.

    Ephesians 2
    11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision " by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ
     
  6. ENOCH2010

    ENOCH2010 New Member

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    If you think the Islamic nations are going to convert to Christianity you must not watch the news, and for satan to be bound now, there sure are a lot of evil nations in the world.
     
  7. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Poppin.

    Continue the quote:

    Ephesians 2:14-22
    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both (Gentiles and Israel) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16 And that he might reconcile both (Gentiles and Israel) unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (Gentiles), and to them that were nigh (Israel).
    18 For through him we both (Gentiles and Israel) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners (Gentiles), but fellowcitizens with the saints (Israel), and of the household (family) of God;
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah) himself being the chief corner stone (capstone of the angle);
    21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22 In whom ye also (Gentiles) are builded together (i.e. with Israel) for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
    KJV
     
  8. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    Yes, thank you.
    Jew & Gentile reconciled in Christ where there is no difference. This was not the arrangement before the Gospel went First to the Jews, as the promise was to them First.

    However, God had announced the Gospel that God would take people from every kindred tongue and nation to Abraham. It is the faith of Abraham we are looking at, not the Mosaic Covenant, which was exclusively for the people of Israel (and converts or God-fearers).

    After the Gospel message had been proclaimed to the Jews first, according to the promise to Abraham, it then went to the Gentiles. There is one message, one household of God, one Israel of God.

    This message, (we were never told we would not face persecution for the message, we were told we would!) was NOT a universal message until the promise to Israel was fulfilled in every way and the city and the sanctuary were utterly destroyed in 70AD, abolishing the Old Covenant forever. It simply no longer exists. Satan is simply restrained from deceiving the nations until just before the end.

    People say - but look at all the evil in the world. We are not told anywhere there will not be evil - the wheat and tares grow together until the end.

    What we need to see, is how the tiny Jewish sect called Christians at Antioch overturned the whole world with their message and it continues to this day. The Bible does not teach universal salvation of all mankind, even if one does believe in a future 1,000 reign - you still have a giant rebellion at the end of it. We need to see how great the Stone has become and filling the whole earth.

    Please refer to this passage where not only does Jesus declare the Kingdom of God had already come in His Person at the First Advent, He declares that He had bound up the strong man (Satan) and was already plundering his house - saving men.

    Matthew 12
    22Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. 23And all the people were amazed, and said, “Can this be the Son of David?” 24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.” 25Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. 26And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. 28But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. 30Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. 31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

    Two ages. To this day Rabbinic Judaism (which is not Biblical) understands the two ages. They understand that the "this age" Jesus referred to means The Messianic Age (which is NOW - salvation), and that the age to come is eternity. Their problem was they rejected the True Messiah and are still waiting. this is where Millennialism comes from...expecting a "kingdom on earth where Messiah reigns"...but Jesus said that was NOT what His Kingdom was. He is reigning now. From Glory and the age to come is eternity - right after the Judgment.

    Look and see...the Two Ages again:

    Mark 10
    29Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake, 30but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

    So, in reality, not only is there no longer jew or gentile IN CHRIST, as far as God is concerned, there is no longer jew or gentile OUTSIDE of Christ.
    God's purpose has not changed - salvation of whoever He calls to Himself, no matter who they are, based on FAITH (Abraham). The Law was added because of transgressions, and was until John, or more specifically, until faith came, JESUS CHRIST The Savior of the world.

    God Bless you,
    Poppin

    --------

    HISTORY OF MILLENNIALISM

    http://www.newtestamentchurch.org/york/libraryfiles/HISMILL.html
     
  9. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Poppin.

    Do you really think that "to the Jew first and also to the Greek" no longer applies?! Do you really think that Paul said, "Well, I've been to the Jews, now it's time to move on to the Gentiles"? Don't populations continue to grow? What a load of malarky! You've been fed a HUGE lie, and apparently you've bought into it! There is no "AFTER the Gospel message had been proclaimed to the Jews first"!

    The city and the Temple WERE destroyed in 70 A.D. and the children of Isra'el were dispersed among the nations, but never, EVER say that the Old Covenant was "abolished forever!" That is a LIE "STRAIGHT FROM THE PITS OF HELL!!!" Don't you even understand what the "New Covenant" is?!

    Jeremiah 31:31-40
    31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall ALL know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
    35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
    36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
    37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
    38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the Lord from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
    39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
    40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.
    KJV


    Don't MISREAD Hebrews 8:13!

    Hebrews 8:6-13
    6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
    7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
    8 For finding fault with them, he saith, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
    9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
    10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
    11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for ALL shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
    12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."
    13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
    KJV


    Romans 11:25-29
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so ALL Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
    KJV


    Consider, too, what is said about the Law, the Torah:

    Matthew 5:17-20
    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot (Hebrew letter yod [י]) or one tittle (kowts = "thorn," the hook of a letter to distinguish one letter from another, such as a "dalet"[ד] from a "reish" [ﬧ]) shall in no wise pass from the law, till ALL be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    KJV


    Matthew 22:36-40
    36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
    37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    38 This is the first and great commandment.
    39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
    KJV

    Matthew 23:23
    23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
    KJV


    Romans 3:30-31
    30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
    31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
    KJV


    Romans 7:6-16
    6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
    7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
    8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without (outsideof) the law sin was dead.
    9 For I was alive without (outside of) the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
    10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
    11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
    12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
    13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
    14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
    16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it (the law) is good.
    KJV


    There are not just 10 commandments, but 613 commandments in the Torah! Yet, Yeshua` wisely boiled them down to the two:

    Davaariym (Deuteronomy) 6:5
    5 V’aahavtaa eet YHWH Eloheykhaa bkhaal lvaavkhaa uwvkhaal nafshkhaa uwvkhaal m’odekhaa.
    JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH


    And-thou-shalt-love YHWH thy-God with-all thy-heart/core-of-thoughts and-with-all thy-soul/life/being and-with-all thy-vehemence!

    Vayiqraa' (Leviticus) 19:18
    18 … v’aahavtaa lree`akhaa kaamowkhaa.
    JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH


    And-thou-shalt-love to-thy-neighbor/associate like-thyself!

    God bless you, too, but I will end with this prophecy:

    Psalm 89:3-4, 20-37
    3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
    4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
    ...

    20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
    21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
    22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
    23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
    24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
    25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
    26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
    27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
    28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
    29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
    30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
    31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
    32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
    33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness (Hebrew: "checed" = "covenant-keeping") will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
    34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
    35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
    36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
    37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
    KJV
     
  10. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    Hello Retrobyter,
    It is better if we can remain civil and polite to each other - I remind myself of this daily.
    Please understand what you replying to - ask for clarification if need be.

    Do you really think that "to the Jew first and also to the Greek" no longer applies?!

    Pardon me....the Gospel goes to all the world, whether they are Jewish people or Gentile people. there is no difference.
    What do you think that means - Pre-emminence (superiority) to the Jew or - the Gospel was to go them FIRST:

    Matthew 10
    5These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; 6but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    This was Christ`s Mission as well:

    Matthew 15
    23But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us." 24But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"

    Acts 13
    Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

    This does not mean Jews are rejected or exempt from the Gospel, it meas that they are on equal footing with gentiles - lost and hellbound without the Gospel. They are not in Covenant with God.

    Do you really think that Paul said, "Well, I've been to the Jews, now it's time to move on to the Gentiles"?

    Paul did say that`(to the haters); but he was called to minister to kings and jews and gentiles, which he continued to do all his days:

    Acts 9
    But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

    Don't populations continue to grow? What a load of malarky! You've been fed a HUGE lie, and apparently you've bought into it!

    I don`t know what you mean. There are Jews who believe they are in Covenant with God without Christ, but they are not. They need the Gospel. The Old Covenant is abolished. You are not suggesting it can be adhered to without a Temple or sacrifices or a priesthood, are you...I dont know - perhaps you are..in which case you are mistaken.

    Hebrews 8:13
    By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

    And it did. 70AD ended the Old Covenant system forever. There are not 2 Covenants underway - there is ONE - the New in Christ`s Blood.

    There is no "AFTER the Gospel message had been proclaimed to the Jews first"!

    I dont know what you are talking about. The Jews are saved the same way as anyone else - by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, there remains no distinction as far as God is concerned. Jews are jews according to their traditions and their false religion - they are in Covenant with God outside Christ. So there is no difference between any unbelievers.

    You don`t appear to believe that this means what it says:

    Ephesians 2
    13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

    It does not mean that the Old Covenant is in place for Jews until they enter the New. The old is long gone. They have NO Covenant standing with God. Just like lost gentiles.

    As far as evangelism is concerned, we have the same challenges Paul had when evangelizing the Jews - unbelief, and their love of a false and dead religion, and their deluded state which has them convinced they are God`s chosen people while reviling Jesus Christ. Not so.

    I will attempt to address your other concerns following. Let us remember to be civil.
    God Bless you,
    Poppin.

    Jeremiah 31 was fulfilled in the First Century, when God did indeed make a New Covenant with the House of Israel and Judah.
    His Name is Jesus and He died on the Cross as the final sacrifice for their sins.

    If Jeremiah is not fulfilled, you yourself remain in your sins and are not saved.

    It is good to understand the Historical sequence of the books.
    Jeremiah 31 is fulfilled. It`s not waiting somehow for Israelis to decide to accept it...It`s in place and is THE ONLY ground on which men may be made right with God and be in (New) Covenant with Him.

    If you have the popular (Judaized) idea that the New Covenant is simply a Renewed Old Covenant, you have some reckoning to do with the basics of the Christian faith. The New is entirely NEW.

    Hebrews 8
    But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

    Hebrews 12
    23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

    neos
    http://biblehub.com/thayers/3501.htm

    -------

    Dual-covenant theology is a Christian view of the Old Covenant which holds that Jews may simply keep the "Law of Moses", because of the "everlasting covenant" (Genesis 17:13) between Abraham and God expressed in the Hebrew Bible, whereas Gentiles (those not Jews or Jewish proselytes) must convert to Christianity or alternatively accept the Seven Laws of Noah to be assured of a place in the World to Come.
    Many forms of Christianity, especially Conservative Protestants, consider this view to be heresy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-covenant_theology

    Acts 2
    29“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. 34For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,

    “‘The Lord said to my Lord,
    Sit at my right hand,
    35 until I make your enemies your footstool.’

    36Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

    Fulfilled.

    Romans 3
    The Righteousness of God Through Faith
    21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

    27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

    histémi
    http://biblehub.com/thayers/2476.htm

    The Law of Faith does not overthrow the Law of God, rather it upholds, or establishes it in it`s rightful place - As a witness against us all that we have fallen short: It tells us of the Righteousness of God according what is SIN. It shows us the The Law of sin and death - transgressions = damnation.

    Romans 9:30
    What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

    Romans 10:4
    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    telos
    http://biblehub.com/thayers/5056.htm
     
  11. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Poppin.

    Agreed. We should remain civil to each other and other brothers and sisters in the Messiah.

    You would have good arguments IF you had valid arguments. However, they are based on faulty definitions and that is a problem that I feel we need to investigate.

    What do you define as "salvation?"

    What do you define as "gospel?"

    Your interpretations of Matthew 10 and 15 are correct.
    The problem I believe that you have with the Acts 13 quote above is a matter of treating a limited incident as a universalism. Do you understand what I mean?
     
  12. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    Greetings Retrobyter :)
    I look forward to you explaining what is faulty in my understanding. I recall you have said God has given you a unique understanding of prophecies. It will be interesting to compare notes. This is my thread, so in the hopes we eventually are working toward either proving or disproving (scripture interprets scripture) that there is NO future, temporary 1,000 year "kingdom" on this cursed earth, feel free - and I would ask you to carefully take my arguments point by point explaining why they are faulty.

    Salvation:
    Matthew 1:21
    She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

    John 1:29
    The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    Romans 6:23
    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Isaiah 65:17
    "See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

    Revelation 21:1
    Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

    Gospel: (far too many passages to post - I suppose I would want to see what you believe is the Good News)

    1 Corinthians 15
    3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures

    Isaiah 53:12
    Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    Isaiah 61
    The Year of the Lord's Favor
    1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; 2To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn..

    Matthew 11:5
    The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor.

    Luke 4:43
    Jesus Preaches in Judea
    42When day came, Jesus left and went to a secluded place; and the crowds were searching for Him, and came to Him and tried to keep Him from going away from them. 43But He said to them, "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose."

    Mark 1:38
    Jesus replied, "Let us go somewhere else--to the nearby villages--so I can preach there also. That is why I have come."

    Acts 10
    The Gentiles Hear the Good News
    37you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. 38"You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39"We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross

    Romans 3:21
    But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

    Romans 3:22
    This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

    2 Corinthians 5
    20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

    2 Corinthians 3:9
    If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

    ...

    Your interpretations of Matthew 10 and 15 are correct.
    The problem I believe that you have with the Acts 13 quote above is a matter of treating a limited incident as a universalism. Do you understand what I mean?


    (the Acts 13 quote):

    "Acts 13
    Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

    This does not mean Jews are rejected or exempt from the Gospel, it meas that they are on equal footing with gentiles - lost and hellbound without the Gospel. They are not in Covenant with God."


    No I do not. Please explain. The Bible does not teach universalism.
    It does teach the Good News is open to every peoples on earth.

    Retrobyter - Before, or in addition to addressing this post, could you address the questions I put to you previously?

    God Bless you
    Poppin
     
  13. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shabbat shalom, Poppin.

    If you don't mind, I will respond to this post line-by-line, putting my answers in blue for distinction. (Verses are in green and red.) To be blunt, sometimes you forget the most important thing in a question: the question mark! So, thinking of your responses as a series of statements rather than questions has been a little confusing. But I will address the questions you put to me here (and anywhere/everywhere else I can find them), and then I will address your questions/concerns in the last post.

    To address one more thing, you must understand that prophecies are not just ... <BOOM!> ... FULFILLED! They often come in stages, or they are started in the past and continue into the future until completely fulfilled. Read the WHOLE of Jeremiah 31! Not everything there is already fulfilled! There are SOME things - a FEW things - that have been started to be fulfilled, but even THEY are not completely fulfilled, yet! To say that it is ALL already fulfilled is to deny the literalness of those Scriptures, and one would therefore be FORCED to conclude that they were fulfilled in some weird, figurative, "spiritual" (falsely so-called) sense!

    I REALLY hope this makes sense to you. God bless you!
     
  14. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    Hello Retrobyter :)
    Thank you for writing.
    I will not be able to respond to your replies in one post, as they are enbedded in my posts and do not appear when i hit "quote"; so I am copying the parts I believe we disagree on here:
    ----

    You said:

    However, Paul did NOT go to the Jews wherever he went FIRST and then broke off all ties with the Jews and turned wholly to the Gentiles! That was NOT his style! That's what I meant by my statement.

    And that is what I said also. There were many Apostles for the Jews, who continued to preach and disciple only Jews.
    Paul was appointed to go to the Gentiles, just as God had foretold in His Promise to Abraham:

    Galatians 3
    By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
    1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected bya the flesh? 4Did you sufferb so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

    7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

    It was always God's plan to justify and take people for Himself from among the Gentiles.
    I have never said the Jews are discarded or exempt from the Gospel (which we'll look at in a bit, since we appear to have two views on that as a well).

    Hebrews 8:13
    By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

    And it did. 70AD ended the Old Covenant system forever. There are not 2 Covenants underway - there is ONE - the New in Christ`s Blood.

    You said:
    Well, what I meant by that statement was that we are NOT off the hook for going to the Jewish population first! That was what Paul instructed others to do and that is what he did himself. We, too, should be going to the Israeli population first, and THEN go to the Gentiles as well!

    This is absolute nonsense.
    Tell me what is withholding people from taking the Gospel to Jews today at the very same time it goes to gentiles.
    You truly are preaching pre-emminence of Jews in God's sight (to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile does not mean superiority or favoritism - it means that the promise was to go to the Jews first, which it DID historically).
    To suggest that we ought to in some way put aside Gentile (so-called) evangelism in favor of (priority) Jewish evangelism is absurd and antithetical to everything Jesus came to do. - Isay this in love and kindness, having a measure of scorn ONLY for the idea...not for you, as I know you love the Lord.

    We've almost made our churches exclusive, Gentile-only congregations like "good-ol' boy" clubs! Maybe it's not quite the same these days, but it hasn't been that long ago that you had to be a W.A.S.P. (a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) in order to become a member of some churches!

    This is emotional ill-informed rhetoric. Are you blaming the church for the unbelief of people (jew or gentile)?
    One might say it wasn't that long ago one had to be a Roman Catholic.
    There is nothing stopping Jews from becoming Christians. God has not "shelved them". Jews become Christians every day and always have.

    Politics; humans not obeying the commands for impartiality aside, I think you're looking to play a race card where none is possible. Jews are not a race. And you are unable to prove they are. Jews are jews by tribal; familial and religious tradition. There is next to no evidence one is Jewish by race. In fact, there's no evidence at all that Jews today are an unbroken chain of descendants from Jacob. On top of that, Jesus Himself said that mattered not at all. Salvation is by FAITH. No matter who you are.

    Religious Jews must rightly discard Judaism to receive Christ, just as one must discard Islam or any other form of idolatry. I realize becoming a Christian may cost a Jewish person everything - their community, family and friends. But is this new? Our apostles endured the same. And so it is with many Gentiles - they are despised and rejected by their communities and families quite often when they turn to the Lord.

    Second, that is a POOR interpretation of Hebrews 8:13. The Old Covenant was NOT discarded; it was superseded! Don't you understand that the Old Covenant is EMBEDDED WITHIN the New Covenant? It didn't "go away"; it was ENHANCED, STREAMLINED, and IMPROVED in the New!

    Hebrews 8:13
    By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

    That is what it says.
    The Old Covenant (Sinai) is completely gone. It was indeed superceded by Christ, but is utterly abolished as a means of being in relationship with God. The New is entirely New.
    You know Hebrew and presumably Greek. Look again. All New. Not a little bit of Moses with Most of Christ. ALL Christ.
    There's not Old Covenant without the means - Temple animal sacrifice and priesthood.

    The Covenant you need to be saying is embedded in the New Covenant, is the Covenant God cut with (for) Abraham. Sinai is obsolete and has been gone for millennia.

    70 A.D. did NOTHING to the Old Covenant! God has NEVER broken faith with Isra'el! He may have shelved them TEMPORARILY as He works with the Goyim,

    This is nonsense. 70AD was proof that the very last scintilla of the old Covenant was gone forever. How is it you deny that God Himself said the Law (Sinai) was added UNTIL The Promised Seed came? :) I think we do (heretical) damage to the jewish people by suggesting they are in Covenant with God in any way outside Christ. This is simply false.

    God doesn't need to "shelve" the Jews while He works with gentiles.
    Can He not do 2 things at once?
    This dispensational teaching is false.
    Paul said in his day he himself was PROOF God had not cast away the jewish people. He also said not all of them would be saved. So I'm not sure what you are arguing.

    I never said He broke faith with Israel. I said they have no Covenant (Moses) or mediator through which to approach Him.
    They come through Christ or they don't come at all. This is simple stuff.

    The notion that He has "shelved them temporarily" is not Biblical, and the term Goyim is offensive. I myself am Jewish by geneaology but no longer consider myself a Jew but a Christian. I do not think I need to show you the scriptures which let it be known in Christ there is neither Jew nor gentile - so I find that Christians who continue to make distinctions are going against the Lord.

    Jews and gentiles who identify as such outside Christ only do so for social religious and traditional reasons. There is neither Jew nor Gentile OUTSIDE of Christ either. No distinction lost or saved. Why? There's no Covenant for people not IN THE NEW COVENANT. Jews are not in Covenant with God at all if the reject Jesus. This is Bible 101.

    I realize the Bible uses the term Goyim, but it's un-neccesary to use it here, as (as you know) the Jewish people use it as a term of derision, and we ought not to do so.

    but Romans 11 makes it VERY clear that He is NOT DONE WITH THEM!!! God doesn't change His mind about His promises or His covenants! He is TRUE TO THEM REGARDLESS! That's important to understand because it is crucial to understanding the character of God!

    He is not true to those who revile and reject Christ. If that were true, no one would have perished in 70AD and jews wouldn't even need the Gospel.
    Some have made themselves unfaithful to the only means He has provided, and as He warned, have died in their sins.
    The Gospel and Kingdom are available today to jew and gentile alike - there is no difference. One Way.

    For instance, just because the Law is now, "Love thy neighbor as thyself," don't you think that "Thou shalt not kill" is a part of that? Do you think a murderer should not be prosecuted by our law that is based upon the Ten Commandments? The New Covenant says,

    Jeremiah 31:33-34
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
    KJV


    I have already shown you that the Coming of Christ was the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31. Salvation and the Kingdom remain open to whomsoever will today. Those through history who have rejected it, have died in their sins, and those (jew and/or gentile) who have received it, have eternal life. No Difference.

    We are bound by New Testament Law (wherein all the moral and eternal commands are reiterated and confirmed again and again). We are not under Moses, we are in Christ, or outside Christ. That's all there is.

    Jews who do not yet believe are not somehow preserved within the Old Covenant until they decide to receive Christ. They are lost and will perish in their sins if they reject the Lord. And there is no superiority of jew or over gentile or vice versa.
    If you believe you must put "Goyim" last and go to the Jew first, by all means do so.
    That is not Biblical, though.

    grace peace and mercy to you, I love you very much.
    in Christ Our Lord
    Poppin

    TBC
     
  15. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba New Member

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    Poppin

    You say the 1000 years is actually 2000 years (so far) and Jesus is reigning here with us .... except he is not really here , but invisibly reigning ?

    You make my head hurt

    To make amillenialism work you have to abort and bastardize most of the bible.

    You are not Israel Poppin .... you never have been and never will be

    You do share in some of the promises for Israel but that is it

    You are a gentile Christian who hangs on a branch grafted into Israel

    These things are so utterly plain in the bible .... why distort it ?
     
  16. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    Hello Arnie.

    The term a thousand years is a figurative, symbolic term.
    Jesus is reigning now.
    He may be "invisible"; but is He alive?
    if He is alive, what is He doing?
    Just because you do not "see" Him yet, does that mean He is not alive and reigning?

    I've posted many many passages which say Jesus was born a king; was a king; was raised to God's right hand where he sits on the "throne of David" (which simply means) as King of kings:

    Isaiah 9:6
    For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Acts 2
    29“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God,

    This is unfortunate. Perhaps one day you will regret having said it. But that's okay. Because Millennialism is the error.
    I love you.

    I was born a jew (unbelieving). Does that make me Israel?
    Or does faith in Jesus Christ make me Israel.

    Galatian 6
    12Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh. 14May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whicha the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

    What promises remain for Israel?
    Which promises do I as a Christian share in, but am excluded from?

    I was born a jew.
    Now I am a Christian.
    Should i begin to say I am a jew again and lord something over you, a gentile?
    Do I have something special reserved for me that you (a gentile) do not have?
    Is there any distinction in Jesus Christ?

    Gentiles are grafted into the Covenant Tree family,. Some natural branches (who were in Covenant with God expecting the promise of the Covenant(s) were broken off - why?

    UNBELIEF.

    Did their racial or religious background do them any good?
    Jesus Christ suffered bitterly to break down the barriers of distinction and hostility. Are we trying to rebuild what He tore down?

    Galatians 6:15
    Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.

    Is anyone reconciled to God or favored by Him if they reject Jesus?

    These things you speak of are utterly plain in Dispensationalism.
    They do not exist in the New Testament.

    I love you in Christ Our Lord,
    Poppin

    This I do not understand, since in Christ there is no distinction.
    What Gentile-only?
    This is backlit by racist ideology.
    Christianity is not about race.

    On the one hand you appear to be angry about "gentile-only" churches.
    On the other you are angry that Jews are not pre-emminent in the evangelism.

    Why not: no distinction - in or outside Christ's Body, His church?
    I wonder - are you making promises to israelis (who may or may not be of Jacob) that you ought not?
    The Kingdom is not of this world.
    No Christ the Political Warrior coming. Just Christ the eternal King, to Judge and take His own into eternal righteousness.
    The Israelites that were lost, were lost for believing that (a political and military king)
    Let it not be so for us.
     
  17. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    Wow Retro!
    If there were a competition for the longest post on this forum...you may have taken it out! ^_^ This seems like an interesting topic but I am afraid that I do not have the time to read it all or contribute...my blessing to you though :ph34r:
     
  18. horsecamp

    horsecamp New Member

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    .Before all the modern Christians arrived on the scene A millennialism did not even have a name it simply always was and has been the true Christian faith from the begining

    But now we have Christians flying around in helicopters patrolling the skies if they see Jesus any where around; until they say so

    .Jesus will be in big big trouble .

    Jesus is not just in heaven he is in his sacraments his word and where two or three are gathered to gather in his name, Jesus is there also In fact Jesus who is in you Is greater than he who is in the world... Those that are not A millennial better just Get use to the idea that Jesus is not going to stay locked up in heaven he is ruling the world as he always has. from eternity..IN FACT THERE NEVER WAS A TIME HE WAS NOT IN CHARGE THE PLANETS IN THERE ORBITS EACH TESTFY A BABE IN A MANGER IS THE RULER OF THE UNIVERSE AND ALL THAT IS. FOR EVER AND EVER.AND EVEN BEFORE THERE WAS A FOREVER..HE WAS God
     
    Poppin likes this.
  19. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    Amen Horsecamp.
    I do believe I will be taking a break from forums.
    love Poppin
     
  20. Wormwood

    Wormwood Chaps Staff Member

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    I agree with Angelina. I would love to participate in the discussion, but comments need to be much more concise. Posts that are 20 pages long with multiple extensive quotes are way too time consuming. Try sharing one thought at a time rather than trying to dump the whole pick-up load on us at once.
     
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