Shalom, Wormwood.
Wormwood said:
...
Retro,
I find it difficult to carry on a consistent conversation with you on these matters. There is so much speculation and jumping from text to text that I hardly know where to begin. Let me just say...
1. I find the dragonfly in the middle of the earth broken open by a meteor a incredible stretch. Moreover, to suggest that Revelation really doesn't have that much symbolism is simply untrue. I could take a half an hour and list about 100 clear metaphors from the book, but I don't think it would change much...so heres just a few - churches/lampstands, Jesus multiple horns and eyes, Jesus pictured as a lamb, then a lion, seven spirits of God, a sword from Jesus' mouth, beasts, dragons, Babylon, woman with twelve stars over her head, demons as frogs, etc. These are just a few off the top of my head.
2. I understand that Paul often incorporates phrases from the OT. However, this does not mean that everything in the OT context should automatically be applied to the NT context. Eph. 6 also talks about these images...helmet of salvation, etc. In my mind it is clear Paul is not talking about a siege on Jerusalem in this passage.
3. Yes, salvation does not always mean being "born again." However, it does often mean this. The simple fact is that VERY often the Bible links justification and salvation. I think it is an enormous error to suggest that salvation only relates to "the deliverance of God's people, primarily Israel." I think this ignores a host of clear Scripture teaching in this regard as well as puts an unhealthy emphasis on flesh rather than faith. There is no dividing wall between Jews and Gentiles in Christ. To exalt ones nationality and flesh over the faith is to do erect walls that Christ's death tore down ( a few scriptures showing the link between justification and salvation... Acts 2:38-40; 1 Peter 3:18-22; John 3:17; John 10:9; Acts 4:12; Acts 11:14; Rom. 5:9; Rom. 10:9, etc.)
First, let me just say that I appreciate the trouble you do take to try to understand my point of view. That in itself is refreshing.
1. I won't deny that there are similes and metaphors in Revelation. However, I still stand by my argument that there are several locations in Revelation that should be seen in their normal sense rather than go looking for some "spiritual" sense.
I didn't say that there were "dragonflies in the middle of the earth"; I said there were locusts in a cavern just below the earth's surface. Where it is, who knows? The fact that it is a "bottomless pit" simply means that it's a pit which has a depth that has not yet been sounded. We don't know where this cavern is because, frankly, there's no current entrance into that cavern! It won't have an entrance until the meteorite makes one. The only reason why I said anything about dragonflies was to show the size comparison; it's an analogy. I thought with all the figurative language, you could appreciate a simple ratio of the form "this is to that as that is to this." "Today's dragonfly (3 in.) is to yesterday's dragonfly (2 ft.) as today's locust (2-4 in.) is to Revelation 9's locust (large enough its wings sound like horses running)."
There's no need to speculate about these verses in Revelation 9 being some "figurative language" until one has exhausted the possibility that these could be actual animals. Yochanan called them "locusts"; why can't they be locusts? Why do they have to "represent" anything? Why do some think they have to be demons or helicopters or anything other than "locusts?" Simply because you can't see it?! Why is this so hard for you to accept? You do know that scientists are discovering new species on this earth every day, right?
2. There IS NO New Testament without the Old Testament. The men and women with whom Yeshua` communicated in the first century A.D. only had a Bible consisting of what we now call the "Old Testament" (the
TANAKH, spelled "Tav-Nun-Khaf," abbreviations for "
Torah-Navi`iym-Ketuviym" meaning "Instruction (Law)-Prophets-Writings." Sometimes, they quoted the Master Yeshua`s teachings, but often they quoted from the
TANAKH, particularly Paul. Furthermore, when Paul used a Scripture from the
TANAKH, he quoted it rightly; that is, he didn't use it for a pretext to springboard into something that had nothing to do with what he quoted! He used that Scripture as it was written, in the sense it was written, and in the context in which it was written! Anything else would have been dishonest!
3. I won't deny "that VERY often the Bible links justification and salvation"; however, that's because the justification of the children of Isra'el happens
en masse when Yeshua` returns to rescue them! Still, the basic CONCEPTS are separate and distinct. The justification process is best seen in 2 Corinthians 5:21:
2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
KJV
That is the Great Exchange that makes
justification by God possible. The Messiah became our sin so we could become God's righteousness in the Messiah. Indeed, the words "reconcile," "reconciled," "reconciling," and "reconciliation" preceding this verse within this chapter MEAN AND REFER to "changing places" or "an exchange of places." Therefore, when God looks at us, He no longer sees us as "sinners" but as His own RIGHTEOUSNESS in the Messiah! We become TROPHIES to celebrate the accomplishment of the Messiah at Calvary, in SPITE of our sin!
The
salvation of the children of Isra'el was best historically seen in Exodus 14. I don't know how long it's been, but I would recommend that you read the entire chapter in a single sitting:
Exodus 14:5-18
5 And it was told the king of Egypt that the people fled: and the heart of Pharaoh and of his servants was turned against the people, and they said, Why have we done this, that we have let Israel go from serving us?
6 And he made ready his chariot, and took his people with him:
7 And he took six hundred chosen chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt, and captains over every one of them.
8 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.
9 But the Egyptians pursued after them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, and his horsemen, and his army, and overtook them encamping by the sea, beside Pi-hahiroth, before Baal-zephon.
10 And when Pharaoh drew nigh, the children of Israel lifted up their eyes, and, behold, the Egyptians marched after them; and they were sore afraid: and the children of Israel cried out unto the LORD.
11 And they said unto Moses, Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to carry us forth out of Egypt?
12 Is not this the word that we did tell thee in Egypt, saying, Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it had been better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness.
13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.
14 The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.
15 And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward:
16 But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea.
17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
18 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
KJV
In prophecy, we're told about another such event:
Jeremiah 23:1-8
1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved (RESCUED), and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
KJV
This will be just as amazing a rescue as was the parting of the Red Sea!
Here's a couple of related passages:
Isaiah 9:1-7
1 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.
2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.
3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the 
they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.
4 For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian.
5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
KJV
Zechariah 12:2-10
2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
KJV
And, a couple more:
Obadiah 15-21
15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen (Gentiles): as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.
19 And they of the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and they of the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin shall possess Gilead.
20 And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south.
21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.
KJV
Isaiah 66:1-20
1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.
15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
KJV
So, I say again, when you see the words "save," "saves," "saved," "saving," or "salvation," you will find that the passage is talking about the LORD'S feat of RESCUE! And, because it is so misunderstood, there's a HUGE AMOUNT of Scripture that is about the Rescue that is erroneously thought to be about justification, ESPECIALLY in the New Testament!
