Millennialism/Amillennialism

[Poppin]

Thanks Wormwood. I will keep it in mind when I post again.
Time off is required. I seem to find myself with not much in common with most.
I must consider what this means.
God Bless you all
Poppin

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Angelina and Wormwood.

Wow Retro!
If there were a competition for the longest post on this forum...you may have taken it out! ^_^ This seems like an interesting topic but I am afraid that I do not have the time to read it all or contribute...my blessing to you though h34r:

I agree with Angelina. I would love to participate in the discussion, but comments need to be much more concise. Posts that are 20 pages long with multiple extensive quotes are way too time consuming. Try sharing one thought at a time rather than trying to dump the whole pick-up load on us at once.

Right. Which is why I am writing a book instead on this subject. Sorry about the ridiculously long post. I cut and paste it into a word processor, and it print-previewed out to be 15 pages long. I've inserted my answers within another's post before, but this time, two long-winded writers exasperate the problem. I won't be doing THAT again! Besides, Poppin was having trouble quoting my responses to respond to them.

Again, sorry.

 

[Poppin]

"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.

...

this clears up the Daniel 9 issue, right?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Poppin.

"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.

...

this clears up the Daniel 9 issue, right?

It would IF that was the only covenant involved. It's not. There are TWO covenants in play within Yeshua`s first advent. The Davidic covenant, which was already in place and invoked for His Son when YHWH called Yeshua` His Son at His mikvah (baptism), and then the New Covenant which began with Yeshua`s death, although foreshadowed by the last Seder (the last supper) with His disciples.

The New Covenant superseded the Old Mosaic Covenant, but the Davidic Covenant was still in place and will NEVER be superseded or suspended or rescinded! (It doesn't NEED to be because Yeshua` was and will be the LAST KING of Isra'el, who will reign forever and ever!)

I think, if you will allow me to say, that a good study of the covenants would be wise for you to pursue. Because of my background in Pretribulational Rapturism within the Premillennial, Futuristic view of prophecy, I was introduced to a wonderful book, Things to Come, by J. Dwight Pentecost (Dunham Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, MI, 1958). I don't agree with everything that he proposed and taught, but I DO like the way that he dug into the various covenants in Scripture. In Section Two, he covered the Abrahamic Covenant (Chapter V), the Palestinian Covenant (Chapter VI), the Davidic Covenant (Chapter VII), and the New Covenant (Chapter VIII). He said that the New Covenant was promised to Isra'el and was stated in Jeremiah 31:31-34. Actually, there's more there than just those four verses, but that's certainly a good start. Furthermore, he noted that the New Covenant was also found in Isaiah 24:5 and 61:8-9 as well as Ezekiel 37:21-28. Jeremiah also notes that it is an eternal covenant in Jeremiah 31:36, 40; 32:40; and 50:5.

Regarding the fulfillment of the New Covenant, Pentecost said on pages 119-120,

Amillenarians use the New Testament references to the new covenant to prove that the church is fulfilling the Old Testament promises to Israel. Thus there would be no need for a future earthly millennium inasmuch as the church is the kingdom. Allis is representative when he discusses Hebrew 8:8-12; and says:

The passage speaks of the new covenant. It declares that this new covenant has been already introduced and that by virtue of the fact that it is called "new" it has made the one which it is replacing "old," and that the old is about to vanish away. It would be hard to find a clearer reference to the gospel age in the Old Testament than in these verses in Jeremiah.... (Oswald T. Allis, Prophecy and the church, p. 154.)

In reply to such allegations, it is necessary to observe certain essential facts about the new covenant.

A. The nation with whom the covenant is made. It should be clear from a survey of the passages already cited that this covenant was made with Israel, the physical seed of Abraham according to the flesh, and with them alone. This is made clear for three reasons:

First, it is seen by the fact of the words of establishment of the covenant ... Jeremiah 31:31... . Other passages which support this fact are Isaiah 59:20-21; 61:8-9; Jeremiah 32:37-40; 50:4-5; Ezekiel 16:60-63; 34:25-26; 37:21-28.
Secondly, that the Old Testament teaches that the new covenant is for Israel is also seen by the fact of its very name. ... contrasted with the Mosaic covenant ... the new covenant is made with the same people as the Mosaic ... the Scripture clearly teaches that the Mosaic covenant of the law was made with the nation Israel only. Romans 2:14 ... Romans 6:14 ad Galatians 3:24-25 ... 2 Corinthians 3:7-11 ... Leviticus 26:46 ... Deuteronomy 4:8.
There can be no question as to whom pertains the law. It is for Israel alone, and since this old covenant was made with Israel, the new covenant is made with the same people, no other group or nation being in view.
Thirdly, that the Old Testament teaches that the new covenant is for israel is also seen by the fact that in its establishment the perpetuity of the nation Israel and her restoration to the land is vitally linked with it (Jeremiah 31:35-40) ... .
Thus we conclude that for these three incontrovertible reasons, the very words of the text, the name itself, and the linking with the perpetuity of the nation, the new covenant according to the teaching of the Old Testament is for the people of Israel. (Ryrie, The Basis of the Premillennial Faith, pp. 108-10.)

Furthermore, Pentecost notes these Scripture locations for the Davidic Covenant (words of YHWH in purple):

2 Samuel 7:1-17
1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies;
2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet, See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains.
3 And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the Lord is with thee.
4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,
5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?
6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.
7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?
8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
KJV

Psalm 89:3-4
3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
KJV

Jeremiah 33:22-26
22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
23 Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying,
24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
KJV

Pentecost also said in the chapter on the Davidic Covenant on page 100 and 102,

The seed promise contained in the Abrahamic covenant is now made the center of the Davidic promise. The seed promises in general and the seed line of David, with his kingdom, house, and throne, are amplified. ...

The essential features, eschatologically, of this covenant are implicit in three words found in 2 Samuel 7:16: house, kingdom, throne. Walvoord well defines these terms as used in this covenant. He writes:

What do the major terms of the covenant mean? By David's "house" it can hardly be doubted that reference is made to David's posterity, his physical descendants. It is assured that they will never be slain in toto, nor displaced by another family entirely. The line of David will always be the royal line. By the term "throne" it is clear that no reference is made to a material throne, but rather to the dignity and power which was sovereign and supreme in David as king. The right to rule always belonged to David's seed. By the term "kingdom" there is reference to David's political kingdom over Israel. By the expression "for ever" it is signified that the Davidic authority and Davidic kingdom or rule over Israel shall never be taken from David's posterity. The right to rule will never be transferred to another family, and its arrangement is designed for eternal perpetuity. Whatever its changing form, temporary interruptions, or chastisements, the line of David will always have the right to rule over Israel and will, in fact, exercise this privilege. (John F. Walvoord, "Millennial Series," Bibliotheca Sacra, 110:98-99, April, 1953.)

So, the Davidic covenant was also reinforced with the "son of David," Yeshua`, when YHWH, His Father, confirmed it at His mikvah with the words "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." THIS covenant was confirmed at the BEGINNING of Yeshua`s ministry - His offer of the Kingdom. Therefore, I believe that it is to THIS covenant - the DAVIDIC Covenant - to which Gavri'el was alluding in Daniel 9:27.

 

[Poppin]

Shalom, Poppin.


It would IF that was the only covenant involved. It's not. There are TWO covenants in play within Yeshua`s first advent. The Davidic covenant, which was already in place and invoked for His Son when YHWH called Yeshua` His Son at His mikvah (baptism), and then the New Covenant which began with Yeshua`s death, although foreshadowed by the last Seder (the last supper) with His disciples.

The New Covenant superseded the Old Mosaic Covenant, but the Davidic Covenant was still in place and will NEVER be superseded or suspended or rescinded! (It doesn't NEED to be because Yeshua` was and will be the LAST KING of Isra'el, who will reign forever and ever!)

Hello Retrobyter,.
What Davidic Covenant?
That God promised one of his own line (David's) would take his throne and rule?

Here's the Davidic Covenant - as Fulfilled in and by Christ at His Resurrection:

Acts
22“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23this Jesus,d delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. 25For David says concerning him,

“‘I saw the Lord always before me,
for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
26therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
my flesh also will dwell in hope.
27For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption.
28You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’

29“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. 34For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
35 until I make your enemies your footstool.”’

36Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

...

“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ,

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Poppin.

Hello Retrobyter,.
What Davidic Covenant?
That God promised one of his own line (David's) would take his throne and rule?

Here's the Davidic Covenant - as Fulfilled in and by Christ at His Resurrection:

Acts
22“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23this Jesus,d delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. 25For David says concerning him,

“‘I saw the Lord always before me,
for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
26therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
my flesh also will dwell in hope.
27For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption.
28You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’

29“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. 34For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
35 until I make your enemies your footstool.”’

36Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

...

“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ,

To this I say, SO?! God His Father, YHWH, made Him both Lord (Master) and Christ (Messiah - Anointed to be King). It does NOT say that He made Him KING! Show me ONE PLACE (outside of a prophecy) where Yeshua` is called a King! (And being "born king" is not the same thing as being King! It means "born TO BE king," speaking of a baby's inheritance! Also, tongue-in-cheek doesn't count.)

 

[Poppin]

Shalom, Poppin.


To this I say, SO?! God His Father, YHWH, made Him both Lord (Master) and Christ (Messiah - Anointed to be King). It does NOT say that He made Him KING! Show me ONE PLACE (outside of a prophecy) where Yeshua` is called a King! (And being "born king" is not the same thing as being King! It means "born TO BE king," speaking of a baby's inheritance! Also, tongue-in-cheek doesn't count.)

Jeremiah 12:15
But after I uproot them, I will again have compassion and will bring each of them back to their own inheritance and their own country.

Amos 9:11
"In that day I will restore David's fallen shelter-- I will repair its broken walls and restore its ruins-- and will rebuild it as it used to be

FULFILLED - according to James:

Acts 15
The Jerusalem Council
1But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question. 3So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.a 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. 5But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

6The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them,

“Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

12And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 14Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

16“‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will restore it,
17that the remnantb of mankind may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
says the Lord, who makes these things 18known from of old.’

19Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

...

Matthew 22
41Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, 42saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.” 43He said to them, “How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,

44“‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet”’?

45If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?” 46And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions.

 

[Poppin]

-------

CHILIASM.
Chiliasm, or Millennialism, is that peculiar doctrine which expects an era of temporal bliss on earth, with an earthly kingdom for all believers, Christ being the King, while Satan and all forces of evil are removed from the earth for the time being. All this is supposed to take place before the Day of Judgment and to last for one thousand years according to human reckoning, Hence the name Millennialism, or Chiliasm, from the thousand years spoken of in this chapter.

http://www.kretzmannproject.org/REV/Chiliasm.htm

 

[ENOCH2010]

poppin do people like you who think the Lord is reigning as king now, believe the devil is removed for a time being now ? If so why is there so much evil in the world?

Poppin ?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Poppin.

-------

CHILIASM.
Chiliasm, or Millennialism, is that peculiar doctrine which expects an era of temporal bliss on earth, with an earthly kingdom for all believers, Christ being the King, while Satan and all forces of evil are removed from the earth for the time being. All this is supposed to take place before the Day of Judgment and to last for one thousand years according to human reckoning, Hence the name Millennialism, or Chiliasm, from the thousand years spoken of in this chapter.

http://www.kretzmannproject.org/REV/Chiliasm.htm

To that I say, "So?!" There's nothing wrong with a viewpoint when it matches what the Scriptures teach! I will happily admit to being both a millennialist and a chiliast. (Is that the right word?) However, you should know that I'm not one of those who believes that it will all be "an era of temporal bliss on earth." I believe there WILL be conflict although severely SQUELCHED by the King of kings and Master of masters! Yeshua`, still the Messiah - the Anointed by God to be King - will actually BECOME Isra'el's King during that time period and will gradually become King of Kings - World Emperor - as He subjugates all of His enemies throughout the Millennium. People will still die during that time period and people will still weep during that age. Death is not conquered until the END of the Millennium! Furthermore, tears are not wiped away until AFTER the New Earth has been established.

What you have to do is harmonize 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 with Revelation 20:1-21:8. Furthermore, harmonize into that 2 Peter 3:3-13. And, as with ANY GOOD harmony, be sure to do this in the Greek FIRST; THEN translate the results into English. The three passages MUST agree, or one's viewpoint on prophecy will be severely hampered. Furthermore, one must also be able to harmonize in the parables of our Master, both in Matthew 13, in Matthew 25, and in Luke 19. If one's viewpoint can't do that without corrupting the text, then one should discard his or her viewpoint in favor of one that does.

 

[[email protected]]

If you think the Islamic nations are going to convert to Christianity you must not watch the news, and for satan to be bound now, there sure are a lot of evil nations in the world.

You have identified one of the inconsistencies of the ideology of Amillennialism.

As with most eschatological variations, it has certain logical problems. The same is also true of variants and tangential doctrines of millennialism, which is currently most popular with evangelistic folks. What we are witness to is the impact of popular novelizations and pseudo-Bible study programs promoting a particular version of end times predictions. Everybody wants to be a prophet along with the profit that may accrue. The truth, however, is rather ugly.

Ephesians 6:12 states quite clearly that our war against the host of powers and principalities of the spirit continues. If one believes this teaching to be sound, then one is led to the inescapable conclusion that evil continues to inhabit planet earth.

Testimony of Christians, particularly those engaged in deliverance ministries, leads one to believe that the binding of evil is limited at best. The ultimate end of the power of sin in the world has yet to be seen. Indeed, the Bible itself points to a future series of events that will have this result. Many believe these events have begun to unfold in history. But they are not yet complete.

"When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
- Luke 21:28

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Wormwood]

Retrobyter,

I agree that we must harmonize what Scriptures teach on the Second Coming if our view is to line up with what the Scriptures teach. However, Revelation 20:1-21:8 should be understood in light of its genre. The numbers throughout Revelation are symbolic (7 eyes, 7 horns, 10 horns, 144,000, 7 lampstands, 7 seals, 7 churches, 10,000 x 10,000 angels etc...) So why should we expect anything different with the 1,000 years...especially in reference to binding Satan with a "chain" and throwing him in a "pit/abyss." It seems clear to me that this is symbolic language describing spiritual events. Nothing in this text says anything about conflict being "severely squelched" either. It says that Satan will no longer be able to "deceive the nations" and once he is release he will "deceive the nations" again. The text says nothing about conflict or the lack thereof in the world. Rather, Jesus indicates that the "labor pains" will increase before the end and there will be ongoing "wars and rumors of wars" prior to his return.

I think a text you are also leaving out is 1 Thess. 4. Moreover, we should not overlook the fact that it seems very apparent that Paul was expecting the Second Coming at any moment and that this event would result in immediate resurrection of both the godly and ungodly, bodily transformation as well as the eternal judgment of the wicked in "that day." (cf. 1 thess. 4-5).

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Wormwood.

Retrobyter,

I agree that we must harmonize what Scriptures teach on the Second Coming if our view is to line up with what the Scriptures teach. However, Revelation 20:1-21:8 should be understood in light of its genre. The numbers throughout Revelation are symbolic (7 eyes, 7 horns, 10 horns, 144,000, 7 lampstands, 7 seals, 7 churches, 10,000 x 10,000 angels etc...) So why should we expect anything different with the 1,000 years...especially in reference to binding Satan with a "chain" and throwing him in a "pit/abyss." It seems clear to me that this is symbolic language describing spiritual events. Nothing in this text says anything about conflict being "severely squelched" either. It says that Satan will no longer be able to "deceive the nations" and once he is release he will "deceive the nations" again. The text says nothing about conflict or the lack thereof in the world. Rather, Jesus indicates that the "labor pains" will increase before the end and there will be ongoing "wars and rumors of wars" prior to his return.

I think a text you are also leaving out is 1 Thess. 4. Moreover, we should not overlook the fact that it seems very apparent that Paul was expecting the Second Coming at any moment and that this event would result in immediate resurrection of both the godly and ungodly, bodily transformation as well as the eternal judgment of the wicked in "that day." (cf. 1 thess. 4-5).

No, I'm not forgetting about or leaving out 1 Thessalonians 4. To the contrary, it is a vital link in the scenario for when Yeshua` returns. HOWEVER, it is an ASSUMPTION that the resurrection of the godly and the ungodly happen at the same time. Upon what do you base that assumption?! Actually, they are separated by a thousand years. Follow the TIMING, even if you think the "thousand years" is just a "long time":
Revelation 20:1-15
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. (a) They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (THIS HAS TO BE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE THOUSAND YEARS!)
5 (b) (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. (THIS "FIRST RESURRECTION" HAS TO POINT BACK TO (a), NOT (b), which is parenthetical!) 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth — Gog and Magog — to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
NIV

The first resurrection is that which occurs in Revelation 20:4 at the BEGINNING of the "thousand years!" The "second resurrection in Revelation 20:13, that leads to the Great White Throne Judgment and the resulting Second Death in the Lake of Fire and Sulfur or the Lake of Burning Sulfur, doesn't happen until AFTER the "thousand years!"

The passage in 1 Thessalonians 4 has to do with Yeshua`s Second Coming at the BEGINNING of that 1000-year period.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11
13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (WHERE? HE DOESN'T SAY WE'LL GO TO "HEAVEN.") 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
5:1 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4 But YOU, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise YOU ike a thief. 5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation (RESCUE; DELIVERANCE) through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
NIV

So, can you see the difference between our resurrection at the BEGINNING of the thousand-year period and the resurrection of the unjustified at the END of the thousand-year period? IF there's a time when the justified and the unjustified are raised at the same time, it will be at the END of the thousand-year period. However, just as Yeshua` was not limited to resurrect Lazarus "at the last day" (John 11:23-27), (a thousand-year day [2 Peter 3:8], btw, because the Sun of Righteousness [Malachi 4:2] will not set during that whole period), Yeshua` will not be limited to resurrect people at the end of the thousand-year day, either! HE is the Resurrection and the Life! He can choose to resurrect justified individuals WHENEVER HE CHOOSES during that thousand-year period, not just at the beginning or at the end of that period! Furthermore, we TOO will have that power to resurrect individuals, just as the disciples had that power when they were sent out as His town criers (Matthew 10:8).
Recognizing that there WILL BE a thousand-year period, a "Millennium," is the first step to admitting that there WILL BE conflict during that period. We have at least two such passages that describe conflict: Psalm 2:1-12 and 1 Corinthians 15:20-28. It is also hinted in Yeshua`s second parable of Matthew 13, the parable of the wheat and the weeds (tares):

Matthew 13:28-30
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
KJV

Therefore, there SHALL be conflict during the Millennium, albeit a suppressed conflict. Not all numbers in Revelation or ANY prophetic "genre" need to be "symbolic." Often, it is just the reporter reporting on what he saw or heard, giving an eye-witness, detailed account of what he saw.

Furthermore, there are some things that are said that, frankly, not being a Hebrew speaking person, you wouldn't understand. For instance, the "seven eyes" found in Revelation 5:6 may be reminiscent of the "seven eyes" in Zechariah 3:9, and there, in Hebrew, the word for "eye" is "`ayin," which is the NAME OF THE 16TH LETTER of the Hebrew "alefbet!" Therefore, the "stone with seven eyes" could be a TABLET with seven lines each beginning with the letter "`ayin!" This is not unprecedented, for in Psalm 119, every section has every sentence within that section beginning with one of the letters of the Hebrew "alefbet." Thus, the "seven eyes" of the Lamb could ALSO be about "seven letters!"

Remember: Much of the NT was first written in Hebrew (or Aramaic) before it was later translated into the Greek, of which we have only some remaining copies of the Greek, and none of the Hebrew or Aramaic ... yet. Many of those copies were mindlessly destroyed by the anti-Semitic "Christians" of the fourth century.

 

[Wormwood]

What if the "first resurrection" happens at baptism or when a believer is "born again?" After all, this is when a person "comes to life" and when death no longer has "power over them." I think 1 Thess 4-5 make it clear that the righteous and unrighteous are resurrected on the same "day" which happens to be when Christ is revealed with the trump and the voice of the archangel.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Wormwood.

What if the "first resurrection" happens at baptism or when a believer is "born again?" After all, this is when a person "comes to life" and when death no longer has "power over them." I think 1 Thess 4-5 make it clear that the righteous and unrighteous are resurrected on the same "day" which happens to be when Christ is revealed with the trump and the voice of the archangel.

Really? So, you already have your incorruptible body, eh? No, I've heard a LOT of misuse of the term "resurrection." Even the song "Resurrection" by Nicole Sponberg is such a misuse. You can hear the song and read the lyrics on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnfapqiQyTs

It's a good song, but she's using a figurative meaning to the term "resurrection." The real, LITERAL meaning of the word is to raise one's body from the grave and give it life again!

I suppose that many "sophisticated" Christians these days don't really think that kind of resurrection can happen or will occur, but the Scriptures teach it just the same!

And, 1 Thessalonians 4-5 do NOT teach that both resurrections occur at the same time! (How in the world do you get THAT notion?!) Chapter 5 is NOT talking about the resurrection; it's talking about the RESCUE!

Zechariah 14:1-9
14:1 Look, a day is coming for Adonai
when your plunder, [Yerushalayim], will be divided
right there within you.
2 “For I will gather all the nations
against Yerushalayim for war.
The city will be taken,
the houses will be rifled,
the women will be raped,
and half the city will go into exile;
but the rest of the people
will not be cut off from the city.”
3 Then Adonai will go out
and fight against those nations,
fighting as on a day of battle.
4 On that day his feet will stand
on the Mount of Olives,
which lies to the east of Yerushalayim;
and the Mount of Olives will be split in half
from east to west, to make a huge valley.
Half of the mountain will move toward the north,
and half of it toward the south.
5 You will flee to the valley in the mountains,
for the valley in the mountains will reach to Atzel.
You will flee, just as you fled before the earthquake
in the days of ‘Uziyah king of Y’hudah.
Then Adonai my God will come
to you with all the holy ones.
6 On that day, there will be
neither bright light nor thick darkness;
7 and one day, known to Adonai,
will be neither day nor night,
although by evening there will be light.
8 On that day, fresh water will flow
out from Yerushalayim,
half toward the eastern sea
and half toward the western sea,
both summer and winter.
9 Then Adonai will be king
over the whole world.
On that day Adonai will be the only one,
and his name will be the only name.
CJB

Chapter 5 of 1 Thessalonians is not talking about the resurrection of the unjust for judgment; it's talking about this time when many who are attacking Yerushalayim in Yisra'el (Jerusalem in Isra'el), apparently trying to annihilate the Jews, will be physically killed, as Adonai (YHWH) RESCUES His people!

 

[Wormwood]

Yes, I believe in a literal resurrection. However, Revelation is a book full of symbols and images. Dragons, beasts, locusts with hair and teeth, prostitutes drinking the blood of the saints, etc. I think it is not unreasonable to suggest that this "resurrection" that protects a person from the "second death =hell" is being born again. Even books that are not filled with symbolism view salvation in this manner. (see Rom. 6:4; Eph. 2:6; Col. 3:1; 1 John 3:14).

As far as your interpretation of 1 Thess 4-5, I simply have to disagree. There is nothing there that suggest this is speaking of Jesus rescuing Jerusalem from foreign armies. There is no division from the end of chapter 4 to the discussion in chapter 5. Paul is clearly talking about the return of Jesus and resurrection that these Thessalonians fear they will miss if they die before the Second Coming. Paul then says, "concerning times and seasons we do not need to write you..."
This entire context is about these 1st century Jews being prepared for the Second Coming when God will raise the dead in Christ and will judge those who are "in darkness." I think its a leap to see this otherwise.

 

[John 8:32]

poppin do people like you who think the Lord is reigning as king now, believe the devil is removed for a time being now ? If so why is there so much evil in the world?

Poppin ?

And if Christ is reigning right now, how about HE do something with (Ras)Putin? Or maybe Assad? Seems they are doing their own (their father's John 8:44) will unbridled. This is as good as Christ can do?

 

[Wormwood]

John,

I would invite you to read Matthew 13:24-50 as it relates to the "Kingdom of God." Are you suggesting Jesus is not the King of this kingdom mentioned in these verses? Jesus was "born" a King (Psalm 2; Matt. 2:6; Matt. 28:18; John 18:37) and he still reigns as King in a kingdom that has yet to be sifted. What exactly do you think "Lord Jesus" means?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Wormwood.

Yes, I believe in a literal resurrection. However, Revelation is a book full of symbols and images. Dragons, beasts, locusts with hair and teeth, prostitutes drinking the blood of the saints, etc. I think it is not unreasonable to suggest that this "resurrection" that protects a person from the "second death =hell" is being born again. Even books that are not filled with symbolism view salvation in this manner. (see Rom. 6:4; Eph. 2:6; Col. 3:1; 1 John 3:14).

As far as your interpretation of 1 Thess 4-5, I simply have to disagree. There is nothing there that suggest this is speaking of Jesus rescuing Jerusalem from foreign armies. There is no division from the end of chapter 4 to the discussion in chapter 5. Paul is clearly talking about the return of Jesus and resurrection that these Thessalonians fear they will miss if they die before the Second Coming. Paul then says, "concerning times and seasons we do not need to write you..."
This entire context is about these 1st century Jews being prepared for the Second Coming when God will raise the dead in Christ and will judge those who are "in darkness." I think its a leap to see this otherwise.

That you believe in a literal resurrection is good to hear. However, while there may be some symbolism in Revelation, there's not as much as some would have us believe. As far as the "locusts with hair and teeth," for instance, there is good reason to accept this as a literal identification of these creatures that arise out of the hole in the ground created by the meteorite being described. We have archaeological evidence of dragonflies that lived x number of years ago (we won't get into how long ago right now) with 2-foot wingspans, whereas the dragonflies we have today barely get to a 3-inch wingspan. I don't see these 2-foot-wide dragonflies as "prehistoric" but rather as "antediluvian." That is, creatures that lived in the more lush environment of the earth before the Flood.

I don't see these locusts as "representative" or "symbolic" of anything; I see them as another one of these antediluvian species that was trapped in this cavern underground. At one time herbivorous, they, like the big cats after the Flood, have the need to become carnivores. One absolutely MUST pay attention to how many times the words "like" or "as" are used in this description:

Revelation 9:1-12
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven (the sky) unto the earth (by definition, a meteorite): and to him (it) was given the key (coordinates) of the bottomless pit.
2 And he (it) opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts (arthropods with large hind legs for leaping) upon the earth: and unto them was given power (poison), as the scorpions of the earth have power (poison).
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. (They have the need and instinct to be carnivores, but don't have the "equipment" to become successful carnivores.)
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. (They are immobilized by a nerve toxin.)
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns (Greek: stefanoi = "laurel wreaths") like gold (yellow antennae), and their faces were as the faces of men (the chitin of the front of their heads had bumps and markings looking like men's faces).
8 And they had hair as the hair of women (long and fine hair, but not on the tops of their heads; ALL OVER!), and their teeth (mandibles) were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates (Greek: thoorakas, from which we get our word "thorax"), as it were breastplates of iron (heavy, impregnable chitin); and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions (metasomas), and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
KJV

Although unusual, I see nothing in the text that suggests that these creatures are "symbolic." The name of the king of this species is "Abaddown" in Hebrew and "Apolluon" in Greek. Both words mean "Destruction" (NOT "Destroyer"). They are simply a doomed species. Because they cannot satisfy their need to be carnivorous, they quickly go extinct like the dinosaurs. In five months' time, the king dies, and like the queen ant in a nest or the queen bee in a hive, when the king dies, they all die.

Now, as far as "salvation" goes, you ABSOLUTELY MUST learn to divorce this word from the concept of "being born again!" When it comes to the Scriptures, "salvation" is talking about the "deliverance" or the "rescue" of God's people, primarily Isra'el. When talking about "being born again," the CORRECT terminology is "justification by God." This is an EXTREMELY RESILIENT ERROR that persists in MANY, MANY denominations! It is so ingrained in many "Christians," that, even if they understand the difference, they will easily slip into saying, "I was saved when I was 12 years old," referring to God's action of justifying them! It's like an INSIDIOUS DISEASE because it numbs one's understanding of the prophecies!

Really? "There is nothing there (in 1 Thessalonians 4-5) that suggests this is speaking of Jesus rescuing Jerusalem from foreign armies"?

Have you never read verses 8 and 9 of chapter 5?!
1 Thessalonians 5:4-11
4 But you, brothers, are not in the dark, so that the Day should take you by surprise like a thief; 5 for you are all people who belong to the light, who belong to the day. We don’t belong to the night or to darkness, 6 so let’s not be asleep, like the rest are; on the contrary, let us stay alert and sober. 7 People who sleep, sleep at night; and people who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us stay sober, putting on trust and love as a breastplate and the hope of being delivered as a helmet. (Isaiah 59:17) 9 For God has not intended that we should experience his fury, but that we should gain deliverance through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, 10 who died on our behalf so that whether we are alive or dead, we may live along with him. 11 Therefore, encourage each other, and build each other up — just as you are doing.
CJB

Isaiah 59:15-21
15 Honesty is lacking,
he who leaves evil becomes a target.
Adonai saw it, and it displeased him
that there was no justice.
16 He saw that there was no one,
was amazed that no one interceded.
Therefore his own arm brought him salvation,
and his own righteousness sustained him.
17 He put on righteousness as his breastplate,
salvation as a helmet on his head;
he clothed himself with garments of vengeance
and wrapped himself in a mantle of zeal.
18 He repays according to their deeds —
fury to his foes, reprisal to his enemies;
to the coastlands he will repay their due;
19 in the west they will fear the name of Adonai,
and likewise, in the east, his glory.
For he will come like a pent-up stream,
impelled by the Spirit of Adonai.
20 “Then a Redeemer will come to Tziyon,
to those in Ya‘akov who turn from rebellion.”
So says Adonai.
21 “And as for me,” says Adonai,
“this is my covenant with them:
my Spirit, who rests on you,
and my words which I put in your mouth
will not depart from your mouth
or from the mouth of your children,
or from the mouth of your children’s children,
now or ever,” says Adonai.
CJB

ALWAYS check the verses from the TANAKH (the OT) that were quoted in a passage of the NT! Also, consider this unfulfilled prophecy:
Zechariah 14:1-9
14:1 Look, a day is coming for Adonai
when your plunder, [Yerushalayim], will be divided
right there within you.
2 “For I will gather all the nations
against Yerushalayim for war.
The city will be taken,
the houses will be rifled,
the women will be raped,
and half the city will go into exile;
but the rest of the people
will not be cut off from the city.”
3 Then Adonai will go out
and fight against those nations,
fighting as on a day of battle.
4 On that day his feet will stand
on the Mount of Olives,
which lies to the east of Yerushalayim;
and the Mount of Olives will be split in half
from east to west, to make a huge valley.
Half of the mountain will move toward the north,
and half of it toward the south.
5 You will flee to the valley in the mountains,
for the valley in the mountains will reach to Atzel.
You will flee, just as you fled before the earthquake
in the days of ‘Uziyah king of Y’hudah.
Then Adonai my God will come
to you with all the holy ones.
6 On that day, there will be
neither bright light nor thick darkness;
7 and one day, known to Adonai,
will be neither day nor night,
although by evening there will be light.
8 On that day, fresh water will flow
out from Yerushalayim,
half toward the eastern sea
and half toward the western sea,
both summer and winter.
9 Then Adonai will be king
over the whole world.
On that day Adonai will be the only one,
and his name will be the only name.
CJB

And, who will be those "holy ones" of His? They won't just be the justified from the Gentiles!

John,

I would invite you to read Matthew 13:24-50 as it relates to the "Kingdom of God." Are you suggesting Jesus is not the King of this kingdom mentioned in these verses? Jesus was "born" a King (Psalm 2; Matt. 2:6; Matt. 28:18; John 18:37) and he still reigns as King in a kingdom that has yet to be sifted. What exactly do you think "Lord Jesus" means?

Regarding Matthew 13:24-50, these parables are NOT about the present at all! They are, being about the Kingdom of God, about the Kingdom that the Messiah Yeshua` will establish AFTER He has arrived! Yeshua` will certainly be the King of the Kingdom in these verses; HOWEVER, He is NOT YET KING! And, "Lord Jesus" means "Master Jesus." "Lord" doesn't mean "King" anymore than "Kurios" means "Basileus" or "Adonai" means "Melekh!" Don't forget Yeshua`s parable:

Luke 19:11-28
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
KJV

The Kingdom on earth begins AFTER Yeshua` has returned!

 

[John 8:32]

John,

I would invite you to read Matthew 13:24-50 as it relates to the "Kingdom of God." Are you suggesting Jesus is not the King of this kingdom mentioned in these verses? Jesus was "born" a King (Psalm 2; Matt. 2:6; Matt. 28:18; John 18:37) and he still reigns as King in a kingdom that has yet to be sifted. What exactly do you think "Lord Jesus" means?

Uh, how about this...

Luk 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

If they thought it would immediately appear and they were correct, it would be a non-issue. The following would have never taken place...

Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Pretty obvious here that Christ went to heaven to receive teh Kingdom and then return.

Luk 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

He gave His servants a job, a commission, and told them to do it until He returned.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This occurs during the Millenium. Who does it involve?

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Where?

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

And finally, when?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

At His coming. When does God establish the Kingdom?

Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.