Missing from bible

[iakov]

yes, like i said i get that sorcery, channeling, mediums are forbidden. such things were tightly connected with the canaanite kings who were rebellers of the Lord. they were evil in its purest form IMO. but is that mysticism? many say its about union with the Lord, surrendering yourself to the Lord, fasting, meditating to get deeper understanding. did Jesus not teach these things?

As I wrote to Stanj: (here's your copy)

The meditation methods of the Buddhists are meant to teach the practitioner to exclude from their consciousness all distracting thoughts. In Transcendental Meditation ™, the instructor will give each person a "Mantra" to repeat which is designed to replace all other thought. That "mantra" is the name of one of the 350 million names of (the Hindu concept of ) God and is most likely a demon.

If I meditate upon the name of Jesus, I expel distracting thoughts and draw close to Christ. I do so by repeating the Name as I breathe in a manner pretty much the same as the Buddhists. (Without focusing on the navel.) I can do that all day. I can pray the Name of Jesus with every breath although I have to keep coming back to doing so because I'm easily distracted by shiny objects and the world in general. When I make the effort to do so, repeating His Name becomes habitual and I find myself doing it in my sleep. It brings great peace.

When I neglect to meditate on His Name, the "terrible tempered Mr. Bang" comes back and i am drawn into the ugly things of the world, like Trump and Hillary.

iakov the fool

 

[jaybird]

When I neglect to meditate on His Name, the "terrible tempered Mr. Bang" comes back and i am drawn into the ugly things of the world, like Trump and Hillary.

cant stop laughing, of all the ugliness in the world: war, murder, mass poverty, and all the rest. he picks trump and hillary. lol to funny.

 

[StanJ]

OK! Time out!
This went sideways and it's my fault.
I took offense at your first response and answered unkindly.
I ask your forgiveness.

No problem, I'm used to it. But please do show me what you took offense to so I can make a mental note and try not to do the same thing again. I don't deliberately say things to offend but I know that sometimes my style can be offensive. It's something I do try to work on.

I say that Christianity is a "mystical" religion because, in baptism, we are united with Christ in His death and resurrection. (Ro 6:3-5) It's not a physical union; it's a "mystical" union. It's not as metaphor, it's a reality.
We are also "mystically" made "one flesh" with Christ as the church which is the "bride of Christ." (Eph 5:30-32) It's not a physical union; it's not a metaphor; it's a "mystical" union and it is a reality.
The meditation methods of the Buddhists are meant to teach the practitioner to exclude from their consciousness all distracting thoughts. In Transcendental Meditation (TM), the instructor will give each person a "Mantra" to repeat which is designed to replace all other thought. That "mantra" is the name of one of the 350 million names of (the Hindu concept of ) God and is most likely a demon.
If I meditate upon the name of Jesus, I expel distracting thoughts and draw close to Christ. I do so by repeating the Name as I breathe in a manner pretty much the same as the Buddhists. (Without focusing on the navel.) I can do that all day. I can pray the Name of Jesus with every breath although I have to keep coming back to doing so because I'm easily distracted by shiny objects and the world in general. When I make the effort to do so, repeating His Name becomes habitual and I find myself doing it in my sleep. It brings great peace.

What Paul uses in Romans and Ephesians is metaphorical language not mystical language. To the Christian the supernatural becomes natural. The more we function in the spirit the more we understand the things of the spirit because as the Bible says God is spirit and those that worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth.
All truth is in Jesus which means that it is not in any other religion or practice. The New Testament never tells us to emulate other religions or other practices, it tells us to focus on Jesus and him crucified and to be submissive to the Holy Spirit as he leads us in our daily lives. It's pretty simple and yes sometimes that requires being still and knowing his voice but it does not mean that there is some mystical way of achieving that one this was God. The word mystical and mysticism have had an increased use in our society over the past 200 years. In my opinion it is in direct relationship to the increase in actual mysticism and we have a clear warning in scripture to stay away from that. It may seem to some harmless but that is the Insidious part of how the devil operates in our lives. He makes things look or appear harmless, he comes on as an angel of Light, but in essence or reality the Bible tells us that he is a ravenous and roaring lion roaming around seeking whom he may devour. We must always endeavor to be on guard and use the armor that God has given us to resist the enemy, because only by resisting the enemy will he flee from us. There's nothing new Under the Sun and if the Bible, although at least two thousand years old, one sister Betty issues such as this then there is nothing in innocuous about it, and we should pay attention to the warnings as we should pay attention to any warnings or commands in his written word.
As the Bible already encourages us to meditate on God's word and him there's obviously nothing wrong with that and I myself have meditated on his word and on him many times. We need to ensure we don't confuse meditation with mysticism because it's not the same.

 

[StanJ]

cant stop laughing, of all the ugliness in the world: war, murder, mass poverty, and all the rest. he picks trump and hillary. lol to funny.

I don't want to run off track here but trust me I agree with him when he says Trump is ugly.

 

[Wormwood]

does the Lord not say: gen 9 9
"And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you"
were there not laws connected to that covenant?

i am not belittling the bible, i am belittling the ones that call the stories hyperbole and metaphors.

Most of us agree that the miracles in the Bible were indeed real, not metaphors. The question is, "Should we expect such miracles to become commonplace in daily Christian living." My personal view is, "No." God did not split the Red Sea every year to prove to the Israelites that He was God. The miracles recorded in the Bible span thousands of years and usually speak of transitional times when God was establishing his Word or a Covenant. We do not see the common Israelite going around raising dead people, nor do we see that in the early Church. It seems the Apostles and some others were given miraculous gifts, but even in Acts we do not read of everyday Christians raising the dead or giving sight to the blind. These were specific miracles that were intended to confirm the message and messenger....and were not considered to be normative events. Otherwise, people would not have responded with such awe.

As for some of the texts you referenced, if you want to look at some in particular we can. I dont think any of those teach that every Christian can be or should be a miracle worker. As Christians, we are called to live by faith in the Word of God....not the experiences of supernatural powers and acts.

 

[Wormwood]

This discussion reminds me of JRR Tolkien's theology in The Lord of the Rings:

Hobbits have been living and farming in the four Farthings of the Shire for many hundreds of years. Quite content to ignore and be ignored by the world of the Big Folk — Middle-Earth being, after all, full of strange creatures beyond count. Hobbits must seem of little importance, being neither renowned as great warriors, nor counted among the very wise. But where our hearts truly lie is in peace and quiet, and good tilled earth. For all Hobbits share a love of things that grow."

Of all the kings, warriors and "big folk," it is the simple, unwise, small and peaceful hobbits that are the champions of the story. They end up being the only ones who can resist the temptation of the ring and as Gandalf says, "I have found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love." We all want to be world changers and heroes who raise the dead and take the world's breath away. But I think Tolkien understood his Bible well. God uses the weak, ordinary, and simple to shame the strong, big and wise of this world. Simple acts of faith and love toward Jesus done in corners when no one watches or notices....widows and their mites, small boys with their few loaves and fish...these are the things that God uses to change the world. We must learn to be happy to become nobodies in the world if we want to become somebodies in the Kingdom of God.

 

[iakov]

No problem, I'm used to it. But please do show me what you took offense to so I can make a mental note and try not to do the same thing again. I don't deliberately say things to offend but I know that sometimes my style can be offensive. It's something I do try to work on.


What Paul uses in Romans and Ephesians is metaphorical language not mystical language. To the Christian the supernatural becomes natural. The more we function in the spirit the more we understand the things of the spirit because as the Bible says God is spirit and those that worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth.
All truth is in Jesus which means that it is not in any other religion or practice. The New Testament never tells us to emulate other religions or other practices, it tells us to focus on Jesus and him crucified and to be submissive to the Holy Spirit as he leads us in our daily lives. It's pretty simple and yes sometimes that requires being still and knowing his voice but it does not mean that there is some mystical way of achieving that one this was God. The word mystical and mysticism have had an increased use in our society over the past 200 years. In my opinion it is in direct relationship to the increase in actual mysticism and we have a clear warning in scripture to stay away from that. It may seem to some harmless but that is the Insidious part of how the devil operates in our lives. He makes things look or appear harmless, he comes on as an angel of Light, but in essence or reality the Bible tells us that he is a ravenous and roaring lion roaming around seeking whom he may devour. We must always endeavor to be on guard and use the armor that God has given us to resist the enemy, because only by resisting the enemy will he flee from us. There's nothing new Under the Sun and if the Bible, although at least two thousand years old, one sister Betty issues such as this then there is nothing in innocuous about it, and we should pay attention to the warnings as we should pay attention to any warnings or commands in his written word.
As the Bible already encourages us to meditate on God's word and him there's obviously nothing wrong with that and I myself have meditated on his word and on him many times. We need to ensure we don't confuse meditation with mysticism because it's not the same.

<<please do show me what you took offense to>>
Your opening response was confrontational and dismissive. I, unfortunately, immediately took it to the next level. (down)

<<What Paul uses in Romans and Ephesians is metaphorical language not mystical language.>>
He is describing a reality. We are really joined with Christi in His death and resurrection in baptism and we are really one flesh with Christ as the bride of Christ and we really are His body. Those are not metaphors; they are realities and they are "mystical."

<<To the Christian the supernatural becomes natural. The more we function in the spirit the more we understand the things of the spirit because as the Bible says God is spirit and those that worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth.>>
That sounds like mysticism to me.

<<All truth is in Jesus which means that it is not in any other religion or practice.>>
That's one opinion.

<<The New Testament never tells us to emulate other religions or other practices, it tells us to focus on Jesus and him crucified and to be submissive to the Holy Spirit as he leads us in our daily lives. it tells us to focus on Jesus and him crucified and to be submissive to the Holy Spirit as he leads us in our daily lives. It's pretty simple and yes sometimes that requires being still and knowing his voice but it does not mean that there is some mystical way of achieving that one this was God.>>
It also tells us, "Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." Phl 4:8 (RSV)
Some of those types of things are found outside the NT.

<<The word mystical and mysticism have had an increased use in our society over the past 200 years. In my opinion it is in direct relationship to the increase in actual mysticism and we have a clear warning in scripture to stay away from that. It may seem to some harmless but that is the Insidious part of how the devil operates in our lives.>>
That is a very narrow opinion based on a very narrow definition of mysticism. It completely ignores proper Christian mysticism. I assume that is because you are completely unfamiliar with it. Worshiping "in spirit" is a mystical act.

<<As the Bible already encourages us to meditate on God's word and him there's obviously nothing wrong with that and I myself have meditated on his word and on him many times. We need to ensure we don't confuse meditation with mysticism because it's not the same.>>
No they are not the same. The meditation you describe is an intellectual exercise. Mysticism does not exclude the spiritual aspect of the experience.

iakov the fool



[SIZE=9pt]You have chosen to subject yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. No warrantee is declared or implied. Individual mileage may vary. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Enjoy the rest of your day. [/SIZE]

 

[jaybird]

As I wrote to Stanj: (here's your copy)

The meditation methods of the Buddhists are meant to teach the practitioner to exclude from their consciousness all distracting thoughts. In Transcendental Meditation ™, the instructor will give each person a "Mantra" to repeat which is designed to replace all other thought. That "mantra" is the name of one of the 350 million names of (the Hindu concept of ) God and is most likely a demon.

If I meditate upon the name of Jesus, I expel distracting thoughts and draw close to Christ. I do so by repeating the Name as I breathe in a manner pretty much the same as the Buddhists. (Without focusing on the navel.) I can do that all day. I can pray the Name of Jesus with every breath although I have to keep coming back to doing so because I'm easily distracted by shiny objects and the world in general. When I make the effort to do so, repeating His Name becomes habitual and I find myself doing it in my sleep. It brings great peace.


iakov the fool

what are your thoughts on fasting? fasting is closely connected to eastern beliefs. is the eastern fasting the same as the way Jesus fasted?

 

[StanJ]

<<please do show me what you took offense to>>
Your opening response was confrontational and dismissive. I, unfortunately, immediately took it to the next level. (down)

<<What Paul uses in Romans and Ephesians is metaphorical language not mystical language.>>
He is describing a reality. We are really joined with Christi in His death and resurrection in baptism and we are really one flesh with Christ as the bride of Christ and we really are His body. Those are not metaphors; they are realities and they are "mystical."

<<To the Christian the supernatural becomes natural. The more we function in the spirit the more we understand the things of the spirit because as the Bible says God is spirit and those that worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth.>>
That sounds like mysticism to me.

<<All truth is in Jesus which means that it is not in any other religion or practice.>>
That's one opinion.

<<The New Testament never tells us to emulate other religions or other practices, it tells us to focus on Jesus and him crucified and to be submissive to the Holy Spirit as he leads us in our daily lives. it tells us to focus on Jesus and him crucified and to be submissive to the Holy Spirit as he leads us in our daily lives. It's pretty simple and yes sometimes that requires being still and knowing his voice but it does not mean that there is some mystical way of achieving that one this was God.>>
It also tells us, "Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." Phl 4:8 (RSV)
Some of those types of things are found outside the NT.

<<The word mystical and mysticism have had an increased use in our society over the past 200 years. In my opinion it is in direct relationship to the increase in actual mysticism and we have a clear warning in scripture to stay away from that. It may seem to some harmless but that is the Insidious part of how the devil operates in our lives.>>
That is a very narrow opinion based on a very narrow definition of mysticism. It completely ignores proper Christian mysticism. I assume that is because you are completely unfamiliar with it. Worshiping "in spirit" is a mystical act.

<<As the Bible already encourages us to meditate on God's word and him there's obviously nothing wrong with that and I myself have meditated on his word and on him many times. We need to ensure we don't confuse meditation with mysticism because it's not the same.>>
No they are not the same. The meditation you describe is an intellectual exercise. Mysticism does not exclude the spiritual aspect of the experience.

First, please use the quote feature as it is intended...this method just makes it more difficult to respond to.

I asked you to show me which you haven't done here... you could have quoted the post number.

Yes, in metaphorical language. The reason it's metaphorical is because Paul is talking about spiritual reality and you can't really use physical wording to relate to spirituality, hence the need to use metaphorical language.

That's right Philippians 4:8 does tell us to do that which is why I used it previously. It does not mean that anything to do with mysticism that distracts us from God is good, despite what some people may claim or assert. We are also told to test all spirits.

The problem is that mysticism going back to the time of the New Testament or even further was much more narrow in its connotation. It never referred to the things of God is being Mystic. By the time the 1800 rolls around mysticism related much more to biblical issues than it does today. Today the word has broadened to reflect all forms of mysticism but sadly it does not normally include Christianity in its wake. In my view as the Bible does not use the word mystical in Hebrew or Greek, it should not be used to convey something that is not in the scriptures. As I stated meditation is fine and always has been fine in the Bible but spirituality is not mysticism.

Meditation is not all mental, it involves the spirit and as Christians we are meant to use our spirit in a dominant way when it comes to the things of God and not relate to them in the physical or carnal aspect of our life. As I've already indicated mysticism as it was defined in biblical times was not how it is defined today and in that case we should look at it in terms of how it was defined then and not now. Under these conditions it's not something we should be messing around with, as it has no practical purpose whatsoever today.

 

[KingJ]

cant stop laughing, of all the ugliness in the world: war, murder, mass poverty, and all the rest. he picks trump and hillary. lol to funny.

Agreed

 

[KingJ]

Most of us agree that the miracles in the Bible were indeed real, not metaphors. The question is, "Should we expect such miracles to become commonplace in daily Christian living." My personal view is, "No." God did not split the Red Sea every year to prove to the Israelites that He was God. The miracles recorded in the Bible span thousands of years and usually speak of transitional times when God was establishing his Word or a Covenant. We do not see the common Israelite going around raising dead people, nor do we see that in the early Church. It seems the Apostles and some others were given miraculous gifts, but even in Acts we do not read of everyday Christians raising the dead or giving sight to the blind. These were specific miracles that were intended to confirm the message and messenger....and were not considered to be normative events. Otherwise, people would not have responded with such awe.

As for some of the texts you referenced, if you want to look at some in particular we can. I dont think any of those teach that every Christian can be or should be a miracle worker. As Christians, we are called to live by faith in the Word of God....not the experiences of supernatural powers and acts.

Amen Amen Amen!

 

[iakov]

i never got why mysticism was such a taboo subject. i was taught that it was painting symbols on the ground and channeling spirits. yet i watched a presentation on Christian mysticism the other day and they guy mostly talked about Jesus, monastic living and the way many of the early church fathers understood His teachings. it didnt sound evil, rebellious to our Lord or anything of that nature.

It arises from the false assumptions that (1) all mysticism is occult and (2) that there is no place for it in Christianity.
It seems to offend most those who refuse to recognize the sacramental aspects of Christianity in which the kingdom of God and the works of Christ and the Holy Spirit are made manifest.
If one continually focuses his awareness on Jesus, his experience of life will become mystical.

 

[iakov]

what are your thoughts on fasting? fasting is closely connected to eastern beliefs. is the eastern fasting the same as the way Jesus fasted?

Paul said, "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions." (Rom 6:12 RSV)
WE are in a constant battle between the desires of the flesh to satisfy its passions and the desire of the mind and spirit to please God.
Fasting is a method of taking dominion over our bodies from which the passions arise.
It has also been said that it is very difficult to pray with a full stomach. (It's easy to fall asleep!)

The only explicit description of Jesus fasting is His 40 days in the wilderness during which He ate nothing. Not everyone can do that.

In the Orthodox church, the strict Lenten fast eliminates all meats, fish, dairy, eggs , and alcohol from the diet. That leaves bread, vegetables, water and fruit juice. We also fast at Advent beginning Nov. 15 until Dec. 25 to prepare for the celebration of His birth. We also fast Wednesdays and Fridays all year.

Fasting teaches us that it is God we serve, not our bodies.


iakov the fool




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[iakov]

First, please use the quote feature as it is intended...this method just makes it more difficult to respond to.

I asked you to show me which you haven't done here... you could have quoted the post number.

Yes, in metaphorical language. The reason it's metaphorical is because Paul is talking about spiritual reality and you can't really use physical wording to relate to spirituality, hence the need to use metaphorical language.

That's right Philippians 4:8 does tell us to do that which is why I used it previously. It does not mean that anything to do with mysticism that distracts us from God is good, despite what some people may claim or assert. We are also told to test all spirits.

The problem is that mysticism going back to the time of the New Testament or even further was much more narrow in its connotation. It never referred to the things of God is being Mystic. By the time the 1800 rolls around mysticism related much more to biblical issues than it does today. Today the word has broadened to reflect all forms of mysticism but sadly it does not normally include Christianity in its wake. In my view as the Bible does not use the word mystical in Hebrew or Greek, it should not be used to convey something that is not in the scriptures. As I stated meditation is fine and always has been fine in the Bible but spirituality is not mysticism.

Meditation is not all mental, it involves the spirit and as Christians we are meant to use our spirit in a dominant way when it comes to the things of God and not relate to them in the physical or carnal aspect of our life. As I've already indicated mysticism as it was defined in biblical times was not how it is defined today and in that case we should look at it in terms of how it was defined then and not now. Under these conditions it's not something we should be messing around with, as it has no practical purpose whatsoever today.

I have no idea how the quote feature was "intended" to be used; nor is it obvious to me. I have found that what is intuitive to the coder is not necessarily intuitive to the rest of the world. :huh: Any help would be appreciated. (But I actually like my format because I include exactly the portion off the post to which I am responding and don't make the reader go flipping back and forth to match responses to comments previously made)

When Paul said, "We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.", (Rom 6:4-5 RSV) he seems to me to have spoken very plainly. In baptism we are IN REALITY united with Christ in His death and resurrection. IT is a reality. It is not "as if" we were united to Christ; we really are united to Christ in His death and resurrection. (or we're dead in our sins)

Christian mysticism does not distract us from God; it focuses us on God. I'm not interested in or promoting any "new age" mysticism or anything similar to it. You have imposed that understanding of the word into what I have said with the result of perceiving a distortion of my comments.

And, yes, meditation does involve more than just the intellect, it also involves the body, soul and spirit.

iakov the fool



[SIZE=9pt]You have chosen to subject yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. No warrantee is declared or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your day. [/SIZE]

 

[StanJ]

I have no idea how the quote feature was "intended" to be used; nor is it obvious to me. I have found that what is intuitive to the coder is not necessarily intuitive to the rest of the world. Any help would be appreciated. (But I actually like my format because I include exactly the portion off the post to which I am responding and don't make the reader go flipping back and forth to match responses to comments previously made)

It's better to use the format the way it is intended to be used here. If you want to quote the entire post then you can use the quote button or if you want to quote sections of it use the multi quote button. The following link will give you some info on how to use BB code. Notice how easy my responses are to follow?
https://www.phpbb.com/community/faq.php?mode=bbcode#f2r0

When Paul said, "We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.", (Rom 6:4-5 RSV) he seems to me to have spoken very plainly. In baptism we are IN REALITY united with Christ in His death and resurrection. IT is a reality. It is not "as if" we were united to Christ; we really are united to Christ in His death and resurrection. (or we're dead in our sins)

Yes and that is metaphorical language to identify in actuality what happens spiritually. Unless of course you know of a way to detect what happens without using metaphorical language?

Christian mysticism does not distract us from God; it focuses us on God. I'm not interested in or promoting any "new age" mysticism or anything similar to it. You have imposed that understanding of the word into what I have said with the result of perceiving a distortion of my comments.

I didn't use the term Christian mysticism, those are your words and in my opinion are designed to deflect from the actual issue. I didn't mysticism and in its proper context and connotations it is not something that's needed in Christianity. Just because you add the word Christianity in front of something doesn't make it viable or correct. Why even bother with all the negative connotations involved in mysticism? We are supposed to be separate come out from among the world and that means in every aspect including mysticism. I have an imposed anything on your words I simply Illustrated what the common meaning or connotations of them are and that it doesn't fit into a Biblical lifestyle.

And, yes, meditation does involve more than just the intellect, it also involves the body, soul and spirit.

Exactly, and that is in no way mystical.

 

[StanJ]

Fasting was part of the old Covenant, and as the old Covenant is no longer applicable neither is the fasting part of it. Fasting is also personal it is not meant to invoke any type of special dispensation from God.

In any event the following link should give you some good perspective on this issue
http://www.titusinstitute.com/christianliving/fastingbible.php

 

[jaybird]

It arises from the false assumptions that (1) all mysticism is occult and (2) that there is no place for it in Christianity.
It seems to offend most those who refuse to recognize the sacramental aspects of Christianity in which the kingdom of God and the works of Christ and the Holy Spirit are made manifest.
If one continually focuses his awareness on Jesus, his experience of life will become mystical.

the experience that paul had, this would be a "mystical" experience would it not? i think many of us have had experiences in our lives, maybe not as grand as what happened to paul but none the less they were things that were of a more spiritual nature, our Lords way of directing us one way or another. i have had many and i would not want that aspect of my life removed.

 

[StanJ]

the experience that paul had, this would be a "mystical" experience would it not? i think many of us have had experiences in our lives, maybe not as grand as what happened to paul but none the less they were things that were of a more spiritual nature, our Lords way of directing us one way or another. i have had many and i would not want that aspect of my life removed.

What experience and why do you think it was the mystical one?

 

[OzSpen]

I have no idea how the quote feature was "intended" to be used; nor is it obvious to me. I have found that what is intuitive to the coder is not necessarily intuitive to the rest of the world. :huh: Any help would be appreciated. (But I actually like my format because I include exactly the portion off the post to which I am responding and don't make the reader go flipping back and forth to match responses to comments previously made)

When Paul said, "We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.", (Rom 6:4-5 RSV) he seems to me to have spoken very plainly. In baptism we are IN REALITY united with Christ in His death and resurrection. IT is a reality. It is not "as if" we were united to Christ; we really are united to Christ in His death and resurrection. (or we're dead in our sins)

Christian mysticism does not distract us from God; it focuses us on God. I'm not interested in or promoting any "new age" mysticism or anything similar to it. You have imposed that understanding of the word into what I have said with the result of perceiving a distortion of my comments.

And, yes, meditation does involve more than just the intellect, it also involves the body, soul and spirit.

iakov the fool



You have chosen to subject yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. No warrantee is declared or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your day.

iakov,

The problem with the software on CyB, in the quote facility, as I see it, is that one has to look closely to see where the quote finishes. The line of demarcation for the end of the quote is not as obvious as it should be.

I would suggest to the CyB IT folks that a darker background is needed for the quote so that we can see where it ends. Or, the borders around the quote could be heavier lines.

Also, for me to read clearly, I enlarge the quotation font to 14 after highlighting all of the quote.

As for Rom 6:4-5 (RSV), I'm not convinced it is referring to the dipping in the water so much as baptism into the body of Christ. I see these 2 verses as parallel with 1 Cor 12:13 (NIV), 'For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body--whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink'.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Most of us agree that the miracles in the Bible were indeed real, not metaphors. The question is, "Should we expect such miracles to become commonplace in daily Christian living." My personal view is, "No." God did not split the Red Sea every year to prove to the Israelites that He was God. The miracles recorded in the Bible span thousands of years and usually speak of transitional times when God was establishing his Word or a Covenant. We do not see the common Israelite going around raising dead people, nor do we see that in the early Church. It seems the Apostles and some others were given miraculous gifts, but even in Acts we do not read of everyday Christians raising the dead or giving sight to the blind. These were specific miracles that were intended to confirm the message and messenger....and were not considered to be normative events. Otherwise, people would not have responded with such awe.

As for some of the texts you referenced, if you want to look at some in particular we can. I dont think any of those teach that every Christian can be or should be a miracle worker. As Christians, we are called to live by faith in the Word of God....not the experiences of supernatural powers and acts.

WW,

That's not how Jesus saw it, as he made clear in John 14:12 (ESV): 'Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father'.

What works did Jesus do? His works included miracles, as recorded in the Gospels. Jesus' teaching is that 'whoever believes' in him shall do the works he did and even greater works than these. Why? He was returning to the Father and would no longer be available to do it through an earthly ministry. To whom did he give that ministry? He gave to those who believe in him. That includes you, me, and millions of others throughout the last 2000 years.

I'm not inventing this. I'm following what Jesus stated.

Oz