Misunderstood Concepts--- Atonement

[Eternally Grateful]

It's that ^^^ for sure, and actually more than that. He asks us to give up our own lives and this is the example we see in Jesus. This is
the way' to eternal life. No one can pay this price on your behalf because it's already been paid. This is where the concept gets lost and the purpose for this thread...

You've heard it said, that Jesus paid it all. Yes, Jesus was a manifestation of the atonement.

You know that from your empty way of life inherited from your ancestors you were ransomed—not by perishable things like silver or gold, but by precious blood like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, namely Christ. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was manifested in these last times for your sake. Through him you now trust in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

It is through Jesus, that we have an understanding of salvation and the way back to the Father, the way to our heavenly (spiritual) home.

The lamb, is spiritual, not physical at the beginning. The blood of the lamb was shed, and the 'skin' of the lamb was provided as our covering. If you think of these things in physical terms, you might picture Adam and Eve being given garments of lamb's skin to cover their nakedness and shame, and their punishment as banishment from a physical garden paradise, but this is a mere reflection of the reality above, where 'the man and his wife' were in relationship with God in spirit, communing/walking with Him with His presence, which is spirit. The lamb He sacrificed for them was not physical anymore than they were physical, but it was a spiritual sacrifice and spiritual blood and a spiritual covering. All this manifests in the physical world, but originates in the spiritual realm. The Christ, the spiritual anointing occurs in the heavens, and it is this spiritual lamb that is sacrificed and that descends and the physical realm reflects the spiritual reality. And always in opposition to this one sent from above there is an antichrist spirit that also manifests.... Cain, slays his brother Abel.

So where does the cross come in?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We read in places like Jeremiah, in Hebrews, in the Psalms-- that God did not desire sacrifice.

How many messengers (prophets) did He send to us trying making this point?

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. Hos 6:6

Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. Ps 40:6

“Of what importance to me are your many sacrifices?” says the LORD. “I have had my fill of burnt sacrifices, of rams and the fat from steers. The blood of bulls, lambs, and goats I do not want. Is 1:11

Consider this>>>

For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. So when he came into the world, he said, “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me. Whole burnt offerings and sin-offerings you took no delight in. Then I said, ‘Here I am: I have come—it is written of me in the scroll of the book—to do your will, O God.’”

When he says above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sin-offerings you did not desire nor did you take delight in them” (which are offered according to the law), then he says, “Here I am: I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first to establish the second. By his will, we have been made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands day after day serving and offering the same sacrifices again and again—sacrifices that can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, he sat down at the right hand of God, where he is now waiting until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet. For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy. And the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us, for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will establish with them after those days, says the Lord. I will put my laws on their hearts and I will inscribe them on their minds,” then he says, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no longer.” Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

You have to admit.... it's odd. Indeed, for a very long period of time an entire religious construct was erected on this "atonement" through sacrifice concept, yet God himself said, and the prophets confirmed (including Jesus himself) that God never wanted it. Yet Christians too, have built "a religion" on top of the idea that God "sacrificed" His own son.

Have we missed something?

He did not desire sacrifice. Because that sacrifice could not remove sin

That was not the purpose of the law.

the purpose of the law was to prepare the hearts of Israel. So when their true messiah came, they would be read for him.

He desired our trust in him, Our faith in him. Our repentance.

Thats why in John 3. When telling nicodemus how to be born again. He spoke of an OT story where Israel was being killed by serpents. And they cried out. So God Had moses put a serpent on a pole. And those who looked would live. Those who did not would eventually die that death they were already condemned with when they were bitten

He told us as that happened, so to he would be raised on a pole 9the cross) that whoever in faith, looked to the cross. He too would be saved from the condemnation that made them dead, they would live forever. And they would not die that death that awaited them

As he said, he would believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already. Just like those In Israel, what is the death they woudl suffer?

Rev 21 says they will be delivered to Christ. Ad judged. And then they would be cause out of Gods presence forever. He called this the second death.

Adam died the moment he sinned, He died physically 900 years later

Physical death is not the penalty of sin, it is a result of sin..

Something else happened to adam that day, that cause him to die. God showed him how God would restor him, by sacrificing that animal and covering his sin..

Jesus fulfilled that on the cross. By suffering that same penalty Adam suffered the moment he sinned

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's not the only time he spoke in those same terms. In John 8, he told the Jewish leaders-- Where I'm going, you cannot come... And- You are from below, I am from above. You are from this world. I am not from this world.

But-- Jesus was from around here. He was born in Bethlehem. He grew up in Nazareth. He wasn't from above. So he wasn't speaking of himself. He wasn't speaking of his physical person, but of and by the spirit within him.

But jesus was from above.

he said so in John 3.

13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

He also says it in John 6

62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It’s a hard thing to grasp. Jesus tells them to take up their cross but why. We’ve been told it was once for all?

Because if we want life and more abundantly. Thats what we have to do

But if we have not been saved. It will not help us

You taking up your cross will not save you. You can’t bear your own sins. Let alone pay for them

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No problem. Let me know when you catch your breath... or take one.

I caught it

The more you posted. The more worried and confused I got..

 

[Mr E]

I caught it

The more you posted. The more worried and confused I got..

Perhaps it's not for you then. I'm not a tiller of soil. If you aren't ready to receive, you won't.

Let every heart, prepare him room. Let heaven and nature sing. Let heaven and nature sing.

Joy to the world.

As an aside, there is another thread to discuss the atonement from an orthodox perspective. This ain't it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Perhaps it's not for you then. I'm not a tiller of soil. If you aren't ready to receive, you won't.

Or what if you are wrong. And I can not recieve because it literally makes no sense

Let every heart, prepare him room. Let heaven and nature sing. Let heaven and nature sing.

Joy to the world.

As an aside, there is another thread to discuss the atonement from an orthodox perspective. This ain't it.

I want to discuss atonement.

Not what people think it means, but what it really is.

Not from a catholic perspectibe, or an orthodox perspective or any respective really. Just like in My john 6 thread. I just want to discuss what it is

don’t you?

Atonment is the means to salvation. Is this not to important of a subject to get it wrong?

Do you have anything to say in response to all the post I made?

 

[Waiting on him]

Because if we want life and more abundantly. Thats what we have to do

But if we have not been saved. It will not help us

You taking up your cross will not save you. You can’t bear your own sins. Let alone pay for them

Where do you believe they were to follow Jesus too?

As of two days ago I now realize where the cross led too- crucifiction of the flesh.

Paul said I am crucified with Christ. He even got a new name.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Where do you believe they were to follow Jesus too?

look at jesus life, how he reacted to different situations and why he did things, he was out to harvest the fruit,

that is what and where we go.

As of two days ago I now realize where the cross led too- crucifiction of the flesh.

Paul said I am crucified with Christ. He even got a new name.

Yes,

but he still had to be saved.

the wage of sin is death, the gift of god is life

the wage had to be removed. We are unable to do that ourself, that’s where the cross came in

 

[Waiting on him]

You are getting good glimpses of it all. Are you familiar with fractals? I'll post an example, but in general, they are never-ending patterns that repeat in various ways, infinitely. A simple design repeats itself in different dimensional scales in self-similar ways where close examination includes the realization that we've seen this before. In a way it's a bit like Moses in the wilderness for forty years.

When you start recognizing these 'circles and cycles' and repeating patterns in scripture and can accept them for what they are (rather than theologizing them into something else) it's like kick-starting an awakening within you. As if someone next door pulled out a chainsaw next door at 7:00 am on a Saturday morning when you were planning on sleeping in. At first it might be annoying, or even irritating to your soul, but once awakened, there's no going back to sleep.

Regarding Psalm 19-- I love it. I believe it. The heavens declare the glory of God; the sky displays his handiwork.

It's not a stretch at all to consider this an example of 'the gospel' message being taken everywhere. The stars shine as ever present witnesses to creation and they speak of His glory. Paul expresses the same sentiment in Col 1-- This gospel has also been preached in all creation under heaven, and I, Paul, have become its servant. But David said it first. David said it best, right there in Ps 19.

David, the anointed one. David Christ.

The stars are the twelve tribes.

Genesis 37:9 KJV
And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

 

[Waiting on him]

look at jesus life, how he reacted to different situations and why he did things, he was out to harvest the fruit,

that is what and where we go.

Yes,

but he still had to be saved.

the wage of sin is death, the gift of god is life

the wage had to be removed. We are unable to do that ourself, that’s where the cross came in

I’m beginning to believe that all this time I’ve been grabbing the low hanging fruit, and I’ll never get the good stuff unless I am also lifted up.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I’m beginning to believe that all this time I’ve been grabbing the low hanging fruit, and I’ll never get the good stuff unless I am also lifted up.

Look at the people God lifted up. Unlike the people the world sees as mighty and great, But people of low stature, Sinners, Young adults who had not even done anything yet.

Yet these people received Gods promises, were assured God would keep his promises. and in spite of opposition moved on.

Even Jesus, He was a lowly carpenters son, and bastard child (so the world saw him as such)

Jesus will lift you up as high as you want to go, But you have to trust him. One thing we can learn from his word is he knows who believes and who does not believe.

if your not his child. he will not lift you at all

If you are his child. He will not lift you beyond what you can handle.

 

[Mr E]

I’m beginning to believe that all this time I’ve been grabbing the low hanging fruit, and I’ll never get the good stuff unless I am also lifted up.

And he taught us to pray--

Give us this day, our daily bread.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

?? what does that have to do with our atonement?

 

[Mr E]

?? what does that have to do with our atonement?

Kind of everything.... thank you @Born Again Bob

-because that was the transgression. That was the sin against God, the act of disobedience, or so the story goes....

And the next thing that happened, was the atonement.... the covering.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

The cover up is always worse than the crime, so the saying goes.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Kind of everything.... thank you @Born Again Bob

Actually it show2s why we need for atonement.

But it does not say what atonement is..

-because that was the transgression. That was the sin against God, the act of disobedience, or so the story goes....

And the next thing that happened, was the atonement.... the covering.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

The cover up is always worse than the crime, so the saying goes.

For the animals slaughtered to cover them,. Agree. it cost them their lives.

 

[Mr E]

Actually I was comparing your "another way of looking at it" to that of the snake
in the garden of Eden. The devil always has another way of looking at it.

lol.... okay. Thanks for coming out.

 

[Mr E]

You can always expect the truth from me.
I am born of the truth.

Well that’s a lie.

You were born a man, right?

 

[Waiting on him]

@Mr E I see no reason as to why the God that Jesus displays in the first century would separate Himself from them?

 

[Mr E]

@Mr E I see no reason as to why the God that Jesus displays in the first century would separate Himself from them?

I'm not sure what you are asking here. God is apart from us. Or a better way of saying it-- we have been separated from Him. This speaks to the difference between spirit and flesh, the holy (set apart) from the corruptible. It's not so much an act, but a condition. It's positional.

Jesus came to illuminate this in a way that folks couldn't get their heads around. Their whole religious system was based on repeated sacrificial offerings as a means to atone for sins they repeatedly committed. Jesus demonstrated and explained it's not like that. It's not through religious rote that our relationship with the Father is established or restored. It's positional in that we have to go to Him. It's a condition we have to be healed from.