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Modern Prophets

Discussion in 'Christian Spirituality Forum' started by marks, May 19, 2020.

  1. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Just a quick note: The Wiki article seems to be contradicting itself here. If modern discussions on the issue "focus more on the use of charismatic gifts in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements," then Cessationism still being a Protestant doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing "ceased with the Apostolic Age" cannot be so. But about your response:
    I was asking for you to clarify your position, LoL. That was a good start, but define specifically how you are Continuationist if you believe that the Spirit does not need to be poured out anymore. I'm guessing I know your answer, but I can't comment on it until you state it in plain terms.
     
  2. Willie T

    Willie T Heaven Sent Staff Member

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    One (partial) explanation I found:

    If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it (Jeremiah 18:7-10).

    Here, God explicitly stated that prophecies are announcements of coming disaster or good. But the recipients of that prophecy can influence the way the prophecy is fulfilled. Announcements of disaster might be reconsidered if the people repent. And announcements of blessing might be reconsidered if the people begin to act sinfully.

    This may sound strange at first, but it makes perfect sense once we understand that prophets were covenant ambassadors. God’s covenant required loyalty from his people and provided consequences both for obedience and for disobedience.

    Some people think the main purpose of biblical prophecy is to predict the future, and certainly that is an element of biblical prophecy. But traditionally, a lot of people have spoken of prophecy as being both forth-telling and foretelling. Foretelling would be, of course, the prediction of the future. But the forth-telling is very important when you read the prophets, because very often much of what they say is not predictive in nature. They’re confronting the people with their sin, they’re accusing them of having broken God’s law; they’re calling them back to repentance — so we could say it’s hortatory. And I happen to believe that the predictive element is secondary, that what God is really trying to do in classical biblical prophecy, like Amos, Isaiah, Hosea, those kinds of books, is he’s calling the people back to a proper relationship with himself. And very often the predictions are contingent; they’re conditional. God is showing them what their future looks like if they don’t repent. And actually, that’s the last thing God wants to do is judge them. So he’s warning them, if you don’t repent, here’s what’s going to happen. But if they do repent, God may very well not bring that judgment upon them. Or in the case of a prophecy of salvation, he’s showing them here’s what your future will look like if you continue to obey me or if you come back. So it can be negative or positive motivation. So I think it’s very important that we merge the foretelling and the forth-telling and understand that’s what biblical prophecy is really all about.
    — Dr. Robert Chisholm, Jr.


    Now, it’s important to point out that sometimes God actually did intend prophecies to give his people a glimpse of a certain future. At other times, he was so intent on bringing a prophecy to pass as stated that he miraculously ensured that his people would act in ways that brought about its unmodified fulfillment. At times like these, the prophets explicitly indicated God’s strong intentions.

    One way that God indicated his strong intentionality was by adding assurances to his prophecies. These might be words stating his strong intentions, symbolic prophetic actions, or even miraculous signs. Whenever this type of assurance accompanied a prophecy, it indicated that it would be harder for human beings to change the prophecy’s outcome.

    Sometimes, we see other prophecies confirmed by promises in places like Amos 4:2, where God swore by his holiness; Jeremiah 49:13, where he swore by himself; and Ezekiel 5:11, where God said that judgment would come as surely as he lives.

    When God swore by himself, he effectively removed the possibility of human responses thwarting the outcome of the prophecy. God’s promises raised the certainty of the predicted outcome to the level of the covenant itself. As surely as God can’t lie, he won’t change what he’s sworn by himself.

    The fact that God sometimes reinforced his prophecies by assurances and promises ought to comfort us, because our Christian faith is grounded in the eventual fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Most importantly, we believe there will come a day when Christ will return to earth to judge his enemies and reward his faithful followers. We have hope that one day God will restore his creation and wipe every tear from our eyes. These prophecies have been reinforced so frequently throughout Scripture that we know they can never be revoked or reduced. One day, all these predictions about Christ’s return will come true.
     
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  3. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Ick!

    Of course He has shown concern for them in shedding His blood on their behalf, but this answer presumes the nations have all responded to that call by placing their faith in it, and they have not. Thus, to leave them in their unbelief concerning it and in their sin would not be showing continued care for them. It is through prophetic warnings that they will be shown their need to take it seriously and repent and believe before it is too late.

    Ick, and Double Ick. Stop posting things like that, LoL.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  4. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Spiritual Warrior Staff Member

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    marks likes this.
  5. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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  6. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    I would hate to cut him up too badly here, but his views are too church-centric. He is failing to mention that those books also contained prophecies regarding the nations.
    Yes. Excellent citations. When the Lord prophecies like this, people can pray until they are blue in the face and it won't help. The same is true of when He will have to tell sinful mankind to depart from Him into judgment. He opened a way for men to receive forgiveness through His blood, but also warned that damnation awaited those who still rejected His sacrifice. It is a promise He cannot go back on.
     
  7. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    :eek:

    Merely trying to be descriptive of the school of thought. Some of the names I've heard are Latter Rain, New Wine, and Second Outpouring.

    Much love!
     
  8. Willie T

    Willie T Heaven Sent Staff Member

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    I'll rephrase it. Are these things to be considered to be bad?
     
  9. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Yes He has given much more to the nations in Christ than He did through the prophets. The prophets point the way, but Jesus is the Way.

    And how is this Gospel message being brought to the peoples of the nations?

    Titus
    1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
    2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
    3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

    1 Corinthians 1:18 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

    1 Corinthians 1:21 "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

    A "greater than Jeremiah" has come. In Christ is salvation. We preach Christ crucified.

    Simply put, God has not left them "blowing in the wind", but sends His apostles (missionaries) with proclamation of the Gospel, the heart of redemption, with the true remedy. This is in no wise "less than".

    Much love!
     
  10. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    It sure seems to me that this is one of those statements of "this is the way it is". And it would apply at any time God warns a nation to judge it, or announces that it is to be planted.

    The real question to me is, Is God in currently in the business of judging nations? I think that He is not judging nations at this time, though He will in times to come.

    I suggest that the judgment God is doing right now is individually, per Romans 1, in giving people over to their sin, that they will never repent, and will remain condemned.

    Much love!
     
  11. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Spiritual Warrior Staff Member

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  12. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Oh, how I have missed a lot!
    There is a reason for such skepticism and even for Paul's comments (which were not against prophecies or gifts, but only against what is false). But the answer is two-fold:

    1. It is not good to judge prophecies by whether they are specific or not, for even Jesus plucked out small bits of scripture to confirm things seemingly unrelated to their original context. And He explained, simply stating "If you are willing to receive it."

    2. There is a difference in the prophecies of old and the prophecies of this present era. During the former times things were unfolding. But now (by the same Spirit and gift of prophecy) I can tell you that things are not likewise unfolding, but rather folding again. Just as the Son came from the Father and returned to Him, these are the times of returning.

    But do be careful what you believe, much of it is indeed false, and we have been warned.
     
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  13. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Second Pentecost. Not going to happen.

    We have received the Holy Spirit already. He was given at that Pentecost, and does not need to be "re-poured out".

    I would be called "continuationist" in believing that the spiritual gifts taught in the New Testament are given to the church today, and did not cease (cessassionism) after the Apostolic times.

    Much love!
     
  14. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Some save through compassion, others through fear . . .
     
  15. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Good food for thought!

    Much love!
     
  16. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    And I've missed you!

    :)
     
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  17. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    No one teaches a "Second Pentecost," LoL.
    Ok, well then let me ask you this: If the Spirit was poured out once and for all, then why would Paul urge the Corinthians to be zealous for i.e. pray for the greater gifts, especially the ability to prophecy? Why would the outpouring be different for the New Testament saints than it is for us today, and why didn't they just automatically receive the Spirit when they received the word, as I'm guessing you believe we all do today?
     
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  18. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    You should google it. That idea has been floating around maybe the last 100 years or so. Goes under different names. Latter Rain is what I've probably heard the most.

    The idea that the church has become so weak, spiritually emaciated, and lacks the power to transform the world anymore. Shortly before the return of Christ (or, like everything, there are a number of variations), there will be a Fresh Outpouring of the Holy Spirit, as transformative of the Body of Christ as the first Pentecost. The church will suddendly purify, will work miracles, be prophets, doing signs and wonders.

    This is based on a terrible error, that we are deficient in the Holy Spirit now, and actually communicates the idea that Can't fulfill God's intent for us Right Now, and that we're waiting for the "latter rain".

    This is a similar issue with @Episkopos 's doctrine, that we have to muddle along best we can now, hoping that God touches us with His greater power. But we have His power in us now, and we can fulfill His intent for our lives Right Now, if we will only believe. But those who say we haven't got it yet, they speak against that.

    We all are to desire the greater gifts, and the Holy Spirit gives gifts as He chooses. And I can seek God for a gift, and He may give it to me. But that doesn't mean that there is some new outpouring of the Holy Spirit, other than what has been.

    The Holy Spirit was poured out on all flesh. And now I want a fresh filling in me. If that's what you mean, we are in agreement. But if you mean a new mass outpouring, that's already happened, and He is still here.

    Much love!
     
  19. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    The Holy Spirit being poured out "on all flesh", means "all." Not even only during these times, but also the former times, and not only on the good, but on the evil.

    All means all.

    The prophecy of Joel was a revelation. Christ ascended, but also descended.
     
  20. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Alright, then I just learned something. The latter rain I fully subscribe to, though many I've seen who prophesied about it have said things that are in error. Applying the term "Second Pentecost" IMO would be a mistake, although I am curious to see what prophetic scenario they place behind it to term it as such. I'll look it up later.
    Yes. Latter rain teaching. You don't believe the church is in a weakened state compared to New Testament times? Churches moved in the gifts, and apparently all of them if what Paul described in Corinthians was indicative of most churches. How many churches today do you think move in all the supernatural gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:7-12?
     
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