Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Well thank you Joe, that is very kind of you to say so, I truly appreciate it and I am holding back my fingers from calling you sir.
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Well thank you Joe, that is very kind of you to say so, I truly appreciate it and I am holding back my fingers from calling you sir.
Romans 6:3-11 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Do you not yet reckon yourself crucified in Christ? Is this an example of God counselling us to pretend something that isn't true?
Much love![/QUOTE]
Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal_6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Gal_5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Do you not yet reckon yourself crucified in Christ? Is this an example of God counselling us to pretend something that isn't true?
Much love![/QUOTE]
Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal_6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Gal_5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
And the teachers in Israel have never been in agreement on exactly which and how many are included. The Mitzvot itself is rejected by many rabbis. Some folks don't seem to like the idea of summarizing or creedalizing the Torah. :)
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Do you think it's okay for Christian Americans to idolize, blaspheme, dishonor parents, murder, steal, lie covet, etc.?
The New Testament says sin is the transgression of the law and Paul says he wouldn't have known what sin was unless he'd known the ten commandments.
I myself remember a time when Christians conscientiously observed Sunday in direct deference to the 4th commandment.
The obsolescence of the ten commandments is almost entirely a construct of the modern-to-postmodern world.
:)
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Finding fault with everything, that's a tall order!
My wife likes to tell me I always contradict her. We both enjoy my answer, "I do not!"
Yes, pride comes in many forms, well, mostly in one. But it is displayed in many ways.
I urge towards the higher calling of Christ.
Much love!
Do you then believe these are true? Do we yet have to crucify our flesh?
The point is not to find fault, Johann, it is to point to faith. If we believe we must yet crucify our old man, that is one thing, but if we believe this is already accomplished for us, and we need only walk in this accomplished truth, that is something different.
Jesus said that truth sets us free, so let's know and walk in truth.
Much love!
Jim B
Well-Known Member
What scissors did you use to cut these verses from your Bible?
"For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!" Romans 6:14-15 NIV
"To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law." 1 Corinthians 9:20
"For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Galatians 3:10
"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Galatians 5:18 (Nothing could be clearer than this verse!)
You need to learn that ALL of YHVH's instructions are for ALL people. Exodus 12:49 is only one of dozens of passages that say that. Zechariah 14 tells us that about life after Jesus returns. It says we will all speak one language, and that YHVH's Law will go forth from Zion. We will walk in HIS ways and observe HIS feasts. It is completely illogical for Christians to claim all the promises from the OT belong to them, but the instructions are for someone else. The promises are inextricably linked to the instructions.
"Jesus fulfilled the Law" does NOT mean He destroyed it. In fact, He says that exact thing. To fulfill is to fill up the meaning. It is to cram. It is to cause an overflow. "Fulfilling the Law" is having all the events of His ministry and death line up perfectly with the feasts of YHVH. He filled up the meaning of the feasts of YHVH by living them through His ministry. Without a Law to fulfill, any impostor would have just as legitimate a claim as Jesus.
Luke 24:44 in action:
Exodus 12:3, the selection of the Passover Lamb, fulfilled by Matthew 21:9.
Leviticus 23:5, the rehearsal of the events of Exodus 12, fulfilled by the crucifixion and that fulfillment confirmed by 1 Corinthians 5:7.
Leviticus 23:10 fulfilled by Matthew 27:52.
Leviticus 23:11-12 described in John 20:17
The High Priest offers the first fruits offering. The saints that rose from the graves that day were the first fruits.
He fulfilled the Spring feasts on His first visit. When He returns, He will fulfill the Fall feasts. That's the only way the Book of Revelation can be deciphered. That's why YHVH gave us the Law. It is the schoolmaster that leads us to the Messiah. It is the verification that Jesus is Who He says He is.
Romans 14 does not offer a principle to justify disobedience. It certainly does not say it is now OK to put pagan rituals in YHVH's face. YHVH said specifically not to do it. He says it is an abomination to do it. If you are disobeying him, he doesn't care about what you claim is in your heart. The Spirit of YHVH is not going to lead people to commit abominations. He cares about what you do. THAT is premise on which we will be judged. Revelation 20:12-13.
"Redeeming a Christmas tree" is nonsense. If you fully acknowledge it is a pagan symbol, how can it possibly be appropriate? It is a phallic symbol for Tammuz. It is a symbol that celebrates sexual prowess. Is that what Jesus wants you to do? Really?
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Do you believe that one part of New Testament Scripture cancels out another?
Perhaps the "law" part of being "under the law" means something other than the ten commandments?
Like maybe the law of sin and death?
Who relies on the works of the law for anything except:
"...that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!" (Deuteronomy 5:29)
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
I understand this remark is metaphorical but I don't know what it means.
I used my laptop and BibleHub.com, I guess.
:)
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Jim B
Well-Known Member
You wrote that Christians are under the law, and I responded: What scissors did you use to cut these verses from your Bible?
"For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!" Romans 6:14-15 NIV
"To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law." 1 Corinthians 9:20
"For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Galatians 3:10
"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Galatians 5:18 (Nothing could be clearer than this verse!)
These verses clearly show that Christians are not under the Law. If you disagree then either you're not informed or you cut them out, either from a paper Bible or via your PC. The Bible says what it says, despite your effort to claim otherwise.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Honestly, it's like you didn't even read my post. I never wrote that "Christians are under the law" and I never said that the verses you quoted don't exist or are not true.
And, by the way, I could just as easily say that you claim the Bible doesn't say what it "clearly" says.
But why should we accuse each other of such things?
What I'm saying is that the phrase "under the law" is not being interpreted correctly when it is believed to mean that the ten commandments are no longer the the law of God for Christians. If you want to accuse people of denying Scripture that's your privilege, but it doesn't dissolve the problem that certain verses in question seem to contradict each other and that just ignoring one or the other is no solution to the problem.
Do you deny that Romans 7:7 and 1 John 3:4 teach that sin is the breaking of the ten commandments?
Or are these verses unclear?
I personally think they are clearer than the phrase "under the law."
No in depth study is required to determine their meaning.
"Under the law," however...
This is the basic claim that is being made to excuse the Christian from obedience to the ten commandments:
"Paul declares that we are not under the law, but under grace. (Rom. 6:14) The law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (John 1:17.) Paul also declares that 'Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes.' Rom. 10:4. These texts prove that the law was abolished by Christ."
To which, I would reply:
There is no conflict between law and grace, or between law and gospel. A simple definition of the two will help out in this matter.
By law-we mean God's standard of right and wrong, the yardstick by which we can tell whether we have fallen short of God's requirements. The word "gospel' means good news-good news of salvation from sin. (See Matt. 1:21)
And the Bible defines sin as any violation of the divine law. (See 1 John 3: 1-4.) So, then, the gospel is the good news of God's plan to save us from breaking His holy law. Thus instead of law and gospel being in opposition, they are in close fellowship.
And the very existence of the gospel proves that the law is still in force, for what would be the point in preaching the good news of salvation from breaking the law if the law were no longer in force? A man cannot break that which does not exist.
Let us now read, in its setting, the key text in this discussion: "Sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid." Rom. 6:14, 15.
We discover immediately that whatever else Paul wishes us to understand by this passage, he does not want us to think that the reign of grace frees us from obedience to the law, 'What then?" says he; "shall we sin," that is, break the law, "because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."
The very next verse makes clear that Paul here uses the phrase "under the law" to mean "under its condemnation," and "under grace" to mean "living under the plan that God has offered of salvation from the bondage of sin."
For Paul follows right on to say: "Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? ... Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness." Verses 16-18.
The contrast is between servants "of sin" and servants "of obedience unto righteousness." What is it that gives strength to sin? It is the law, says Paul. (See 1 Cor. 15:56) The fact that the law exists and pronounces a death penalty for evildoing and evil living is what gives to sin its power over those who indulge in unlawful acts. The law does not lay its strong hand on the man who does not violate it. Its strength is felt only by the lawbreaker.
Paul says sin is no longer to hold us in its grip, because we are living under, or have accepted, God's plan of grace, which gives us a power that not only pardons us from sin, but also breaks the grip of sin in our lives. Thus instead of being servants of sin, we become servants of "obedience unto righteousness."
And what is righteousness? It is right doing, right living, a state of heart the very opposite of sinfulness or lawlessness.
Paul in a later chapter tells how the grace of the gospel of Jesus Christ brings righteousness to us, and how this righteousness is directly related to the law.
We read: "What the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom. 8:3,4.
Paul deals with the same problem in Galatians 3:24, 25: "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."
The law can show us our sinfulness and bring to us such conviction of sin that we shall be driven to Christ, who can free us from our sins. When we receive Christ we are no longer under the domination-the condemnation-of the law.
But we are not freed from obedience to God's law, for in accepting Christ we receive divine power for obedience to that law, as is explained in the passage just quoted from Romans 8. Thus Galatians 3:24, 25 gives no support to the claim that the law is abolished.
How plain and simple it is, then, that when we accept God's Son and the grace He offers, we do not turn our back on the law,
Rather, we find that the "righteousness of the law-is "fulfilled in us." Instead of being sinners, breakers of God's law, we find that we are obedient to it.
In the light of these facts there is no difficulty in the text: "The law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." John 1:17. While Moses served a very great purpose in the plan of God-for through him God gave to the world the written form of the moral code-yet through Christ came divine grace, without which the law cannot truly be kept.
The man who accepts Christ no longer strives to obtain righteousness by keeping the law. Upon his acceptance of Christ, the Savior's righteousness is imputed to him. Says Paul: "Now the righteousness of God without [or, apart from] the law is manifested being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe." Rom. 3:21, 22. Because "the righteousness of God can be obtained apart from the law, Paul can well declare: "Christ is the end of the law of righteousness to every one that believes." Rom. 10:4.
To everyone who believes on Him, Christ brings to an absolute end the use of the law as a means of obtaining righteousness.
Or, again, we may understand that word "end" as meaning the objective or purpose. Christ was the objective the law had in view; for the purpose of the law is to cause men so to realize their sinfulness, their unrighteousness, that they will go to Christ for His righteousness, which not only is imputed in justification but is actually imparted in the daily living, as is clearly taught in Galatians 2:20. This use of the word "end" is found in James 5: 11 and 1 Timothy 1: 5.
Both law and grace came from heaven. How happy are we as Christians that we are not called upon to reject one in order to have the other. By the power of God's grace we no longer dwell under the condemnation of the law, but are in Him raised up to the lofty plane of complete obedience to this divine code.
Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown, in their Bible commentary, make this observation in a note at the close of their comments on Romans 6:
"The fundamental principle of Gospel-obedience is as original as it is divinely rational; that 'we are set free from the law in order to keep it, and are brought graciously under servitude to the law in order to be free' (v. 14, 15, 18).
So long as we know no principle of obedience but the terrors of the law, which condemns all the breakers of it, and knows nothing whatever of grace, either to pardon the guilty or to purify the stained, we are shut up under a moral impossibility of genuine and acceptable obedience.
Whereas when Grace lifts us out of this state, and through union to a righteous Surety, brings us into a state of conscious reconciliation, and loving surrender of heart to a God of salvation, we immediately feel the glorious liberty to be holy, and the assurance that 'Sin shall not have dominion over us' is as sweet to our renewed tastes and aspirations as the the ground of it is felt to be firm, 'because we are not under the Law, but under Grace."
:)
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Jim B
Well-Known Member
Sorry but I believe what the Bible clearly says, not your confused interpretation of it. Being under the law is denying Christ. Period.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Do you deny that Romans 7:7 and 1 John 3:4 teach that sin is the breaking of the ten commandments?
Jim B
Well-Known Member
Jim B
Well-Known Member
Your Scripture selections are a joke! Do you really not understand what Paul was discussing in Romans? I suggest you continue read to the next chapter. The same applies to the next chapter in 1 John.
Being under the law is denying Christ. Period. Your exegesis is tragic!
I am ignoring you from now on.
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