Most Christians boldly proclaim "I know Him" but do NOT guard/keep His commandments!

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Robert Gwin

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So the perfect obedience to the law and ceremonial rites is what is going to get us into Heaven? Correct me if I am wrong.

It cannot be that Joe, as all of us are sinners Rom 3:23. Jesus however did have perfect obedience and he did go to heaven. For us however it is impossible, so those who go to heaven have been sealed and redeemed by the blood sacrifice of Jesus Rev 5:9
 
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Johann

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It cannot be that Joe, as all of us are sinners Rom 3:23. Jesus however did have perfect obedience and he did go to heaven. For us however it is impossible, so those who go to heaven have been sealed and redeemed by the blood sacrifice of Jesus Rev 5:9

Excellent Robert
 

Robert Gwin

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Jesus does not say no part of the law will ever pass away; he says no part of it shall pass away until it is fulfilled. He says he came to do this very thing, to fulfill it. So, with his coming, the law has been fulfilled and has passed away. We now live under the law of Christ, not beneath the law of Moses.

Let's summarize

The law of Moshe, which condemns<
Law as a principle
Law of faith which excludes self-righteousness
Law of sin in the members which is victorious over the law of the mind
Law of the mind, which consents to the law of Moshe but cannot do it because of the law of sin in the members
Law of the Spirit having power to deliver the believer from the law of sin which is in his members, and his conscience from condemnation by the Mosaic law

Rom_10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Gal_3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal_5:4 Christ is become
of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Gal_6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
...the law/nomos/entole/
(SEFER TORAT
MOSHE)...of Who? Moses or Christ, which is greater than Moshe?

Right on my friend! Keep in mind however, that some laws of the Law Covenant are part of the Law of the Christ. We are bound by those laws given to Christians found in what is called the New Testament of the Bible. Jesus mentioned two which were actually part of the Ten Commandments themselves at Mat 22:37-39
 

Johann

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Right on my friend! Keep in mind however, that some laws of the Law Covenant are part of the Law of the Christ. We are bound by those laws given to Christians found in what is called the New Testament of the Bible. Jesus mentioned two which were actually part of the Ten Commandments themselves at Mat 22:37-39
You are a great encourager and highly favored Robert
 
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Ronald Nolette

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One function of the Law is to guard us from the pollutions of idols.

Obedience to the Law, specifically, observance of YHVH's appointed times, keeps us from spiritual adultery. It keeps us doing what YHVH says we should not do. Deuteronomy 12:28-32 tells us to NOT do what the pagans do to honor their gods and re-direct it to YHVH. It is an abomination.

Christmas features the tree erected for Tammuz. Easter uses the symbols of a Babylonian goddess. Sunday is the day honoring Sol Invictus.
Daniel 7:25

People can claim anything. What they do shows what they really believe. A person can submit to the authority of God's Law, or they can submit to the authority of pagan gods. Those are the only 2 possibilities.

It is not about keeping it perfectly. It is about choosing the correct things to keep.

One does not take a bat and glove to play football.

One should not take a Tammuz tree to the Temple.


You need to remember this was a command to the nation of Israel and not to the church. The law has been rendered inoperative for it was perfectly fulfilled by Jesus. We can use any externals. God judges the heart intent now. Paul laid down teh priniciple that governs this in Romans 14.

I have taught on how to redeem the Christmas tree. I fully acknowledge it was a pagan symbol and the day was during the winter pagan festivals. As long as you do not honor the day and tree in those reasons, there is no wrong. they are merely external symbols. It is how we view and value them that make them wright or wrong.
 
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Cassandra

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You need to remember this was a command to the nation of Israel and not to the church. The law has been rendered inoperative for it was perfectly fulfilled by Jesus. We can use any externals. God judges the heart intent now. Paul laid down teh priniciple that governs this in Romans 14.

I have taught on how to redeem the Christmas tree. I fully acknowledge it was a pagan symbol and the day was during the winter pagan festivals. As long as you do not honor the day and tree in those reasons, there is no wrong. they are merely external symbols. It is how we view and value them that make them wright or wrong.

Can you say the same about images?
 
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Cassandra

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Who said anything about obedience to the law/nomos/entole?

Are you able to keep it and the 613 laws perfectly?

..before you shout "yes"...you do not need a Saviour
Are the 613 scriptural?

The Origin of the Idea that God Gave Moses 613 Commandments

The only place where talmudic and midrashic manuscripts uniformly preserve the idea that God gave Israel exactly 613 commandments is the famous passage in Bavli Makkot 23b-24a.[4] This aggadic text reads (translation my own):

דרש רבי שמלאי שש מאות ושלש עשרה מצות נאמרו לו למשה שלש מאות וששים וחמש לאוין כמנין ימות החמה ומאתים וארבעים ושמונה עשה כנגד איבריו של אדם Rabbi Simlai expounded: “613 commandments were said to Moses, 365 negative commandments, like the days of the year, and 248 positive commandments, corresponding to a person’s limbs.”[5]


The Origins and Use of the 613 Mitzvot - TheTorah.com
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Can you say the same about images?

Well so many bibles have pictures of Jesus, we watch movies about Jesus and these are nothing more than images, howbeit different from the ancient ones.

If one places value in praying in front of the image or that the image holds some kind of transubstantiatory power towards God, then that is evil. However if it is nothing more than a visible reminder of who God is and how great He is I personally see nothing wrong. Once again I am convinced it is more the intent of the heart than the physical itself.

Paul had no problem eating meat offered to idols, but willingly would give it up if it caused a brother to stumble. A Statue or picture is neutral, it is us who empower it for evil or good. We should never bow before an image or pray towards it.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Are the 613 scriptural?

The Origin of the Idea that God Gave Moses 613 Commandments

The only place where talmudic and midrashic manuscripts uniformly preserve the idea that God gave Israel exactly 613 commandments is the famous passage in Bavli Makkot 23b-24a.[4] This aggadic text reads (translation my own):

דרש רבי שמלאי שש מאות ושלש עשרה מצות נאמרו לו למשה שלש מאות וששים וחמש לאוין כמנין ימות החמה ומאתים וארבעים ושמונה עשה כנגד איבריו של אדם Rabbi Simlai expounded: “613 commandments were said to Moses, 365 negative commandments, like the days of the year, and 248 positive commandments, corresponding to a person’s limbs.”[5]


The Origins and Use of the 613 Mitzvot - TheTorah.com


There are many many more references to the Mosaic Law containing 613 commands. Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum of Ariel.org could give you many many references to Israel having 613 commands. they covered three categories men divided them up in.

1. MOral
2. Civil.
3. Ceremonial
 

marks

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There is still hope Robert, we are to crucify, once, and once for all, the "old man" and allow the indwelling Holy Spirit full reign in every sphere of our lives.
Johann

Romans 6:3-11 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Do you not yet reckon yourself crucified in Christ? Is this an example of God counselling us to pretend something that isn't true?

Much love!
 
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marks

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1 John 3:21-24 KJV
21) Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22) And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24) And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Trust Jesus, and love others.

Much love!
 

marks

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Well so many bibles have pictures of Jesus, we watch movies about Jesus and these are nothing more than images, howbeit different from the ancient ones.

If one places value in praying in front of the image or that the image holds some kind of transubstantiatory power towards God, then that is evil. However if it is nothing more than a visible reminder of who God is and how great He is I personally see nothing wrong. Once again I am convinced it is more the intent of the heart than the physical itself.

Paul had no problem eating meat offered to idols, but willingly would give it up if it caused a brother to stumble. A Statue or picture is neutral, it is us who empower it for evil or good. We should never bow before an image or pray towards it.
We need to keep the commandments which were delivered to us, to trust Jesus, and love others.

As far as the Mosaic Law, to that we are dead. It does not govern our lives.

Much love!
 
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MatthewG

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10 commanders was for the nation of Israel @BarnyFife, given by Moses. I meant commandments.
 

BarneyFife

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It has been said that Christ, in fulfilling the moral law, actually abolished the Ten Commandments. However, let's take a look at what Jesus actually says in Matthew 5:17-19:

'Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets' (v. 17). Jesus certainly did not do the very thing that He came not to do!

'I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.' According to Webster's Dictionary, 'fulfill,' when applied to a law, means 'to answer its demands by obedience.' It here means the opposite of 'destroy,' as in the following scriptures: 'And shall not uncircumcision, which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?' (Romans 2:27) 'Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ' (Galatians 6:2). 'If ye fulfill the royal law, according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well' (James 2:8).

Thus, those who make this argument would have Christ teach that He came not to destroy the law but to destroy the law. That doesn't make sense, does it?

'Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in nowise pass from the law' (Matthew 5:18). Heaven and earth still remain; thus, we can know from Jesus' own lips that the law was not and has not been abolished.

'Till all is fulfilled' (Matthew 5:18). This passage was originally written in Greek. In the Greek language, words that go together must share certain qualities, such as gender or number. The word 'all' is neuter in gender and plural in number. Therefore, it cannot refer directly to 'law,' which is masculine in gender and singular in number. 'All' refers to all things respecting heaven and earth that are spoken of in the prophets (Old Testament).

The term 'fulfilled' in this verse comes from a different Greek word than the word 'fulfilled' in the expression, 'I did not come to destroy, but to fulfill' (verse 17). Here in verse 18, this word means 'to come into existence, be created, exist by creation' (William Greenfield, A Greek-English Lexicon to the New Testament). This word 'fulfilled' is translated as 'made' in John 1:3: 'All things were made by him' (KJV). So, again, 'fulfill' actually means the opposite of 'destroy.'

Now comes Christ's own conclusion: 'Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least [or, as George Campbell renders it, 'shall be of no esteem'] in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven' (Matthew 5:19). And to emphasize the point that the law is not abolished, Christ proceeds to explain certain precepts of the law in question in their most spiritual and comprehensive sense.

This law could not cease when Christ came. Three interesting 'tills' or 'untils' in the New Testament provides convincing evidence of this truth:

'The law and the prophets were until John' (Luke 16:16). At the time of John the Baptist, there was a change in the law and the prophets, when he began preaching the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God did not do away with the law and the prophets but added to them. Christ confirmed this in the next verse, making the law firmer than the very pillars of heaven and earth: 'And it is easier,' He said, 'for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail' (verse 17).

'Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in nowise pass from the law.'

'Till all be fulfilled' (Matthew 5:18). That is, ; till all those things to be restored are brought into existence by a new creation. This brings us to the new-earth state, in which righteousness shall dwell (2 Peter 3:13; Psalm 119:172; Isaiah 51:6, 7), and the Sabbath shall continue while eternal ages roll (Isaiah 66:22, 23).

This objection suggests the false doctrine that Christ is the minister of sin. Rather, we believe the Scriptures teach that Christ came to conquer Satan and sin. But according to this objection, the great object of God in sending His Son is frustrated, and Satan and sin triumph at last, for Christ grants men full liberty to transgress all the commandments of God!

As we have seen, the argument that Christ abolished the law is refuted by the Savior's own words in Matthew chapter 5, by Peter's prophecy in 2 Peter 3, by the testimony of Old Testament writers in Psalm 119 and Isaiah 51, and by the fact that Christ cannot be the minister of sin.
 

MatthewG

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So, you're saying that the laws engraved by the finger of God on tables of stone originated with Moses?

Unto the nation of Israel yes. I believe so. Everything in the Bible pertained to the nation of Israel though the inclusion of the Gentiles by the chosen nation of Israel by God refused that notion. They also had the Son of God killed in that day of their generation, from my understanding. As you shared a long post which I haven’t read yet. Jesus at the transfiguration showed the fulfilment of the Law and the prophets.
 

BarneyFife

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Unto the nation of Israel yes. I believe so. Everything in the Bible pertained to the nation of Israel though the inclusion of the Gentiles by the chosen nation of Israel by God refused that notion. They also had the Son of God killed in that day of their generation, from my understanding. As you shared a long post which I haven’t read yet. Jesus at the transfiguration showed the fulfilment of the Law and the prophets.
Who originally said "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" and etched it into tables of stone with His own finger? Are you saying that the answer to this question is "Moses?"
 

MatthewG

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From my understanding @BarnyFife.

God gave the commandments to Moses. Who did he present them to but the nation of Israel?

Would you suggest they are written for the nation of America?