MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[PeterAndroz]

People worship everyday outside of a church = Yes or No?

Yes of course, many people worship outside of a church
Does everyone who goes to Church and gives the impression they are worshipping GOD actually are in their heart worshipping GOD ?
Eg, a young fella trying to impress his Christian girlfriend ?

 

[PeterAndroz]

^^^ title is wrong.

Having the mark of the beast when we are judged means that we will be dispatched into the Lake of Fire, no ifs, no buts.

However, if a person repents of allowing the Indelible Mark of the Beast to be put upon their own body and then lives keeping the conditions of their salvation intact, then the Lake of Fire will hold no claim to them.

Shalom

Can you list the verses that debunk the judgment given in Rev 14:9-11 ?
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[IndianaRob]

Thx for the reply IR.
My response was re the MOTB
Rev 14:9 ......and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Once received, how would they be able to repent of it ?
..
Matt 12:31-32 Blaspheme the HS - no option to repent
Rev 16:9-11 Blas the name of GOD - repent was an option ?? they refused
YET Paul himself was forgiven of BLASPHEMY
1 Tim 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
..
Today the only way I'm aware of that we can blas the HS is by hearing, understanding then rejecting what Christ did to save us from our sins.
If you believe there are other ways, can you list the verses that support your thoughts ?

I don’t think there are any unforgivable sins besides blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes of course, many people worship outside of a church
Does everyone who goes to Church and gives the impression they are worshipping GOD actually are in their heart worshipping GOD ?
Eg, a young fella trying to impress his Christian girlfriend ?

And their are many many people who never step foot in a church and they are worshipping the things of this world/life.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I gave your post to an AI then asked it to point out any and all holes in your approach here.

The following are the holes it found. You are likely unwilling to accept the critque since it was an AI doing the critiquing. That's your choice then. But even so, I don't see this AI not making sense here.

This AI:

This is a fascinating interpretation, and it correctly identifies that Revelation is a highly symbolic book. However, when subjected to strict textual analysis and logical consistency, this approach contains several significant holes.

Here are the primary flaws in this interpreter's approach when compared to the actual text:

### 1. It Creates a Backwards, Unbiblical Logical Loop
The interpreter claims that "buying" means accepting the truth, and "selling" means preaching the gospel. Let's apply that to the actual text of Revelation 13:17: *"no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark..."*
* If this figurative view is correct, the verse would mean: **"No one can accept or preach the truth, *unless they have the mark of the beast*."**
* This makes no sense. The mark of the beast is consistently presented as the absolute opposite of following Christ. If having the mark of the beast is a prerequisite for preaching or accepting the gospel, the interpreter has fundamentally broken the theology of the entire book.

### 2. A False Dichotomy Regarding Salvation
The interpreter asks: *"How can the ability to purchase material things have anything to do with whether you're saved or not?"*
This sets up a false premise. The text never says that buying merchandise *determines* your salvation. Rather, it teaches the exact opposite: **Your salvation (or lack thereof) determines your ability to buy merchandise.**
The sequence in the text is:
1. People refuse to worship the beast (because they belong to Christ).
2. Because they refuse to worship, they refuse the mark.
3. Because they refuse the mark, the beast system economically boycotts them.
The inability to buy and sell is a *consequence* of being saved and refusing to compromise, not the *cause* of salvation.

### 3. It Ignores the Immediate Demographic Context
Revelation 13:16 (the verse immediately preceding the one in question) says the mark is enforced upon *"small and great, rich and poor, free and slave."*
* If the passage is only about the exchange of philosophical or religious ideas, why does the Holy Spirit specifically divide the population by **economic and social class**?
* Terms like "rich and poor" and "free and slave" only make sense in a literal, socio-economic context. A slave and a free man both have minds to believe the gospel, but their ability to participate in literal commerce is vastly different. The interpreter ignores verse 16 to make verse 17 fit their theory.

### 4. Inconsistent Use of Greek Vocabulary
The interpreter relies on Proverbs 23:23 to prove "buy/sell" can be figurative. But we must look at how John uses these exact Greek words (*agorazō* = buy; *pōleō* = sell) in Revelation.
* Just two chapters later, in Revelation 18, Babylon the Great falls. John uses these exact same words repeatedly to describe literal merchants (*emporios*) weeping because no one buys (*agorazō*) their literal cargo anymore—gold, silver, cinnamon, horses, chariots, and even the literal "bodies and souls of men" (slaves) (Rev 18:11-13).
* To force Revelation 13:17 to be purely figurative while Revelation 18 uses the exact same commercial vocabulary for literal physical trade is inconsistent exegesis.

### 5. Breaking the Literary Parallelism of the Passage
Revelation 13:15 says the beast has power to **kill** those who refuse to worship the image.
Revelation 13:17 says the beast prevents those without the mark from **buying or selling**.
In Hebrew apocalyptic literature, these two verses are parallel punishments meant to coerce worship. One is lethal (the sword), the other is non-lethal but equally devastating (economic starvation). If you make verse 17 purely figurative ("they can't share ideas"), you destroy the parallel. The beast is depicted as a totalitarian dictator who uses the sword *and* the purse to force compliance.

### 6. The "Genre Mixing" Fallacy
The interpreter takes a metaphor from Wisdom Literature (Proverbs 23:23) and uses it to overwrite Apocalyptic Literature (Revelation 13:17).
Yes, Proverbs uses "buying truth" as a metaphor for pursuing wisdom. But apocalyptic literature uses extreme, dramatic physical symbols to represent literal, physical realities. For example, Revelation speaks of literal "famines" (Rev 6:8) using the symbol of a black horse. If we applied the interpreter's logic consistently, we would have to argue that the famines in Revelation aren't literal lack of food, but just a "lack of spiritual truth"—which ignores the physical death that accompanies the famine.

### Summary
The interpreter's approach falls apart because it isolates a single metaphor from Proverbs, ignores the immediate context of Revelation 13:16, creates a logical paradox where only the damned can preach the gospel, and fails to recognize that economic sanctions are a standard, literal tool of physical persecution used by totalitarian regimes throughout history (including the Roman Empire John's original audience was facing).
----------------------

(What the AI said per the following reminds me of of what the Trump Administration is setting out to accomplish. I should know. I'm among the poor in this country and have been experiencing some of these attacks upon the poor firsthand---"and fails to recognize that economic sanctions are a standard, literal tool of physical persecution used by totalitarian regimes throughout history"

Obviously then, Trump and his regime are part of this beast system in question. In my mind anyway.)

Your over-reliance on AI says it all about your approach to interpreting scripture. It's sad to witness. You do not even consider the type of text that is used in the book of Revelation when interpreting it. You interpret it as if it's like a news article filled with literal facts. Why you take that approach to interpreting the most highly symbolic book in the entire Bible, I will never know.

Also, I'm not talking about unbelievers preaching the gospel, so you're not even understanding my point. As is almost always the case, it's a complete waste of time trying to reason with you. It makes it even more of a waste of time when you have to always resort to using AI to speak for you.

 

[PeterAndroz]

And their are many many people who never step foot in a church and they are worshipping the things of this world/life.

The whole point is just because a future saint decides to take the mark does not necessarily mean he is worshipping the beast.
eg If ALL your family, friends & people you knew where being shot dead in front of you one at a time until you took the "mark", would you take the 'mark' thereby willing to be like Moses who offered to have his name removed from the book of life so that the rest could be saved ?
Exod 32:32
Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

 

[markalan]

The whole point is just because a future saint decides to take the mark does not necessarily mean he is worshipping the beast.
eg If ALL your family, friends & people you knew where being shot dead in front of you one at a time until you took the "mark", would you take the 'mark' thereby willing to be like Moses who offered to have his name removed from the book of life so that the rest could be saved ?
Exod 32:32
Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

This is where it is important to understand the MOTB is not a literal physical mark (at least not only a physical mark) ... the "forehead" and the "right hand" indicate more than accepting a literal mark ... it is complete and willing submission to the antichrist spirit.

 

[PeterAndroz]

This is where it is important to understand the MOTB is not a literal physical mark (at least not only a physical mark) ... the "forehead" and the "right hand" indicate more than accepting a literal mark ... it is complete and willing submission to the antichrist spirit.

""This is where it is important to understand the MOTB is not a literal physical mark (at least not only a physical mark)""
Are there verses you can quote that support/confirm that ?

 

[markalan]

""This is where it is important to understand the MOTB is not a literal physical mark (at least not only a physical mark)""
Are there verses you can quote that support/confirm that ?

When we consider the significance of forehead/s (mentioned 8 times in Rev) I think it is clear that it is symbolic.

We can also consider the significance of right hand (mentioned 7 times in Rev and throughout Scripture) to determine whether it is literal or symbolic.

If you scroll down to Revelation you will see what I mean

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

"foreheads" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and LexiConc.

www.blueletterbible.org

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

"forehead" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and LexiConc.

www.blueletterbible.org

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

"right" AND "hand" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and LexiConc.

www.blueletterbible.org

 

[WPM]

The whole point is just because a future saint decides to take the mark does not necessarily mean he is worshipping the beast.
eg If ALL your family, friends & people you knew where being shot dead in front of you one at a time until you took the "mark", would you take the 'mark' thereby willing to be like Moses who offered to have his name removed from the book of life so that the rest could be saved ?
Exod 32:32
Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

What are you talking about? Those who take the mark are damned. That is because it is the mark of reprobation.

 

[WPM]

""This is where it is important to understand the MOTB is not a literal physical mark (at least not only a physical mark)""
Are there verses you can quote that support/confirm that ?

Do you believe the mark of God is literal and physical in Rev?

 

[PeterAndroz]

When we consider the significance of forehead/s (mentioned 8 times in Rev) I think it is clear that it is symbolic.

We can also consider the significance of right hand (mentioned 7 times in Rev and throughout Scripture) to determine whether it is literal or symbolic.

If you scroll down to Revelation you will see what I mean

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

"foreheads" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and LexiConc.

www.blueletterbible.org

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

"forehead" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and LexiConc.

www.blueletterbible.org

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

"right" AND "hand" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and LexiConc.

www.blueletterbible.org

So not a 'mark' that everyone can clearly see, eg a tatoo etc ?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Do you believe the mark of God is literal and physical in Rev?

If it's not a literal physical mark that everyone can see then how would any normal human that comes into brief contact with you know whether or not you can be traded with ?
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

[markalan]

So not a 'mark' that everyone can clearly see, eg a tatoo etc ?

Do you think that considering all the references in Revelation to forehead/s and right hand that the meaning is literal or symbolic?

Even if one comes down on the side of symbolic, that does not rule out a physical manifestation.

However, if we do see the "mark" as firstly symbolic, then it makes us more aware of what taking the mark really means.