MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[IndianaRob]

That is a strange verse, while they came to life again, scripture does not tell us what happens to to them. They could have been taken up with Christ at His accession. Feels cruel to push them back into the grave.

Ephesians 4
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also [d]first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

They were what is called “the captivity” in the Old Testament and the Bible says “he led captivity captive”. I take that to mean the captivity went up with Jesus.

But yeah it is a strange verse and only one New Testament account covers it.

 

[rwb]

Daniel is telling us that the resurrection will happen at a time when MANY of them that slept in the dust would awake <—- them rising was not the resurrection, them rising gave the clue to know when the resurrection would start.

There’s only one other place in the Bible where many bodies of the saints that sleep arose.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Resurrection in every instance is always bodily from physical death to physical life. The graves that were opened after Christ physically resurrected are spiritual bodies of saints that were said to be asleep even though their bodies were physically dead in the graves. These saints of Old were not bodily resurrected, because that would force contradiction into the Bible. Because the Bible speaks only of ONE bodily resurrection for all who are in the graves, both those who have done good and those who have done bad.

Christ tells us these bodies of saints arose, not resurrected. Because the bodies of the saints arose a spiritual body, not flesh and bone that shall not be resurrected before the hour that is coming when the last/seventh trumpet begins to sound. The city they entered and were seen by many is Jerusalem above, heavenly Jerusalem where spirits of just men made perfect have spiritually gone when they were born again.

Daniel is not telling us when the resurrection would start. He would not have said they sleep in the dust of the earth, he would have written they physically died and were buried to return to dust of the earth.

When the physical body of mankind dies the flesh and bone return to the earth, but the spirit (breath of life) that gave the physical body life returns to God in heaven. For that reason the spiritual body of Christ (faithful physically dead saints) ascend to heaven a spiritual body after our flesh is dead, that's why we read of living souls in heaven after the body has died.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) ............ and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Scott Downey]

And there is also the

They were what is called “the captivity” in the Old Testament and the Bible says “he led captivity captive”. I take that to mean the captivity went up with Jesus.

But yeah it is a strange verse and only one New Testament account covers it.

The captivity was Abraham's bosom, the place of the righteous dead of the OT times. It was a temporary place of good things, but not heaven. Christ is the only way to the Father in heaven. They could not go there to live with God the Father, until Christ came to bring them with Him into God's Prescence. Christ is the Way, Truth and Life, no one comes to the Father in heaven except through Him..

Hebrews 11, the faith chapter speaks about the faithful OT saints.
They could not yet receive the promise of eternal life, having to wait for Christ to be perfected.

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

 

[Davidpt]

Explain how ONE RESURRECTION involving both the just and unjust at the same time doesn’t prohibit 1000 years.

Both resurrection events recorded in Dan 12:2 indeed happen together, and that they happen when Christ initially returns. Except none of it is meaning Revelation 20:11-15 though.

When Rev 20:11-15 takes place, regardless when it takes place, the saved are already in immortal bodies that happen in a twinkling of an eye at the last trump. It is absurd that those that awake to everlasting life in Dan 12:2 that the moment they rise they are then instantly present at the great white throne judgment. Except when they rise, they don't rise in order to be present at the GWTJ, they rise at the last trump which precedes the GWTJ and that they put on bodily immortality at that time. Thus they are bodily alive and that Rev 20:11-15 is involving a judgment of the dead not a judgment of the living.

It is a contradiction to put on bodily immortality the moment you rise from the dead and in this same moment when you rise you are standing at the GWTJ at the same time. Both can't be true. IOW, the last trump precedes the GWTJ not equals it. In Revelation 20:11-15, the moment any of them rise they are instantly standing before God at the GWTJ.

This is simply not true of anyone that puts on bodily immortality in the twinkling of an at the last trump. Their next waking moment isn't the GWTJ, it is Revelation 19 and they being part of the armies formed seen coming with Christ in order to confront the beast and it's armies below.

But let's just ignore details like that and insist the moment they rise, the next moment they are standing in front of God at the GWTJ. Who cares whether anything recorded in Rev 19 ever gets fulfilled post the sounding of the last trump. Right?

Therefore, but I'm not going to go into details yet again, which would be a big waste of my time, but it is the sheep and goats judgment that explain both resurrections events in Daniel 12:2, not the GWTJ instead.

 

[IndianaRob]

Resurrection in every instance is always bodily from physical death to physical life. The graves that were opened after Christ physically resurrected are spiritual bodies of saints that were said to be asleep even though their bodies were physically dead in the graves. These saints of Old were not bodily resurrected, because that would force contradiction into the Bible. Because the Bible speaks only of ONE bodily resurrection for all who are in the graves, both those who have done good and those who have done bad.

Christ tells us these bodies of saints arose, not resurrected. Because the bodies of the saints arose a spiritual body, not flesh and bone that shall not be resurrected before the hour that is coming when the last/seventh trumpet begins to sound. The city they entered and were seen by many is Jerusalem above, heavenly Jerusalem where spirits of just men made perfect have spiritually gone when they were born again.

Daniel is not telling us when the resurrection would start. He would not have said they sleep in the dust of the earth, he would have written they physically died and were buried to return to dust of the earth.

When the physical body of mankind dies the flesh and bone return to the earth, but the spirit (breath of life) that gave the physical body life returns to God in heaven. For that reason the spiritual body of Christ (faithful physically dead saints) ascend to heaven a spiritual body after our flesh is dead, that's why we read of living souls in heaven after the body has died.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) ............ and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I don’t know how to be any clearer rwb. Paul explains the resurrection using a seed.

You’re version of the resurrection has the seed body that rots in the ground as being transformed into a new plant.

Have you ever grown a garden or planted fruit trees or any other kind of seed?

The seed you plant rots in the ground. I mean after a plant is up and growing you can still see the old seed body right there still in the ground rotting.

 

[Davidpt]

Resurrection in every instance is always bodily from physical death to physical life. The graves that were opened after Christ physically resurrected are spiritual bodies of saints that were said to be asleep even though their bodies were physically dead in the graves. These saints of Old were not bodily resurrected, because that would force contradiction into the Bible. Because the Bible speaks only of ONE bodily resurrection for all who are in the graves, both those who have done good and those who have done bad.

Christ tells us these bodies of saints arose, not resurrected. Because the bodies of the saints arose a spiritual body, not flesh and bone that shall not be resurrected before the hour that is coming when the last/seventh trumpet begins to sound. The city they entered and were seen by many is Jerusalem above, heavenly Jerusalem where spirits of just men made perfect have spiritually gone when they were born again.

Daniel is not telling us when the resurrection would start. He would not have said they sleep in the dust of the earth, he would have written they physically died and were buried to return to dust of the earth.

When the physical body of mankind dies the flesh and bone return to the earth, but the spirit (breath of life) that gave the physical body life returns to God in heaven. For that reason the spiritual body of Christ (faithful physically dead saints) ascend to heaven a spiritual body after our flesh is dead, that's why we read of living souls in heaven after the body has died.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) ............ and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Why do you want to to contradict the text in Matthew 27:52? It clearly says their physical bodies not their souls/spirits. If their physical bodies did not come out of their graves then neither did Christ's physical body come out of the grave. Except no Christian is going to argue that Christ's physical body did not come out of His tomb. To argue in one manner pertaining to Christ, and in different manner pertaining to the saints meant, is cherry picking, thus not being consistent throughout.

 

[IndianaRob]

That is a strange verse, while they came to life again, scripture does not tell us what happens to to them. They could have been taken up with Christ at His accession. Feels cruel to push them back into the grave.

Ephesians 4
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also [d]first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Matthew 27, they walked into the city, these saints of the OT
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Jesus remains on earth with His people 40 days after His resurrection, He would have talked with them and showed them these people raised up. What a witness to the power of the resurrection that was to all the people. Sending them back to the grave as He ascends, seems like not what happened. Some have suggested the cloud contained both angels and people...

I don’t know for sure but I strongly think they are the reason revelation says “but the rest of the dead lived not again….” I think they were the first group and anyone after them would be the second group. Just speculation right now though.

 

[Scott Downey]

I don’t know for sure but I strongly think they are the reason revelation says “but the rest of the dead lived not again….” I think they were the first group and anyone after them would be the second group. Just speculation right now though.

They certainly were resurrected. Coming out of their graves and walking into a city, having a body and appearing to many people. The Lord would have been with them. Also this, they would not be alone.
Hebrews 1
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

 

[Davidpt]

Many people in these forums label themselves partial preterits! I've not heard Rob call himself full Preterit, and in fact he has plainly said he is not.

In that case, I concede, thus take back what I wrongly was suspecting.. If @IndianaRob already indicated he is a partial Preterist, then that's good enough for me. His word should mean something. I see no reason why he would lie about it.

 

[IndianaRob]

In that case, I concede, thus take back what I wrongly was suspecting.. If @IndianaRob already indicated he is a partial Preterist, then that's good enough for me. His word should mean something. I see no reason why he would lie about it.

I want to set the record straight. I’m a nothing. I’m sure I would be called a full preterist by most people’s definition because I believe the second coming was the resurrection of Christ and I believe Jesus will return in the future to each individual to take them to heaven when it’s time to leave this world.

That being said, I don’t think you’ll find any full preterist that believes that way. From what I know about full preterism, they put lots of faith in the writings of Josephus and they believe Christ returned in 70 AD. I don’t believe any of that is biblical.

 

[David in NJ]

Both resurrection events recorded in Dan 12:2 indeed happen together, and that they happen when Christ initially returns. Except none of it is meaning Revelation 20:11-15 though.

When Rev 20:11-15 takes place, regardless when it takes place, the saved are already in immortal bodies that happen in a twinkling of an eye at the last trump. It is absurd that those that awake to everlasting life in Dan 12:2 that the moment they rise they are then instantly present at the great white throne judgment. Except when they rise, they don't rise in order to be present at the GWTJ, they rise at the last trump which precedes the GWTJ and that they put on bodily immortality at that time. Thus they are bodily alive and that Rev 20:11-15 is involving a judgment of the dead not a judgment of the living.

It is a contradiction to put on bodily immortality the moment you rise from the dead and in this same moment when you rise you are standing at the GWTJ at the same time. Both can't be true. IOW, the last trump precedes the GWTJ not equals it. In Revelation 20:11-15, the moment any of them rise they are instantly standing before God at the GWTJ.

This is simply not true of anyone that puts on bodily immortality in the twinkling of an at the last trump. Their next waking moment isn't the GWTJ, it is Revelation 19 and they being part of the armies formed seen coming with Christ in order to confront the beast and it's armies below.

But let's just ignore details like that and insist the moment they rise, the next moment they are standing in front of God at the GWTJ. Who cares whether anything recorded in Rev 19 ever gets fulfilled post the sounding of the last trump. Right?

Therefore, but I'm not going to go into details yet again, which would be a big waste of my time, but it is the sheep and goats judgment that explain both resurrections events in Daniel 12:2, not the GWTJ instead.

Rev 20:4 is when ALL in Christ are Resurrected = Daniel ch12 & Gospel

There is only One First Resurrection for ALL the dead in Christ = Daniel ch12 = Gospel = 1 Thess 4:13-18

 

[Davidpt]

Rev 20:4 is when ALL in Christ are Resurrected = Daniel ch12 & Gospel

There is only One First Resurrection for ALL the dead in Christ = Daniel ch12 = Gospel = 1 Thess 4:13-18

In Daniel 12:2 though, it is crystal clear from the text itself that not only do those that awake to everlasting life rise at that time, so do the ones that wake to everlasting shame. The text says 'many who sleep', not all who sleep. Therefore. some of them that rise at the time are the lost, but not all of the lost. The rest of the lost rise after the thousand years. Daniel 12:2 is meaning before the thousand years.

It is during the sheep and goats judgment when Christ returns when it is then revealed to the body of Christ who the saved are and who the wolves in sheep's clothing are. Obviously, there have been wolves in sheep's clothing throughout the past 2000 years. They too can't be revealed unless they rise from the dead first, then are judged at the sheep and goats judgment. Those found unworthy are sent to the LOF at that time. Those found worthy inherit the kingdom and enter into it at that time. But none of this is meaning Revelation 20:11-15 like Amils would have us believe.

 

[rwb]

I don’t know how to be any clearer rwb. Paul explains the resurrection using a seed.

You’re version of the resurrection has the seed body that rots in the ground as being transformed into a new plant.

Have you ever grown a garden or planted fruit trees or any other kind of seed?

The seed you plant rots in the ground. I mean after a plant is up and growing you can still see the old seed body right there still in the ground rotting.

Please post the verses you are referencing.

 

[David in NJ]

In Daniel 12:2 though, it is crystal clear from the text itself that not only do those that awake to everlasting life rise at that time, so do the ones that wake to everlasting shame. The text says 'many who sleep', not all who sleep. Therefore. some of them that rise at the time are the lost, but not all of the lost. The rest of the lost rise after the thousand years. Daniel 12:2 is meaning before the thousand years.

It is during the sheep and goats judgment when Christ returns when it is then revealed to the body of Christ who the saved are and who the wolves in sheep's clothing are. Obviously, there have been wolves in sheep's clothing throughout the past 2000 years. They too can't be revealed unless they rise from the dead first, then are judged at the sheep and goats judgment. Those found unworthy are sent to the LOF at that time. Those found worthy inherit the kingdom and enter into it at that time. But none of this is meaning Revelation 20:11-15 like Amils would have us believe.

Question:

Is Revelation subject to Daniel ch12?
or
Is Daniel ch12 subject to the Gospel, the Apostles writings and finally Revelation?

 

[rwb]

Why do you want to to contradict the text in Matthew 27:52?

If you believe the many bodies of saints which slept were physically resurrected three days after the cross when Christ physically resurrected from the grave, then the one forcing contradiction into the Bible is not me, but YOU! NONE shall be bodily resurrected from the graves until an hour coming when the last/seventh trumpet sounds. There is only ONE bodily resurrection to life, and according to Jo 6 that will be on the last day of this age.

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

It clearly says their physical bodies not their souls/spirits.

No, it does not speak of physical bodies. Christ tells us that "many bodies of the saints which slept (physically died) arose" but He does not say the bodies arose physically. There cannot have been a physical bodily resurrection three days after Christ resurrected from the dead. Because once again there shall be only one bodily resurrection on the last day of this age just as John 6 repeatedly says.

You need to stop trying to read your doctrine into the text and receive the test as it is written. If their physical bodies did not come out of their graves then neither did Christ's physical body come out of the grave.

If their physical bodies did not come out of their graves then neither did Christ's physical body come out of the grave. Except no Christian is going to argue that Christ's physical body did not come out of His tomb. To argue in one manner pertaining to Christ, and in different manner pertaining to the saints meant, is cherry picking, thus not being consistent throughout.

Christ was physically resurrected to immortal/incorruptible physical life. Because He has resurrected, we know with blessed assurance that we too shall be physically resurrected immortal and incorruptible to be like Him in an hour that is coming when the last/seventh trumpet sounds and time wherein man shall be saved shall be no longer. If Christ had not been the first resurrection (physically) from the grave, then according to Paul there would be no hope for anyone, we would all die in our sins.

 

[David in NJ]

If you believe the many bodies of saints which slept were physically resurrected three days after the cross when Christ physically resurrected from the grave, then the one forcing contradiction into the Bible is not me, but YOU!

Well you better tell the LORD that HE made a BIG MISTAKE resurrecting Lazurus.

 

[David in NJ]

Christ was physically resurrected to immortal/incorruptible physical life. Because He has resurrected, we know with blessed assurance that we too shall be physically resurrected immortal and incorruptible to be like Him in an hour that is coming when the last/seventh trumpet sounds and time wherein man shall be saved shall be no longer. If Christ had not been the first resurrection (physically) from the grave, then according to Paul there would be no hope for anyone, we would all die in our sins.

ALL TRUTH

 

[David in NJ]

You and others, just don't believe what is written...

This is too funny and sad at the same moment for the very thing you claim of "others" you do yourself!!!

 

[rwb]

They certainly were resurrected. Coming out of their graves and walking into a city, having a body and appearing to many people. The Lord would have been with them. Also this, they would not be alone.
Hebrews 1
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

Where is it biblically proven that the city these Old Covenant faithful saints went into is a physical city appearing to "many people"? How can you prove a bodily resurrection for these Old Covenant faithful saints without immortal/incorruptible physical body of flesh & bone? Why would they be bodily resurrected before the last day when Christ tells us shall be when the faithful dead are raised? There is not mention of being seen by many PEOPLE. Christ repeatedly tells us the faithful shall not be raised up before the last day.

John 6:39 (KJV) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40 (KJV) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 (KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 (KJV) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

What city did they go into? The city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem where all spirits of just men made perfect are found from the moment we have been born again.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[rwb]

Well you better tell the LORD that HE made a BIG MISTAKE resurrecting Lazurus.

Lazarus was physically resurrected to physically die again. Is that the resurrection faithful saints are patiently awaiting? Not me! I long for the resurrection that shall be on the last day, when the last/seventh trumpet sounds, when my mortal/corruptible flesh will be changed to immortal and incorruptible and time for this earth shall be no longer. Lazarus was bodily resurrected still mortal and corruptible in body still destined to grow old, sick and die again. It is through the resurrection of Lazarus that Christ shows us that faithful saints need not fear bodily death.