My understanding from the Catholic catechism is that Catholics are not saved yet. They are doing the works of catholicism towards that end.
I am not sure where I had posted that inferred or implied about specifically that every time a Catholic sinned, they become unsaved.
"Being saved" is probably why they think they are in the process of being saved when they are saved.
Hi JIF, sorry for delay.
This is what Catholics believe:
They were saved
They are being saved
They will be saved
There IS scripture for this, if you want it, I'll look for it.
They believe they ARE saved if they're not in a state of mortal sin (it's not easy to commit a mortal sin). Venial sins can be forgiven with no priest involved. There is purgatory to go through.
So, yes, you're right...they are saved while they are in the process of being saved...huh? IOW, if they died with no mortal sin, they'd be saved.
Penance that the priest gives after confession is not to shorten the stay in purgatory. Some priests don't even do this anymore. It's to make up for the sins commited. To make sure you're sorry for your sins and this doing of penance shows your sorrow to be true. You "do your penance" for having sinned.1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.....21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Isn't your understanding what the Catholic Church teaches about purgatory is how it is necessary to do penance to shorten one's stay in it for obtaining that salvation in getting into Heaven? That was what I had believed was taught by the CC.
penance
ˈpɛnəns/
noun
- 1.
punishment inflicted on oneself as an outward expression of repentance for wrongdoing.
"he had done public penance for those hasty words"
sinonimi: atonement, expiation, self-punishment, self-mortification, self-abasement, reparation, amends, penalty, punishment
There are partial indulgences and there are plenary indulgences that could abolish the stay in purgatory completely. This is a little complicated to get into and I doubt you care that much about it.
The Catholic church does not believe in eternal security.How do you apply Ephesians 4:30? Reads to me that the Holy Spirit is not going anywhere.
Then there is that promise from Jesus about not losing any one that the Father has given Him that believes in Him in John 6:38-40
I hope you remember that I'm not Catholic...BUT, I don't believe in eternal security either.
You're talking again about that situation I know nothing about.BUT that is not saying that every saved believer will be ready to inherit that celestial inheritance of being that vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper when the Bridegroom comes. Those left behind are still saved, but denied entrance to attend the Marriage Supper as they will be received later on of their inheritance after the great tribulation. This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that are still in His House because they are saved. See 2 Timothy 2:18-21 in how this call to depart from iniquity, also includes former believers as 2 Timothy 2:13 explains how.
Re Catholics though, they don't believe in the rapture either.
There is another explanation about this being left behind that some mainstream churches believe to be true..but that's another thread I guess.
I think a cafeteria catholic is someone that claims to be a catholic but does not adhere to the doctrine and rules of the Catholic church.Yes... I have heard that some Catholics say that they are saved, but devout Catholics that believe they are not saved yet would just treat the Catholics that believe that they are saved as "cafeteria Catholics" as only believing in parts of catholicism and not all of it from which then the Lord would call the Catholics that believe that they are saved to show their faith in Him that they are saved by leaving the Catholic Church. Otherwise... the devout Catholics cannot see that faith in Him when remaining in the Catholic Church as they are when that purpose is for obtaining the means of salvation within CC.
I'm not sure about what you're saying regarding leaving the church.
I had to leave because there was no spiritual food for me there.
Yes. I agree with the above of course, I'm just worried we're not understanding it the same way. It's the end of Romans 9 and 10 which is speaking about the Jews not accepting Jesus as Messiah.Grace is not of works, otherwise it is no longer grace.
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
They think their works will save them. The works UNDER THE LAW, NOT works UNDER GRACE or some call this Obedience of Faith.
We still have to do works for God, but we're no longer under the law but are under grace.
Amen to that.Mercy is not getting what we deserve and grace is getting what we do not deserve.
Agreed. It's just that you talk about the marriage supper and I'm looking to get to heaven -- not a supper!Salvation has been obtained by when you had first believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God had raised Him from the dead.
Running that race by looking to Jesus Christ, the author & finisher of our faith, to help us lay aside every weight & sin in seeking to be received by the Bridegroom as vessels unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper is the high prize of our calling.... not to obtain salvation by when Jesus Christ has saved us, but to be delivered from what is coming on the earth. See 2 Peter 3rd chapter at the link below in the KJV.
I'll check out the link.
Hmmm. Yes, I know we are already saved. I do think you thought I was Catholic...1 Peter 4:17-19 in the KJV testifies to how after God judges His House, Jesus Christ is faithful in keeping the souls of His saints that are left behind to suffer the coming fire on the earth and the eventual great tribulation as a result.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
So it is not about obtaining salvation, but acknowledging that we are saved as we look to Him as our Good Shepherd for living this reconciled relationship with God as our confidence and hopes are on Him to finish the race for us: Philippians 1:6
I went to the link, and it's only some verses in 2 Peter.
I also read Philippians. I gather you believe in eternal security.
If your point is different, please clarify.