National Covenant

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Enoch111

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If He has done so in the past, what is to prevent Him from doing so again?
The covenant with Israel was simply an extension of God's covenant with Abraham. The ultimate goal of that covenant was to bring Messiah/Christ into the world as a "seed" of Abraham and one who would fulfil the Old Covenant given through Moses. So Israel was given a very special place in God's plan of salvation.

Christ would be a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, Jesse, David, Solomon and Nathan, and both Joseph and Mary would trace their lineage back to Abraham. Here is why God chose Israel: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth (1) the adoption, and (2) the glory, and (3) the covenants, and (4) the giving of the law, and (5) the service of God, and (6) the promises; (7) Whose are the fathers [the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob] and (8) of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Rom 9:4,5)

Now that the New Covenant has been ratified with the blood of Christ (the blood of God), there will be no other covenants with any nation or individual. God now commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent (Acts 17:30,31)
 
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covenantee

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On the contrary, Paul indicated that the new covenant actually *confirmed* the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the OT era.

The New Covenant is only for those who are in Christ.

If you are not in Christ, there is no New Covenant, and no New Covenant promises, for you.

One of those promises were made on behalf of the *nation* of Israel.

Where does the word "nation" appear?

Another of those promises concerned *nations* that would share the faith of Abraham.

Where does the word "nation" appear?
 

Randy Kluth

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The covenant with Israel was simply an extension of God's covenant with Abraham. The ultimate goal of that covenant was to bring Messiah/Christ into the world as a "seed" of Abraham and one who would fulfil the Old Covenant given through Moses. So Israel was given a very special place in God's plan of salvation.

Christ would be a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, Jesse, David, Solomon and Nathan, and both Joseph and Mary would trace their lineage back to Abraham. Here is why God chose Israel: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth (1) the adoption, and (2) the glory, and (3) the covenants, and (4) the giving of the law, and (5) the service of God, and (6) the promises; (7) Whose are the fathers [the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob] and (8) of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Rom 9:4,5)

Now that the New Covenant has been ratified with the blood of Christ (the blood of God), there will be no other covenants with any nation or individual. God now commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent (Acts 17:30,31)

I *never* said NT covenants were "other covenants!" They are the New Covenant of Christ activating the promises God made to Abraham, regarding the nation of Israel and regarding the nations promised to have the faith of Abraham.

The same Israel destined to produce the Christ also inherited the "promises." And those promises guarantee the everlasting existence of the nation Israel--as long as mortal man remains upon the earth.

As well, Christ came to guarantee the promise made to Abraham that he would have "many nations." All of these promises are fulfilled by the New Covenant of Christ.
 

Randy Kluth

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The New Covenant is only for those who are in Christ.

If that was true, who would be saved? How many were "in Christ" before they got saved? So if they were called *before they were saved,* then the promises were given concerning those who were not yet "in Christ!"

God was calling into existence things that had not yet come to be "in Christ."

Heb 11.3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Where does the word "nation" appear?

I've given you the verses. I'm not going to keep quoting them for you. The word "Israel" implies a "nation."
 

covenantee

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If that was true, who would be saved? How many were "in Christ" before they got saved? So if they were called *before they were saved,* then the promises were given concerning those who were not yet "in Christ!"

God was calling into existence things that had not yet come to be "in Christ."

Heb 11.3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.



I've given you the verses. I'm not going to keep quoting them for you. The word "Israel" implies a "nation."

I'm having difficulty trying to follow your logic.

So let's take an alternate tack and (re)confirm who you think comprises Israel.

After more than three millennia of natural genetic dispersion and diffusion, Abraham's genome is present in the entirety of humanity, and thus physical DNA does not determine the identity of Israel.

So what does?

Spiritual DNA.

Faith and obedience.

Nothing else.
 
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Keraz

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Are the Jews God's chosen people?

Due to poor and erroneous Church teachings, many people are confused about who exactly are God's people.

Are the Jews still God's people today? Are there any prophecies or commands of God as to how Christians are to deal with them? Are the things happening in Palestine any indication of the coming of Jesus? What about the inheritance of Israel and who will receive it?

The Bible is clear on the subject and it is important to us. We must remember that the term "Jew" as used in the gospels is mostly used to denote the religious leaders of Jesus time. Other terms were used when speaking of the people, such as: the common people heard him gladly. Mark 12:37 We should also keep in mind that the early church was almost entirely Jewish. For over three years the gospel went throughout Jerusalem and Judea before it went to the Gentiles. The three thousand added to the church on the day of Pentecost were Jewish people.


Romans 11:2-22.. Paul says that Israel is not totally cast away and points to himself as evidence. He became a follower of Christ and he worked for the salvation of the Jews all through his ministry, even though he was the apostle to the Gentiles. In verse 7 he says "Israel has not obtained what it seeks." Then in verses 19-22 where he is talking about Christians being grafted into their olive tree, he says: Branches were broken off that you might be grafted in. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

The words; did not spare is evidence that as a nation he considered the Jews no longer God's people. As individuals they can still have salvation; as individuals they are no different from anyone else. As a nation, too, they are no different, just the normal, worldly state, trying to attain prosperity for their people.
 

Eternally Grateful

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The Covenant that has not failed is the New Covenant in the Blood of Christ, its Testator and Heir.

None other.
You or correct.

The covenant with Israel through abraham will not fail. Paul said all Israel will be saved when the redeemer returns. He warns us gentiles not to boast in pride.. thinking God is done with them
 

Eternally Grateful

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I believe there is a mix of prophecy and Law in that passage. If Israel repented, after failing, they would be restored to the Law of Moses--even if they are cast out of their land for a time.
Paul told them and us the law was to lead them and us to christ. After that, the law is no longer needed.

The law never saved anyone, that was their mistake and why they rejected jesus.
In principle God will also forgiven Israel after having been cast out of their land, even if the temple Law is no longer needed. So prophetically, restoration is always available in this life, both for Israel and for us all.
I agree, forgiveness is always available.

But Gods covenant with his chosen people and their city will never fail.

Christ himself will rule the world from a future temple in Jerusalem. And the nations (us) will visit him once a year. What a glorious time that will be
 

Charlie24

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Paul told them and us the law was to lead them and us to christ. After that, the law is no longer needed.

The law never saved anyone, that was their mistake and why they rejected jesus.

I agree, forgiveness is always available.

But Gods covenant with his chosen people and their city will never fail.

Christ himself will rule the world from a future temple in Jerusalem. And the nations (us) will visit him once a year. What a glorious time that will be

Paul calls it an "everlasting Covenant." It cannot fail as did the first covenant.

His covenant is with the Man Jesus Christ, and the only way to get in for us is through the Man Jesus Christ.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Paul calls it an "everlasting Covenant." It cannot fail as did the first covenant.

His covenant is with the Man Jesus Christ, and the only way to get in for us is through the Man Jesus Christ.
The first covenant was the abrahamic covenant.

The mosaic covenant was not part of that covenant, But in that covenant was given provisions for Israel to be blessed bu the part of the first covenant which related to them and only them

Lev 26..

They are being punished today still because of their unbelief. But scripture says there will be a day when God take the stick of Judah and the Stick of Israel and bring them together into the land, they will stop their sins, confess their sins, and be restored.

We should praise God he is a God who keeps his covenants.
 

Charlie24

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The first covenant was the abrahamic covenant.

The mosaic covenant was not part of that covenant, But in that covenant was given provisions for Israel to be blessed bu the part of the first covenant which related to them and only them

Lev 26..

They are being punished today still because of their unbelief. But scripture says there will be a day when God take the stick of Judah and the Stick of Israel and bring them together into the land, they will stop their sins, confess their sins, and be restored.

We should praise God he is a God who keeps his covenants.

Yes, Israel is being punished. When they said, "let the blood of this Man be on us and our children," they got what they asked for.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Yes, Israel is being punished. When they said, "let the blood of this Man be on us and our children," they got what they asked for.
They have been being punished since Babylon, because they did not obey Gods commands, and played with idols. That is why they have been under Gentile rul since then, Even in the time of Christ they were under Gentile rule (rome) and it will remain until the time of the gentile is completed and christ returns.

Daniel prayed for their restoration. They never recieved it, they were allowed back in the land as slaves and prisoners to rebuild the temple and set up Christs entrance. But they were never restored.
 

Charlie24

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They have been being punished since Babylon, because they did not obey Gods commands, and played with idols. That is why they have been under Gentile rul since then, Even in the time of Christ they were under Gentile rule (rome) and it will remain until the time of the gentile is completed and christ returns.

Daniel prayed for their restoration. They never recieved it, they were allowed back in the land as slaves and prisoners to rebuild the temple and set up Christs entrance. But they were never restored.

But looking ahead they will be restored. Zechariah said they will mourn as one mourns for their only son, when they see Him.

Finally they will know that they have crucified the Son of God. The New Covenant awaits them with open arms.
 

covenantee

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You or correct.

The covenant with Israel through abraham will not fail. Paul said all Israel will be saved when the redeemer returns. He warns us gentiles not to boast in pride.. thinking God is done with them
Paul identifies "all Israel".

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Paul told them and us the law was to lead them and us to christ. After that, the law is no longer needed.

I was referring to the fact that this particular prophecy in the Pentateuch focused on restoration to the Law, and in principle implies that restoration is always possible, whether under the system of Law or not. I was referring to the real history of Israel, following the Babylonian exile, in which many Jews returned to the land of Israel and rebuilt their temple, reinstituting the practice of the Mosaic Law. This has nothing to do with Christ superseding the Law of Moses.

The law never saved anyone, that was their mistake and why they rejected jesus.

You seem to be marginalizing the value of the Law during its time, even though God Himself set it up and King David lauded it (Psalm 119)? Many Christians misunderstand Paul's statements in this regard, falsely thinking he was depreciating the Law when he wasn't. What he did was depreciate the efforts of many Jews in continuing under the system of Law after it had already been superseded by Christ. He did not, however, condemn the Jews for doing so when they did so in ignorance--his aim was to save them through preaching the Gospel to them.

The Law could not provide eternal redemption, which is available only through Christ. Since Christ had not yet come in the OT era, God provided a temporary outlet for faith and redemption in the sacrifices of the Law. They in fact produced righteousness that ultimately would be completed by Christ's death.

I agree, forgiveness is always available.

But Gods covenant with his chosen people and their city will never fail.

Christ himself will rule the world from a future temple in Jerusalem. And the nations (us) will visit him once a year. What a glorious time that will be

I don't think there will be a future temple in Jerusalem, but who knows? Otherwise, I agree with you--Israel will be restored.
 

Randy Kluth

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I'm having difficulty trying to follow your logic.

My logic is not difficult to follow. What is difficult is trying to justify two different, contradictory views at the same time. You say the New Covenant cannot apply to Israel because it is a non-Christian country. I'm saying the New Covenant can apply to all countries, including Israel, because that's how nations convert to Christianity.

So let's take an alternate tack and (re)confirm who you think comprises Israel.

After more than three millennia of natural genetic dispersion and diffusion, Abraham's genome is present in the entirety of humanity, and thus physical DNA does not determine the identity of Israel.

So what does?

Spiritual DNA.

Faith and obedience.

Nothing else.

I've never said DNA exclusively determines what nation God proposed to provide for Abraham. The promise was to select his biological heirs and form them into a country in the land of Canaan. Those people, the Jews, are established from history. There is no need to do DNA tests, since these people have a long history originating from this country and holding to the culture they developed.
 

covenantee

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I've never said DNA exclusively determines what nation God proposed to provide for Abraham. The promise was to select his biological heirs and form them into a country in the land of Canaan. Those people, the Jews, are established from history. There is no need to do DNA tests, since these people have a long history originating from this country and holding to the culture they developed.

Today everyone is a Jew genetically.

So how does God distinguish Jews from Jews?
 
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covenantee

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You say the New Covenant cannot apply to Israel because it is a non-Christian country.

I have no idea where you get that from. Provide a verbatim quote where I've said that.

Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

That includes Israel.

But note that it is not national, but individual ("in every nation he that feareth him").
 

Keraz

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I've never said DNA exclusively determines what nation God proposed to provide for Abraham. The promise was to select his biological heirs and form them into a country in the land of Canaan. Those people, the Jews, are established from history. There is no need to do DNA tests, since these people have a long history originating from this country and holding to the culture they developed.
Wrong. The Promise was for the faithful peoples to be gathered and to live in all of the holy Land, as God always wanted His people be; His witnesses and the Light to the nations.
Asa for the history of the Jews:
The Jews are of many racial origins:

1. THE ASHKENAZIM JEWS

Some claim a link between Edom and the Khazars, but apart from that there is more than one
identity calling themselves “Jews”; none of these have claim to the name ‘Israel’.. Regarding
the Ashkenazim Jews who speak Yiddish, most dictionaries and encyclopaedia define
Ashkenazim in words like after ‘Ashkenaz’, the second son of Gomer. This confirms
Scripture concerning the sons of Noah, [Shem, Japheth and Ham], and their offspring:

2. THE KHAZAR JEWS

The Khazars claimed descent from Japheth, and from their adoption of Judaism, they became
known as Jews. But they did not descend from Shem, and therefore they are not Semitic in
origin. To relate the term “anti-Semitism” to Jews of this origin is nonsense and part of the
great deception! Eastern European Jews of this origin have no Israelite connection. Anti-
Semitism could not apply to them! These are the majority in the Israeli state.

3. THE SEPHARDIM JEWS

The American People’s Encyclopaedia, 1925, indicates that these people descended from
Edomites who were cast out of Palestine by Prince Titus in AD 70. From thence they spread
to North Africa and to Spain converting Berber Tribes and others to Judaism. There were
Cardinals and Popes who were Sephardim Jews. They have no simple blood line, being
Edomites diluted with Syrian, Canaanite, Phoenician and North African blood.

4. THE SEPHARDIM / ASHKENAZIM JEWISH MIXTURE

It is impossible to determine the degree of intermarriage between these two groups of non-
Israelites, but there is evidence that this has been common.

5. THE ETHIOPIAN DESCENDANTS OF HAM [The Falashas]

These are known as “Jews” because of acceptance of Judaism. The Encyclopaedia Judaica
states:
The joke here is that Ham, as a son of Noah, was not a black man. It is amazing that these
people, who are supposed to be the educated and erudite, could make such a stupid statement.

6. BABYLONIAN and PROSELYTE JEWS

In the days of Mordecai and Esther - many who obviously were not of Judah took up Judaism
These are people from almost every race on earth. They became known as Jews because of religious spirit and belief in Judaism.

8. THE SHEMITE DESCENDANTS OF ESAU

These people also known as Edomites and some other names in Scripture. Historically, and
Biblically, most of these were made proselytes to Judaism and became known as “Jews”.

Anyone who wants to identify the Jews as “Israel” is not speaking about the true Israel of
God, as defined in the Bible. If we have another Israel, we have another gospel. But the
same people will insist that Jews of much racial mixture are a single race when they are not.
They want it both ways.
The term Ioudaios [Judean] is wrongly accepted as the “racial” term Ioudas [Jew] when
reading the New Testament and is the root of the misunderstanding. The use of the territorial
term, Judean, is not a measure of race, although some Israelites were amongst the proselytes
to Judaism in Judea.

The word, “Jews”, cannot always be taken in the way that is commonly accepted. Modern
international Jewry is primarily of Edomic or Japheth/Ashkenazim or Sephardim origin, and
the Jewish Encyclopaedia states that Edom is modern Jewry. Edomites are not Israelites; it
was Esau who sold his birthright. The descendants of Japheth cannot be ethnic Israelites. Neither
are “Jews” of other races Israelites by race.

Modern Jewry relates to Edom, Zionism, World Government and the Israeli state, but not to
Biblical Israel. At the end of the age it will be the Edomite-Jewish association with their
Babylonic enmity that will be burned by fire. Obadiah 1:16-18; Rev 18:6-8

But there is a final twist declared in Encyclopedia Judaica 1971, 10, column 23:
“JEWS BEGAN IN THE 19TH CENTURY TO CALL THEMSELVES HEBREWS AND ISRAELITES IN 1860.
This coincides with the cry, “anti-Semitism”.. If Zionists began so late in history to pretend
that they were Israelites or Hebrews, this confirms the hoax that claims “The Jews” are the
Israel of God. Ref: A.E.Kennedy
 

Randy Kluth

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I have no idea where you get that from. Provide a verbatim quote where I've said that.

post #24: The New Covenant is only for those who are in Christ.

Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

That includes Israel.

But note that it is not national, but individual ("in every nation he that feareth him").

That is not saying a thing about God making covenant with nations or individuals! What are you hoping to prove in our discussion?