National Covenant

[Randy Kluth]

Wrong. The Promise was for the faithful peoples to be gathered and to live in all of the holy Land, as God always wanted His people be; His witnesses and the Light to the nations.

I see no quote to support this? Abraham's biological heirs were promised to dwell in the Holy Land. And when they did so, it was declared that they had fulfilled the Abrahamic Promise. So you're wrong from the start.

Asa for the history of the Jews:
The Jews are of many racial origins:

I said the DNA was started in the initial development of the Hebrew people. From that time on, a culture and a people evolved in the land of Canaan and became "Israel." We know who these people are--we don't need a DNA test.

 

[covenantee]

That is not saying a thing about God making covenant with nations or individuals!

"But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

"him" means God.
"accepted" means a covenant.
"every nation" means nations.
"he" means individuals.

What more do you need to know?

 

[Ronald D Milam]

It's surprising, from an historical pov, that so many on these forums and elsewhere utterly reject any notion of God making covenants with nations today. Clearly, God made a covenant with the nation Israel during the period of the Mosaic Law. That covenant failed, even as the original promise God made to Abraham persisted in connection with Israel.

The Covenant was with Abraham and his descendants, and that covenant would bring firth a Messiah in which the whole world would be blessed. That calling is WITHOUT REPENTANCE. God will keep His promises unto Abraham, not because of Israel but in spite of Israel, so says God, He does it only for His own names sake, that means because He promised Abraham that his seed would have a perpetual seed on this earth.

The Covenant was THE PROMISE, not the Law.

 

[Randy Kluth]

"But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

"him" means God.
"accepted" means a covenant.
"every nation" means nations.
"he" means individuals.

What more do you need to know?

That is not saying a thing about God making covenant with nations or individuals!

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Covenant was with Abraham and his descendants, and that covenant would bring firth a Messiah in which the whole world would be blessed. That calling is WITHOUT REPENTANCE. God will keep His promises unto Abraham, not because of Israel but in spite of Israel, so says God, He does it only for His own names sake, that means because He promised Abraham that his seed would have a perpetual seed on this earth.

The Covenant was THE PROMISE, not the Law.

I like what you say, except I'm not sure what you're implying. The Covenant of Moses and the Covenant of Christ both contained promises that God *must* keep. God keeps His word because He is omnipotent, and always does what He says He will do.

When God promised Abraham a nation in Canaan, He intended to keep that promise. The Law was a covenant that failed, and Israel was cursed. But God would still keep His promise, restoring Israel.

 

[Keraz]

I see no quote to support this? Abraham's biological heirs were promised to dwell in the Holy Land. And when they did so, it was declared that they had fulfilled the Abrahamic Promise. So you're wrong from the start.

The Caucasian peoples of the Western nations ARE the ethnic descendants of Abraham. There Is historical, archaeological, heraldic and traditions which prove the 10 Northern tribes migrated across Europe. They left waymarks still extant today. Jeremiah 31:21
We Christians are also the Spiritual descendants of Abraham; Galatians 3:26-29

We know who these people are--we don't need a DNA test.

Jesus knows them too, He said they belong to the synagogue of Satan and as rejectors of Him, they are not true Jews at all. Romans 2:29

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Caucasian peoples of the Western nations ARE the ethnic descendants of Abraham. There Is historical, archaeological, heraldic and traditions which prove the 10 Northern tribes migrated across Europe. They left waymarks still extant today. Jeremiah 31:21
We Christians are also the Spiritual descendants of Abraham; Galatians 3:26-29

Jesus knows them too, He said they belong to the synagogue of Satan and as rejectors of Him, they are not true Jews at all. Romans 2:29

I disagree with you because we don't trace the 10 lost tribes by DNA. Rather, we trace Hebrew culture by the people that retain that culture. The 10 lost tribes are lost, and mixed in with many peoples, as you suggest. They are no longer relevant as Hebrew heirs.

On the other hand, the Jewish People returned from Babylon, were dispersed by the Romans, and continued to retain their Jewish culture. We know who they are. They aren't "lost." And they are the ones who have returned to Israel. They are the heirs of Abraham's biological nation, Israel.

We're not going to reconcile on this because our arguments are different. Sorry, brother. It is what it is.

 

[Randy Kluth]

"But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

"him" means God.
"accepted" means a covenant.
"every nation" means nations.
"he" means individuals.

What more do you need to know?

The statement says *nothing* about a *covenant.* "Accepted" does not mean "covenant" unless a covenant is specifically implied. That is not the case.

 

[covenantee]

The statement says *nothing* about a *covenant.* "Accepted" does not mean "covenant" unless a covenant is specifically implied. That is not the case.

Why do you think that God would refuse to Covenant with someone who fears Him and works righteousness and is accepted by Him?

Someone who is described thus has certainly met His Covenant conditions.

And is therefore in Covenant with Him.

That verse in fact explicitly describes a Covenant.

We do our part, fearing God and working righteousness.

He does His part, extending His acceptance to us.

That's a Covenant.

I would be more than interested to see just one example from Scripture of someone fearing God and working righteousness and being accepted by Him...

...But being refused His Covenant.

Just one example.

 

[Keraz]

They are no longer relevant as Hebrew heirs.

Tell that to God! Amos 9:9

On the other hand, the Jewish People returned from Babylon, were dispersed by the Romans, and continued to retain their Jewish culture. We know who they are. They aren't "lost." And they are the ones who have returned to Israel. They are the heirs of Abraham's biological nation, Israel.

Who it is that have returned to a small part of the holy Land; are the Zionists, a diverse group of peoples who espouse communism, who reject Jesus and most - deny even God. They rely on their own strength for safety, but many prophesies say that the Lord will Judge and punish them. leaving only a remnant of those who have become Christians now.
I will give the Land to new owners:

Zephaniah 3:1-8 Woe to the place of oppression, filthy and defiled, they heed no warning voice and ignore God’s rebukes. They won’t take correction or place their trust in their Creator. Their leaders have no concern for the people and prophet and priest alike profane the Holy Scriptures.
The people who ‘won’t take correction and trust their Creator’, is the Jewish State of Israel.

The Lord has judged and punished them before, their land laid waste and the towns deserted and He thought: surely now they will fear Me and will accept instruction, but they continue on in their evil deeds and they show no shame for it.
Judah has been punished and exiled before; by Babylon and by Rome. But as Ezekiel 21:14 tells us, there will be a third time.

Therefore: look out for Me, for the Day when I will stand up to witness against you, on the Day that I execute justice upon the nations, for I will pour out My fierce anger and the whole earth will be enveloped by the fire of My wrath.
This will be the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and fiery wrath against the nations. Prophesied in the Bible over 100 times. Habakkuk 3:12 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17, +


Zephaniah 3:11-13 On that Day, Jerusalem, I shall wipe away your shame for all the transgressions committed in you, for I shall remove all your proud and arrogant citizens, only the humble and peaceful people will remain and those who never practise evil or speak lies, they will settle in the Land and nothing will disturb them.
This is the great Second Exodus of all of God’s people into all of the holy Land. Every faithful Christian: a vast multitude from every tribe, race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18-21, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Romans 9:24=26, Revelation 7:9 and the amazing stories in Psalms 107.


Zephaniah 3:9-10 They will all know a pure language, so everyone will know the true Name of the Lord and will praise Him with one accord. My worshippers, all the righteous people will come from afar to worship the Lord and bring offerings to Him. People from every race, nation and language, all the born again Christian people, will travel there to live, in the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, while the rest of the world is ruled by a One World Government. Daniel 7:23, Revelation 17:12

Zephaniah 3:14-17 Daughter of Jerusalem; sing for joy! For the Lord has taken away your punishments and has cast out your enemies. Now the Lord is with you and you need never again fear disaster.

On the Day of the Lord’s wrath; This is the message for My people: Fear not, stand firm in your faith, your God will keep you safe and will rejoice over you.
Ref: REB, CJB, KJV. Some verses condensed and paraphrased.


This chapter of Zephaniah encapsulates the soon to happen end times story.
It tells how Jerusalem, the holy Land is denigrated by its ungodly inhabitants and will rejoice when they are gone. How those enemies of the Lord, the evil neighbors, Jeremiah 12:14, and all who reject the Salvation of Jesus, will be uprooted and gone, then the holy Land resettled by the Lord’s faithful believers. Ezekiel 34:11-31 tells it plainly.

Jeremiah 7:30-34 & 8:1-13 The people of Judah have done wrong, they worship idols and have no regard for their Creator....Therefore, the time is coming when I shall fill the valley of Topeth with their corpses.......All the survivors of this wicked race, from wherever I have banished them, would rather die than live. Isaiah 22:14
...Judah is incurable in their waywardness......I listen, but I hear not one word of remorse ....My people do not know the Judgements of the Lord. How can you say: We are wise and we have the Law of God, when your scribes and priests have falsified it? The wise are shamed and where is wisdom in them?
Therefore I will give their wives to others and give their land to new owners, for all of their prophets and priests are frauds....on My Day of reckoning, they will fall with a great crash. I shall surely consume them says the Lord and there will be no grapes on the vine, [Israel] and no figs on the fig tree. [Judah]

We Christians are told by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:4-5, that we should know God’s plans for what will happen in the near future. Zephaniah 3 gives it to us, confirmed by the sequence of Revelation chapters 6-7.

What is presented to you in these scriptures, is God’s Promises to His faithful people, His blessings of peace and prosperity, of joy and happiness, of security and long life, as all who love Him and keep the Commandments; will live in His Land.
It is the prophetic parallel of ancient Israel, where Jesus led the people through the desert and how most of them refused to accept the Promise. 1 Corinthians 10:6-13

Ezekiel 20:34-38 tells how, once again, some of His people will revolt and rebel and they will not be allowed to enter the Land of Israel.

In today’s situation, we have many who have accepted the Gospel, but who have chosen their own beliefs about what God intends to do for His people and during this forthcoming test, 1 Peter 4:12, they may fail to stand firm in their trust that the Lord will protect them. This won’t lose their salvation, but it will be a serious disadvantage, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

As the great chapter of Isaiah 35:1-10, one of the many prophesies that describe the Lord’s faithful Christian people entering the holy Land, says: ...no one unclean will go there....The Lord’s people, set free: will enter Zion with shouts of triumph.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why do you think that God would refuse to Covenant with someone who fears Him and works righteousness and is accepted by Him?

Someone who is described thus has certainly met His Covenant conditions.

And is therefore in Covenant with Him.

That verse in fact explicitly describes a Covenant.

Please quote where this is explicitly stated--not just your own logic or opinion?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Tell that to God! Amos 9:9

Who it is that have returned to a small part of the holy Land; are the Zionists, a diverse group of peoples who espouse communism, who reject Jesus and most - deny even God. They rely on their own strength for safety, but many prophesies say that the Lord will Judge and punish them. leaving only a remnant of those who have become Christians now.

I don't care how many times you want to criticize Israel as not being Christian. Every nation of the world is essentially pagan before they embrace a Christian culture. What do you expect to accomplish by proving that Israel is not Christian?

 

[covenantee]

Please quote where this is explicitly stated--not just your own logic or opinion?

I would be more than interested to see you provide just one example from Scripture of someone fearing God and working righteousness and being accepted by Him...

...But being refused His Covenant.

Just one example.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I would be more than interested to see you provide just one example from Scripture of someone fearing God and working righteousness and being accepted by Him...

...But being refused His Covenant.

Just one example.

You made a statement and said it was explicit, and yet refuse to provide the quote. You said, "That verse in fact explicitly describes a Covenant." Where is that found? If you don't have proof for what you say, don't make statements that you claim are "explicit," when in reality, it is just your assumption.

 

[Keraz]

I don't care how many times you want to criticize Israel as not being Christian.

It is the Lord who says the House of Judah will be punished and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13, Matthew 8:11-12, +

Your belief of a general Jewish redemption is never prophesied to happen. It is taught as a vital part of the 'rapture to heaven' theory. Both ideas are false and will not happen.

What do you expect to accomplish by proving that Israel is not Christian?

Only the faithful believers in Jesus are Christians, God has no favourite's.

Who are the people that will re-inhabit the holy Land after all that area is cleared and cleansed by the Day of the Lord’s wrath? Zephaniah 1:1-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Revelation 6:12-17, +

They will be the true Israelites of God, those who come to live in the new country of Beulah, [Isaiah 62:1-5] cannot be those who are apostate or of any sort of deviant personality. But there must be many left alive in the world who will credit the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath to a natural event and continue on in their disbelief of a Creator God. They will form a One World Govt, as prophesied.

Ezekiel 20:37-38 is the best scripture that tells how the Lord will gather all Israel, then judge them and those who ‘revolt and rebel’, will not enter the Land. Jeremiah 5:26-29
Amos 9:10…the sinners of My people will die by the sword… Isaiah 65:11-12
Isaiah 35:8-10…no one unclean will travel along the ‘Way of Holiness’ into Zion.

As we see in Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7, it is the ‘holy ones of the Most High’ who are present in the Land during the end time events.

Unfortunately it is evident that the new Israelites go to some extent along the same path as their ancestors and in their prosperity, begin to fall away from the true faith in the Lord as their protector and they agree to a peace treaty with the AC. What the Lord thinks about this is in Isaiah 28:14-20 It seems that verses 21-22 refer to the great Tribulation.

The rest of the world’s nations will be under the One World Government, a ten region entity governed by councils each headed by a President. They will soon confer their power and authority onto one charismatic leader, Revelation 17:13

So then, unrighteous and evil people will be present on earth, as well as the Christian peoples; right up until the Return of Jesus. Then, many prophesies say how the wicked are doomed.
But Satan will be released at the end of the 1000 years and he will ‘seduce the nations’ for the one last time. This will sort out those who have kept their faith and those who rebel for the last earthly judgement.

For us, knowing how important it is to keep firm hold onto trusting the Lord for our protection during the forthcoming traumatic times ahead, it is a matter of life or death- Life eternal with Jesus or Death; eventual total annihilation.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It is the Lord who says the House of Judah will be punished and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13, Matthew 8:11-12, +

Your belief of a general Jewish redemption is never prophesied to happen. It is taught as a vital part of the 'rapture to heaven' theory. Both ideas are false and will not happen.

You are entirely inaccurate in that. Belief in the "Hope of Israel" existed in the Early Church, well before Dispensationalism came into existence. You throw out charges without thinking, apparently?

Only the faithful believers in Jesus are Christians, God has no favourite's.

Who are the people that will re-inhabit the holy Land after all that area is cleared and cleansed by the Day of the Lord’s wrath? Zephaniah 1:1-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Revelation 6:12-17, +

They will be the true Israelites of God, those who come to live in the new country of Beulah, [Isaiah 62:1-5] cannot be those who are apostate or of any sort of deviant personality. But there must be many left alive in the world who will credit the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath to a natural event and continue on in their disbelief of a Creator God. They will form a One World Govt, as prophesied.

You are basing your belief on the false notion that judged and ungodly nations cannot be restored. And yet, the Prophets predicted the restoration of Israel exactly after such circumstances. I need not quote them again, since you just continue to make these un substantiated claims.

The rest of the world’s nations will be under the One World Government, a ten region entity governed by councils each headed by a President. They will soon confer their power and authority onto one charismatic leader, Revelation 17:13

I have no idea whether Antichrist and his 10 nation confederation will be a "one-world govt." That he will command allegiance world-wide in clearly stated, though these may be only pockets of people sprinkled throughout the world. I believe the fact he has only 10 nations in a world with about 200 nations indicates to me he is not a one-world govt.

 

[covenantee]

You made a statement and said it was explicit, and yet refuse to provide the quote. You said, "That verse in fact explicitly describes a Covenant." Where is that found? If you don't have proof for what you say, don't make statements that you claim are "explicit," when in reality, it is just your assumption.

Do you believe that God hates sin?

I do. But the explicit statement "God hates sin" is not found in Scripture.

So obviously that's just an assumption or opinion. And so it's possible that God actually loves sin.

I hope you aren't one of the dispensational desecrators who deny that the New Covenant becomes an immediate extant reality in every individual who accepts Christ.

Are you?

I consider it to be a self-evident truth that when I've accepted Him, and He has accepted me, then I immediately enter into a New Covenant relationship with Him.

If you don't believe that, then explain what you do or do not believe about His acceptance and its association with His New Covenant.

 

[covenantee]

You made a statement and said it was explicit, and yet refuse to provide the quote. You said, "That verse in fact explicitly describes a Covenant." Where is that found? If you don't have proof for what you say, don't make statements that you claim are "explicit," when in reality, it is just your assumption.

The New Covenant.

Our part.

Ephesians 1
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

His part.

Ephesians 1
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

 

[Davy]

Yes, the fact the nation turned to apostasy was predicted from the outset. That has nothing to do with whether God *made* the covenant with Israel to begin with! How can you break a covenant if one wasn't made to begin with?

What you're actually pointing to is about God's Birthright. You're calling it a separate covenant when it's not. It's about His Promises to a certain people, the seed of Israel and non-Israelites, together under Christ Jesus.

Just as flesh fathers have birthrights to their firstborn sons, so likewise God has a Birthright through a particular seed.

1 Chron 5:1-2
1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.

2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's:)
KJV


What is that Birthright about? Joseph received it from his father Jacob, and Jacob received it from his father Isaac, and Isaac received it from his father Abraham. But it is not something they created themselves, its origin is directly from God Himself.

The Promises that God first gave Abraham, which include many blessings, also included what? The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Apostle Paul said The Gospel was preached to Abraham per Galatians 3 and Romans 4. Abraham believed God, and God counted Abraham's Faith as righteousness. And thus those of Faith have become the children of Abraham, according to Apostle Paul.

Follow The Gospel, and the Promises are revealed there, and that definitely is about the western Christian nations and their allies that believe on Jesus Christ.

Thusly per 1 Chronicles 5, the seed of Judah is to keep the royal rule, but Joseph's sons are to have the Birthright blessings, which are...

1. God promised all the families of the earth would be blessed through Abraham. This Apostle Paul shows is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ. At the end of John 8, Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see His day, and was glad. That is a direct pointer that Abraham was aware of the Promise by Faith which is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Hebrews 7 even reveals that Lord Jesus was the Melchizedek that met Abraham.

2. Abraham's seed would be as many as the stars of the sky and sands of the sea. This isn't just applied to anyone descended from Abraham's loins. God said He would make His covenant specifically with Abraham's son Isaac, not Ishmael. It is also about the seed that The Gospel of Jesus Christ would be sent to, the lost sheep of the house of Israel. The label "house of Israel" after the split of 1 Kings 11 was only about the ten tribe northern kingdom of Israelites that were scattered out of the holy land, never to return.

3. Abraham's seed through Isaac is to possess the gate of their enemies. This idea of a gate could refer to the Panama and Suez canals, Straights of Gibraltar. It means a strategic control of one's enemies ability to pass through a gate. Does this fit the modern nation of Israel? No. Where then? (I think I gave a big enough hint already). This promise was passed on to Isaac also (Genesis 24:60). This also means a world military power. That doesn't apply to today's nation state of Israel. Who then?

4. Isaac had two sons, Esau and Jacob. Esau was the elder, so the Birthright was to go to him. Before the children were born, Rebekah had a stir in her womb and prayed about it. God told her two manner of people were in her womb, and the younger would rule over the elder. So the Birthright per God's plan was to go to Jacob all along. And it did, even though there was a bit a chicanery to make it happen. Plus, Esau sold the Birthright to Jacob for a bowl of beans, showing he profaned God's Birthright and was not worthy of it. Jacob was told by God that his seed would become "a nation, and a company of nations". God gave Jacob the new name of ISRAEL, so this new name ISRAEL involves more than just the Jews, which title applied only to those of the 3-tribe southern "kingdom of Judah". The name ISRAEL is about God's Promise by Faith (The Gospel), and His Birthright blessings.

5. the dew of heaven, the fat places of the earth, and plenty of grain and wine. Let peoples serve thee, and bow down to thee (Genesis 27:27-29). These are God's blessings in His Birthright, and the 1 Chronicles 5 Scripture reveals these blessings were to be passed down to Joseph's two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, where the Birthright blessings part is supposed to still be even today.

This of course does not mean the nation state of Israel in the middle east, which the majority there still reject The Gospel. God's Birthright includes His Promise by Faith that Abraham believed, which is The Gospel of Jesus Christ. That means look to the nations that have The Gospel as their national heritage.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The New Covenant.

Our part.

Ephesians 1
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

His part.

Ephesians 1
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

That is a non-answer if I ever saw one!