National Covenant

[Randy Kluth]

To be an orthodox Jew, you must reject Christ.

That is an indispensable part of orthodox Jewish tradition.

Multitudes believe that virtuous things will save them i.e. salvation by works. That blinds them to the reality that salvation is only by grace through faith.

As I said, there are traditions that have nothing to do with opposing salvation, or have nothing to do with the matter of salvation at all. The tradition I spoke of was the idea of people of common ethnicity gathering together for social, cultural, or family purposes. There is nothing wrong with this. Jews do not always gather together to attack Christianity! But gathering together in the land of Israel is a matter of survival for those who do not yet know Christ and may in the future. You think the tradition of gathering together in the land of Israel is bad and non-Christian?

 

[covenantee]

As I said, there are traditions that have nothing to do with opposing salvation, or have nothing to do with the matter of salvation at all. The tradition I spoke of was the idea of people of common ethnicity gathering together for social, cultural, or family purposes. There is nothing wrong with this. Jews do not always gather together to attack Christianity! But gathering together in the land of Israel is a matter of survival for those who do not yet know Christ and may in the future. You think the tradition of gathering together in the land of Israel is bad and non-Christian?

Gathering is for their mutual affirmation and encouragement. Integral to that is their rejection of Christ. Do you think that orthodox Jews do not attack Christianity?

Do you think that their rejection of Christ is not bad and non-Christian?

 

[Keraz]

The Future of Jewish Israel:

As we comes closer to a showdown between Iran and the Western world, over Iran’s overt and now successful nuclear program, we Bible believing Christians should look closely at what we are told by the Bible Prophets.

God has given us much information about what will happen when Iran and their allies try to attack Israel and America, as they have plainly said they intend to do.

The best description of what the Lord will do at the moment of attack is:

Psalms 7:12-16 The enemy sharpens his sword again, strings his bow and makes it ready. It is against himself that he has prepared his deadly shafts and tipped his arrows with fire, he is in concert with iniquity, he has conceived mischief and given birth to lies.
The enemy has dug a pit and made it deep, but he himself will fall into the pit he has made. His nefarious plans will recoil upon himself and the violence he planned for others, will fall upon his own head. Joel 3:4

This scenario is confirmed by Jeremiah 49:35-37 and Ezekiel 32:24-25


However, the fulfilment of these Prophesies will also result in disaster for all the peoples in the Middle East, including Judah, now represented by the Jewish State of Israel, living in a small part of the holy Land.

Ezekiel 30:1-3 ….. the peoples of Egypt, Cush, Put and Libya, and the Arabs, will fall by the Sword of the Lord on His Day of Reckoning.

Zephaniah 1:4 I shall stretch My hand over Judah, over all who live in Jerusalem, I shall wipe out their false worship, ….erasing all memory of them.

Zephaniah 1:14-18 The great Day of the Lord is near and is fast approaching. …..a day of dire distress upon the people, because of their sins against the Lord……
Nothing will save them from the fire of His retribution and vengeance, the whole Land will be affected, for He will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live in the Land.

Amos 2:4-5 For crime after crime of Judah, I shall grant them no reprieve, because they have spurned the Word of the Lord and have not observed His decrees…….

Therefore I will send fire upon Judah and Jerusalem will be destroyed.


Jesus made it clear too:

Matthew 8:12 Those who are born into the Kingdom will be thrown out…..

Matthew 21:43 I tell you: the Kingdom will be taken from you Jews ……

Revelation 2:9….those who claim to be Jews, but are not as they are really a synagogue of Satan.

Isaiah 29:1-4 tells us how a faithful remnant of Christian Jews, will survive the disaster which the Lord will send that will clear and cleanse the entire Middle East. Deuteronomy 32:43, Romans 9:27


Bible Prophecy is sure: this will all happen as Written. We are the generation who will see it all and for a Bible believer to not be aware of it: is very unfortunate and may result in some difficulty and a loss for them.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Gathering is for their mutual affirmation and encouragement. Integral to that is their rejection of Christ. Do you think that orthodox Jews do not attack Christianity?

Do you think that their rejection of Christ is not bad and non-Christian?

We seem to be talking past one another? What I said is that *not all tradition* has a thing to do with Salvation. What about this do you fail to understand?

The gathering of ethnic groups to countries that are friendly to those ethnic groups is a wise thing--not an evil thing. And it doesn't have to have a thing to do with religion. The people who gather may be religious, but the act of gathering together itself may be simply a matter of survival--not religious discrimination or hostility.

 

[covenantee]

We seem to be talking past one another? What I said is that *not all tradition* has a thing to do with Salvation. What about this do you fail to understand?

The gathering of ethnic groups to countries that are friendly to those ethnic groups is a wise thing--not an evil thing. And it doesn't have to have a thing to do with religion. The people who gather may be religious, but the act of gathering together itself may be simply a matter of survival--not religious discrimination or hostility.

If someone rejects Christ, and gathers in community with those who reject Christ, will he or she be more likely, or less likely, to continue rejecting Christ?

The answer is self-evident.

 

[Randy Kluth]

If someone rejects Christ, and gathers in community with those who reject Christ, will he or she be more likely, or less likely, to continue rejecting Christ?

The answer is self-evident.

I plan to say this only one more time. Not all tradition, even tradition kept by religious people, has to do with religion. Some people who gather at Christmas are not religious and mean nothing religious by it. Some people who are religious observe Independence Day as a tradition in their country, but mean nothing religious by it.

"Tradition" is a neutral word. And you are trying to affix a religious meaning to it necessarily simply because Jews who practice various traditions are sometimes religious.

But gathering to a country that is largely characterized by Judaism does not have to have a thing to do with religion for everybody. Making Aliyah is something a friend of mine did, and though his Mother was Jewish he was himself a Christian.

He engaged in a tradition for non-religious, but cultural and social purposes. He supported the State of Israel simply to ally with his people. Last I heard he married a German woman and moved to Stuttgart!

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew 25:34-40 spells it out. We must do what we are capable of to spread the Gospel, Matthew 28:19-20, and to help others.

Exactly. They had no clue about Jesus, nor that Jesus was their Lord. Jesus chose them as His elect, and Jesus made them righteous. It was nothing they did on their own.

 

[Keraz]

Exactly. They had no clue about Jesus, nor that Jesus was their Lord. Jesus chose them as His elect, and Jesus made them righteous. It was nothing they did on their own.

It seems that you. like RandyK; still grip onto a future Jewish redemption.
Not going to happen, as I proved in #303

The Jewish nation's general rejection of Jesus causes them, to lose out on the final inheritance. That inheritance has passed on to all who accept their Messiah (Jesus) as their personal Saviour and Redeemer. But as Christians we have been grafted into their olive tree, and we can be cut off as their nation was. Romans 11:21-22.

Had the Jews, as a nation, accepted their Messiah, they would have been the people, [church] through whom God would work to bring the Gospel to all the world. It was their gospel, but they refused to accept it. Thus was born the Christian church and we have the responsibility to spread the Gospel. Matthew 28:19-20 This task has been undertaken with reasonable success, but much remains to be done.
It will be completed in the end times by the 144,000 godly Christians. Who are, as Isaiah 66:19 says: are people from every tribe, [of Israel] race, nation and language.

 

[covenantee]

It is gathering together with the community that represents the Jewish tradition, which of course are made up of those who started it.

I plan to say this only one more time. Not all tradition, even tradition kept by religious people, has to do with religion. Some people who gather at Christmas are not religious and mean nothing religious by it. Some people who are religious observe Independence Day as a tradition in their country, but mean nothing religious by it.

"Tradition" is a neutral word. And you are trying to affix a religious meaning to it necessarily simply because Jews who practice various traditions are sometimes religious.

But gathering to a country that is largely characterized by Judaism does not have to have a thing to do with religion for everybody. Making Aliyah is something a friend of mine did, and though his Mother was Jewish he was himself a Christian.

He engaged in a tradition for non-religious, but cultural and social purposes. He supported the State of Israel simply to ally with his people. Last I heard he married a German woman and moved to Stuttgart!

You've been espousing Jewish community and tradition as attracting God's favor despite Jewish rejection of His Son.

How many times will your story change?

 

[Randy Kluth]

You've been espousing Jewish community and tradition as attracting God's favor despite Jewish rejection of His Son.

How many times will your story change?

I have no idea what you're talking about? If you're going to protest something I've said, please be clear about what it is I've said that you're protesting. I've never said God favors those who reject His Son. On the contrary, Jews who reject Christ are suffering a national punishment.

Does that mean God is opposed to the Jewish community otherwise? No, on the contrary, God recognizes the latent ignorance among the Jews, and has sought to preserve them until a time when their ignorance can be overcome.

The Chinese nation rejects Christ largely, and God does not favor them for that reason either. Does that mean God does not favor them at all with His help and protection? No. He seeks to preserve them so that some can be brought into the light of Christ over time, which is precisely what has been happening.

 

[Timtofly]

It seems that you. like RandyK; still grip onto a future Jewish redemption.
Not going to happen, as I proved in #303

The Jewish nation's general rejection of Jesus causes them, to lose out on the final inheritance. That inheritance has passed on to all who accept their Messiah (Jesus) as their personal Saviour and Redeemer. But as Christians we have been grafted into their olive tree, and we can be cut off as their nation was. Romans 11:21-22.

Had the Jews, as a nation, accepted their Messiah, they would have been the people, [church] through whom God would work to bring the Gospel to all the world. It was their gospel, but they refused to accept it. Thus was born the Christian church and we have the responsibility to spread the Gospel. Matthew 28:19-20 This task has been undertaken with reasonable success, but much remains to be done.
It will be completed in the end times by the 144,000 godly Christians. Who are, as Isaiah 66:19 says: are people from every tribe, [of Israel] race, nation and language.

There is no, "if it had been". God planned for 2,000 years of the fulness of the Gentiles from creation, or Jesus would just now be being born and soon dying on the Cross.

God is calling His chosen out of all nations. Remember that many in Israel will soon be killed, prior to the Second Coming. I am not talking about saving the current citizenry of Israel. But if God redeemed all in current Israel, why would you stand up and object to God doing that?

 

[Keraz]

There is no, "if it had been". God planned for 2,000 years of the fulness of the Gentiles from creation, or Jesus would just now be being born and soon dying on the Cross.

God graciously gave the Jews first refusal - the Kingdom could have been theirs, as Matthew 21:43 makes clear.
But they rejected Jesus and lost it, as God knew they would. Only then did He turn to the Gentiles.

God is calling His chosen out of all nations. Remember that many in Israel will soon be killed, prior to the Second Coming

This is a clear example of what many other members here complain of. You simply do not read or seem to understand other peoples posts.
In my post #303, I show some of the many Prophesies that say Judah; now the Jewish Nation of Israel, will be depopulated and only a remnant will survive. And it does not happen when Jesus Returns, it will be at least 10 years before.

Maybe this is simply too shocking for people to comprehend. Especially those whose false belief of a Jewish redemption is shattered.

 

[Keraz]

The children of ethnic Israel are not the children of God. Only the believers of the promised Seed are the children of God. The children of the flesh are those who have denied Jesus Christ, following the wrong paths, the children of the promise are the only ones who have the Holy Spirit anointing in their lives and their birthright in God. Romans 9:8

Most Jews may have descent which comes from their lineage of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. But when they turned from their true inheritance and embraced the Babylonian Talmud, they lost their birthright in God.

Jesus came to redeem the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the Northern 10 tribes. But we know from the whole message of the New Testament, that salvation is open to people of every race, nation and language, who believe in Him. John 3:16

Luke 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for He hath visited and redeemed His people. Jesus came to bring redemption to the sons of Judah, but instead they cried out, "Crucify Him! Crucify Him!" The Jews have suffered the consequence of this rejection ever since.
But still refuse to repent!

When Jesus spoke of Israel, it was always in the positive. When He spoke of the Jews, it was always in the negative. The separation that happened in King Rehoboam’s time still remains to this day. The great spiritual and physical rejoining of Christian Israel and Messianic Jewry, prophesied in Ezekiel 37, awaits fulfilment.


When Jesus walked the earth those who were His enemies were the religious Jews. There were three main sects of the Jewish religion: the Sadducees, the Pharisees and the Herodians:

The Sadducees were the keepers of the ancient laws. The name Sadducee means "righteous." They did not believe in the resurrection of the body, nor did they believe in retribution in a future life. The Jewish priests embraced the Sadducee's religion.

The name Pharisee means "separatist." The main tenets of this religion is that the soul will never perish and the wicked will be punished with eternal torment. In other words, they believe the lie the serpent spoke to Eve in the garden that "Ye shall not surely die." The scribes embraced the Pharisee's religion.

The Herodians were those who loved the Greek way of life and followed the dictates of Herod (secular government). They did not adhere to the Jewish law. Their only loyalties were to Rome.

These same three beliefs have infiltrated the church system today. The religious Sadducees today, no matter what name they go by, still want to keep the old law. They keep the Sabbath, observe the ritualistic holidays and dietary laws.

The religious Pharisees are those who are separatists, teaching the eternal lost soul of the wicked, believing they are the only righteous ones, and have made doctrines and creeds to live by. If their people go to any other church, they are reprimanded.

The religious Herodians are those who think mankind can bring about a utopian society by their own efforts and shun all teaching of righteousness with their "if it feels good do it" attitude, but still maintain their belief in a God. Call ‘him’ Gaia or ‘her’ Mother Earth, they all follow ancient paths of Satanic deceit.


Matthew 23:13-15 But woe unto you, scribes, Pharisees, all hypocrites! For ye shut up the Kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

This certainly describes the modern Jews who have closed up the Kingdom of God to their people. As Jesus stated they would not enter in themselves, and they hinder all those who want to go into the Kingdom realm.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The children of ethnic Israel are not the children of God.

Not yet. It isn't promised that all of the nation will turn Christian *today.* Rather, this is promised for the *future!*

 

[Keraz]

Not yet. It isn't promised that all of the nation will turn Christian *today.* Rather, this is promised for the *future!*

I have proved thru the Prophetic Word, that there is no such Promise for the House of Judah.
Your responses are noticeably bereft of scriptural support.

People who believe in a miraculous change and conversion to Christianity of the majority of the current citizens of Jewish Israel, simply are not thinking of how God operates:
He is a God of vengeance, He directs His wrath against those who reject Him and who reject Jesus, Nahum 1:2, Hebrews 10:26-27

God WILL have a people who have shown their faith in Him by their trust for His protection during the forthcoming, terrible Day that He shakes the world; some will be Jews, Isaiah 6:11-13, but all will be people who have already accepted the Salvation pf Jesus. Romans 9:24-26
THEY will go to live in all of the holy Land. Micah 4:6-8, + and those of Israel who revolt and rebel will die. Ezekiel 20:34-38

 

[Randy Kluth]

I have proved thru the Prophetic Word, that there is no such Promise for the House of Judah.

You have proven no such thing. There are many people who reject and resist God for years before finally accepting Him. Besides, nobody said the people in Israel *today* are the ones who will convert in the future. You are determining, in advance, that the people who live there today will have children who will be damned. That is an unfortunate product of your theology--you judge people to Hell before they're even born! Your doctrine *must be* false!

Equally bad, you think you have the right to predetermine which countries will be delivered from their enemies, and which countries can or cannot embrace the Christian religion. Or, you simply consign all nations who claim to be "Christian" as false Christianity. What a negative Nellie!

 

[Keraz]

You have proven no such thing. There are many people who reject and resist God for years before finally accepting Him

Not me: the Prophets said that Judah will be Judged and punished and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27

Sure; for the last nearly 2000 years, Salvation has been available to all who accept Jesus. But those who reject Jesus, especially those people who have as a community denied Him for all that time.
Did you bother to look at Hebrews 10:26-27? Here it is:
For if we deliberately persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, then there can be no further atonement for sins, only the terrifying expectation of Judgment of the fierce fire which will consume God's enemies.
The soon to happen worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal, which will strike the Middle East at mid day, Zephaniah 2:4 and will virtually depopulate the entire region.

Equally bad, you think you have the right to predetermine which countries will be delivered from their enemies, and which countries can or cannot embrace the Christian religion. Or, you simply consign all nations who claim to be "Christian" as false Christianity.

What country, or ethnicity a person belongs to, has nothing to do with their Salvation. Paul made that crystal clear in Ephesians 2:11-18

Those people who have usurped the name of Israel, are imposters, there are over 20 clearly stated Prophesies that describe their demise.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not me: the Prophets said that Judah will be Judged and punished and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27

As I said before, Israel survives today by a remnant. But the promise is a full national restoration, and final deliverance form the nations.

 

[Keraz]

As I said before, Israel survives today by a remnant. But the promise is a full national restoration, and final deliverance form the nations.

I like you Randy, you stick to your guns: even when your ship has sunk and your beliefs are shot down in flames.
Your reply above is just a parroting of unsupported opinion and is a contradiction. How exactly can a *full national restoration* happen to *only a remnant*?

The true faithful Christian people of God are His Israelites. Galatians 6:14-16 His chosen ones, from every tribe, race, nation and language.
1 Peter 2:9-10, Isaiah 66:18b
The Jewish State of Israel is a Satanic construct, which God as told us, thru His Prophets; that He intends to wipe out and to be remembered no more. Isaiah 22:14, Ezekiel 21:32

 

[Randy Kluth]

I like you Randy, you stick to your guns: even when your ship has sunk and your beliefs are shot down in flames.

Feelings mutual, brother! I'm tempted to send you an aid package...

Your reply above is just a parroting of unsupported opinion and is a contradiction. How exactly can a *full national restoration* happen to *only a remnant*?

A full national restoration is precisely what a remnant of a nation needs!

The true faithful Christian people of God are His Israelites. Galatians 6:14-16 His chosen ones, from every tribe, race, nation and language.
1 Peter 2:9-10, Isaiah 66:18b
The Jewish State of Israel is a Satanic construct, which God as told us, thru His Prophets; that He intends to wipe out and to be remembered no more. Isaiah 22:14, Ezekiel 21:32

Again, let the parrot speak: the Jewish State is not now what it promises to be. An unsaved nation must be unsaved before it becomes saved! Take care...