National Covenant

[Randy Kluth]

The claimant bears the burden of proof.

As expected, you can prove nothing, and your claim is null and void.

I just corrected that post, and thought I was being a bit rude, though honest. I do think there is more to be discussed, whether we agree or not. So I apologize.

Reread #279

Replacement Theology took root in the Early Church, even during the time when Premillennialism seemed dominant. But there were always those who rejected any sense of Jewish recovery, to the loss of Christian theology. And to combat this, aim was taken at Premillennialists by equating them with an overly-materialistic Kingdom Age, similar to that early advocated by Cerinthus.

And so, the idea of a political salvation of Israel was reduced to a vague, non-materialistic sense of salvation to be revealed to all nations following Armageddon. That doesn't help, I know.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The claimant bears the burden of proof.

As expected, you can prove nothing, and your claim is null and void.

For most of history, the Church has rejected the notion of Jewish Salvation in any detailed political sense. That's because the Early Church focused on the foundational truths of Christian Salvation, as opposed to opposition by Jews who trusted in their elite status and salvation by Law.

For most of Christian history, we've therefore had a dominant Amillennialism, focusing on salvation "today," as opposed to salvation "tomorrow." Premillennial Futurism was relegated to minority status and to a state of "speculation."

But what I was referring to as "all over the internet" is Dispensationalism. It isn't difficult to find lots of those who interpret the Scriptures in a modern sense, looking at the conclusion of things instead of the founding of things as existed in the Church Fathers. And so, here at the end of the age we find new emphasis placed on what had formerly been relegated to irrelevant speculation.

However, Dispensationalism does have support in the Early Church for its "futurism," even though it is not precisely the same as it is today. Pretrib Rapturism did not exist, though some imminent expectation may have indeed existed. Belief in a rebuilt temple was advocated by some. Belief in a future Antichrist was believed in. A future period of Daniel's 70th Week was advocated for, etc.

I'm quick to say I'm not a Dispensationalist. But I embrace as brothers those who are, and do share in their belief in Israel's salvation. I just don't enthrone Israel as some kind of superior nation in the Millennium, nor do I support an imminent Rapture, a rebuilding of the temple, nor any sense that Israel is on a separate NT timeline. (And I don't embrace the "Gap Theory" of Daniel's "70the Week.")

Israel is simply a different nation who started with God first. And the Bible indicates they will now be last to come to a Christian revelation. That's not because God wants that, but only because it is inevitable due to the nature of collective sin in various societies. (Those who've been raised in a culture of faith and have been harmed by a sin-leavened religious society are difficult to bring back to faith.)

 

[covenantee]

I just corrected that post, and thought I was being a bit rude, though honest. I do think there is more to be discussed, whether we agree or not. So I apologize.

Reread #279

Replacement Theology took root in the Early Church, even during the time when Premillennialism seemed dominant. But there were always those who rejected any sense of Jewish recovery, to the loss of Christian theology. And to combat this, aim was taken at Premillennialists by equating them with an overly-materialistic Kingdom Age, similar to that early advocated by Cerinthus.

And so, the idea of a political salvation of Israel was reduced to a vague, non-materialistic sense of salvation to be revealed to all nations following Armageddon. That doesn't help, I know.

Apology accepted, thanks.

Various of the ECFs did express anticipation for a restoration of Israel, but it was to be a spiritual restoration accomplished by God through the Church, not a geopolitical restoration.

I'm not aware of anyone in pre-19th-century orthodox Christian history who espoused a geopolitical perspective in e.g Romans 9:27.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Apology accepted, thanks.

Various of the ECFs did express anticipation for a restoration of Israel, but it was to be a spiritual restoration accomplished by God through the Church, not a geopolitical restoration.

I'm not aware of anyone in pre-19th-century orthodox Christian history who espoused a geopolitical perspective in e.g Romans 9:27.

I suppose most of my influences came from Dispensationalists, who I used to agree with. I fell away from them after memorizing 2 Thessalonians--my brother urged me to start memorizing Scripture. When I memorized 2 Thes 2, I couldn't get past the obvious Postrib doctrine, and promptly dismissed the Pretrib Rapture teaching.

After spending time living in S. CA, Orange County, I ran into Chuck Smith's radio broadcasts, strongly advocating for Pretrib. I began a search that led me to begin to stand on explicit Bible, instead of current popular eschatology. I became a strong Postrib advocate and have been ever since.

But I remained Premill, even though I was raised in an Amill denomination. I discovered that Premill was indeed the dominant teaching in the Early Church, even though later men like Origen and Augustine began to establish symbolic interpretation and Amill. Replacement Theology already had existed, by that time, in the early Premillennialists.

So when I say that people out there believe in Israel's political deliverance, I'm talking about a combination of the early Premill belief in a future Armageddon, which is an actual political war, and the later rise of futurism, which ultimately came to be dominated by Dispensationalism.

That's when political deliverance at Christ's Coming came to look forward to Israel's recovery in the Millennium, though I believe the Bible has long taught this. My argument is therefore based on explicit Bible teaching, as understood by the Jewish People, and later represented in the futurist position within the Early Church and later, in the Dispensationalist school. It's just that the Early Church and the rise of Amillennialism separated out Israel from Premillennialist thought.

 

[Keraz]

I have no idea what you're talking about. What "battle" did you think I was referencing? You must be terribly confused? I'm simply stating that the 2 kingdoms of Israel and Judah were separated before the time of Ezekiel, and then were no longer separated when the restoration of Judah took place during the reign of Cyrus.

The battle you referred to in 2 Samuel 17:11 In the time of King David.
It wasn't until King Rehoboam, that they separated into 2 Houses; Judah and Israel.

The return of the Jews to Jerusalem under Ezra and Nehemiah, wasn't even all the Jews. The House of Israel was nowhere near Babylon and your idea that they rejoined then; is untenable and unscriptural.

No, there are lots of people who reject or haven't accepted Jesus now who will do so later--both Jew and non-Jew. Why do you persist in ignoring this fact?

Our chance to get right with Jesus is NOW. After the end times events commence, it will be too late. As Ezekiel 20:34-38 tells us.

I do not see anyone becoming Christian or repenting during the rule of the Anti-Christ. Revelation 16:11
Why do you persist in thinking they can convert then?
We do see in Zechariah 12:9-14, that the few remaining Jewish families will finally accept Jesus when He Returns. The remnant.

But there is absolutely *nothing* about the international Church becomes a political nation in the geographical region of national Israel.

Try to actually read what the Prophets say:
The Land of Beulah

Isaiah 62:1-2a For Zion’s sake, I shall not keep silent – until her victory shines forth, like the sunrise, her victory like a blazing torch. The nations will see your victory and their rulers your glory.
Isaiah prophesies for the sake of Zion; the holy Land. There will be a great victory, ‘like a blazing torch’ - a CME sunstrike over the attacking enemies. Isaiah 30:25-30 & 66:15-16, Psalms 11:4-6 The world will see it and be amazed. Jeremiah 33:6-16

Isaiah 62:2b-5 You will receive a new name, the Lord Himself will give it. You will be like a glorious crown in His hand. No more are you forsaken and your Land desolate. You will be called ‘Hephzibah’ and the Land, ‘Beulah’. For the Lord will delight in you and it will be like a marriage: He will rejoice over you as a bridegroom over his bride. ‘Hephzibah’ = My delight is in her. ‘Beulah’ = married. Isaiah 49:18

The Lord’s people, all the Christian Israelites of God, will be gathered and settled into their heritage, all of the holy Land, in the new nation of Beulah. Wonderful promises to them of fertility and wealth. They will live in justice, peace and security, as He intended people to be.


Isaiah 62:6-7 Jerusalem, on your walls, I have posted watchmen, they will call out: You that invoke the Name of the Lord, do not rest and give no rest to the Lord until He makes Jerusalem a praise throughout the world.
The Hebrew word for ‘watchmen’, is ‘natzar’, the root word for Nazarene; literally all Christian believers. WE must not rest or let the Lord forget His people and His Land. Keep praying for our redemption and restoration. Ezekiel 36:24-28, Isaiah 52:7-9

Isaiah 62:8-9 The Lord has sworn to never again allow foreigners to take the produce of the Land, but you who give praises to Him will eat the grain and drink the wine, within My sacred courts.
After the great clearance in the Middle East, only His righteous people will be allowed to live there, those who love the Lord and obey Him. Isaiah 66:20-21, Ezekiel 20:38

Isaiah 62:10-11 Pass through the gates – clear a road for My people. Build a highway, remove the rocks and make a signal to guide the people. Proclaim to the ends of the earth, say to the offspring of Zion: See your deliverance comes, His reward is with Him and He will make recompense.
The great gathering of the Lord’s people – the second Exodus, will happen in the same manner as the first Exodus. Leaders [shepherds] will arise to guide the flock, in the spirit of Moses and Elijah. Jeremiah 3:14-15, Isaiah 58:11, Isaiah 43:5-7, Micah 4:6, Isaiah 49:9-13, Isaiah 51:3, Zechariah 8:11-12, Isaiah 40:1-5, Ezekiel 11:17

Isaiah 62:12 They will be called ‘The Holy people, the Redeemed of God’ and Jerusalem will be called ‘sought after, the City no longer forsaken’.

The Lord’s faithful Christian people: living in the Holy Land of Beulah, as He created them to live, being a ‘light to the nations’ and witnesses to His salvation. They will be divided into 12 groups, named after the original sons of Jacob. Jesus will appear to them, 1 Thess 1:10 and 12,000 missionaries will be selected from them, Revelation 14:1-7, to go to every people group on earth, to preach the good news of the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19, 1 Peter 2:9-10, Acts 2:39, Jeremiah 31:23-34

Joel 2:23-27 People of Zion, rejoice – your God will recompense you for the years that others have ravaged your Land. You will again have plenty in your own Land. Then you will know that I am present in Israel and that I and no other am your God.
We will know the Lord is present by His deeds. Just as it was at the Exodus.
Must be before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.

The Holy people, present in the holy land in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5-8

 

[Timtofly]

People repent when they become Christian. Or they should do!

Those sheep never repented nor became Christians. That is the whole point.

This judgment was given to humans alive after the Second Coming. They are not part of the church, the same as those in the OT were not part of the church.

John the Baptist was the first to preach repentance. Under the OT economy they brought a repentance offering to the priest. Just throwing the words, "I repent" at the priest did not cut it. Just like sacrificing sheep on an alter in your back yard would not help you one bit, today.

In Matthew 25:31 Jesus is sitting on a throne in Jerusalem. The angels are gathering people from all Nations. Since they are called sheep, they fit the description of the lost sheep of Israel. They are elect of God, because God choose them for doing good works, even when they were clueless. They had no clue they were doing good works:

"Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?"

Why would you as a Christian have to ask God, when? When is your Atonement based on works period? These are elect, not a free will confession of faith.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The battle you referred to in 2 Samuel 17:11 In the time of King David.
It wasn't until King Rehoboam, that they separated into 2 Houses; Judah and Israel.

The return of the Jews to Jerusalem under Ezra and Nehemiah, wasn't even all the Jews. The House of Israel was nowhere near Babylon and your idea that they rejoined then; is untenable and unscriptural.

Oh I see--you read that as 2 separate houses having to come back together again? I find that untenable myself because there is no northern house of Israel anymore--gone forever! There will never again be a distinct northern kingdom in Israel, separate from Judah.

As I said, the division was resolved in the restoration of Judah. It was resolved by the permanent dissolution of the northern Kingdom, which had permanently turned to other gods. When Judah returned during the Persian restoration, it was only one Kingdom once again, resolving the problem of a divided Kingdom. And Judah contained members who had joined them from all 12 tribes.

Our chance to get right with Jesus is NOW. After the end times events commence, it will be too late. As Ezekiel 20:34-38 tells us.

The availability of repentance is here now. But not all have heard and understood. That's why people will still be getting saved tomorrow. Otherwise, if people aren't saved today, then everybody else is lost forever.

I do not see anyone becoming Christian or repenting during the rule of the Anti-Christ. Revelation 16:11
Why do you persist in thinking they can convert then?
We do see in Zechariah 12:9-14, that the few remaining Jewish families will finally accept Jesus when He Returns. The remnant.

Well yes, that's one passage. Another is Rev 11, where many Jews in Jerusalem give glory to God following an earthquake. And finally, at the return of Christ, "every eye will see him."

When Antichrist demands worship, people will still have a choice. People from all nations will worship the Antichrist. But there will be many in all nations who reject Antichrist, as well. That's one reason there will be an Armageddon.

It does no good to post me prophecies of Israel's future glory when you rob real Israel of these promises and fashion them to apply only to a completely different kind of "Israel," the international Church. We don't need that kind of manipulation to inherit eternal life and all God's promises. God has no favorites. He wants to bless every nation, and He wants to save every individual.

 

[Keraz]

Those sheep never repented nor became Christians. That is the whole point.

the people alive when Jesus Returns and He Judges them, Those who did do righteous things are His 'sheep'. The rest are 'goats' and were never the Lord's people.

Oh I see--you read that as 2 separate houses having to come back together again? I find that untenable myself because there is no northern house of Israel anymore--gone forever! There will never again be a distinct northern kingdom in Israel, separate from Judah.

Well, Randy' I'm not going to let you think I've given up, but it is plain that you are set in concrete in the belief of a general; Jewish redemption.

Your contention that the ten Northern tribes are no more is wrong.
Proved by how they received the Promises given to them by Jacob; Genesis 49:2-4 & 13-27, and by Moses; Deuteronomy 33:13-25
None of those great Promises have been received by the Jews. On the contrary, they pass on the sceptre of Kingship, personified in Jesus, Genesis 49:12 and in Deuteronomy 33:7, Judah is only promised help against his adversaries. Which they have had, in their wars over the last 74 years.

You also contradict Amos 9:9-10 .....I shall scatter Israel among all the nations.....not losing any of them, but the sinners of My people will die. Isaiah 22:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18

But your worst failure to see who the true Israelites are today, is in Matthew 15:24, where Jesus said He was specifically sent to save the House of Israel. If that meant the Jews, then Jesus failed His mission. But He was successful; the Apostles went out to where the Northern tribes were living at that time.
It follows logically, that we Christian peoples ARE the true Israel; by faith, Galatians 6:14-16, and by descent.

Rev 11, where many Jews in Jerusalem give glory to God following an earthquake

I will concede you are right, people can still repent during the 42 months that the 'beast' has world control. They will get their heads chopped off, but that means they get resurrected and go with Jesus into the Millennium. Revelation 20:4

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well, Randy' I'm not going to let you think I've given up, but it is plain that you are set in concrete in the belief of a general; Jewish redemption.

I'm not set in concrete--I'm just convinced based on all the evidence. I know the history of these beliefs and see why they changed one way or the other.

Your contention that the ten Northern tribes are no more is wrong.
Proved by how they received the Promises given to them by Jacob; Genesis 49:2-4 & 13-27, and by Moses; Deuteronomy 33:13-25
None of those great Promises have been received by the Jews. On the contrary, they pass on the sceptre of Kingship, personified in Jesus, Genesis 49:12 and in Deuteronomy 33:7, Judah is only promised help against his adversaries. Which they have had, in their wars over the last 74 years.

People haven't believed in the salvation of national Israel because it requires having divine patience. Only God could be so patient as to wait 2000 years for national revival! Again, prophecies of judgment against Israel, and even final judgment against the recalcitrant does not mean salvation cannot come for those ultimately willing to repent.

You also contradict Amos 9:9-10 .....I shall scatter Israel among all the nations.....not losing any of them, but the sinners of My people will die. Isaiah 22:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18

But your worst failure to see who the true Israelites are today, is in Matthew 15:24, where Jesus said He was specifically sent to save the House of Israel. If that meant the Jews, then Jesus failed His mission. But He was successful; the Apostles went out to where the Northern tribes were living at that time.

Jesus obviously didn't fail in his mission. But I think you're mischaracterizing it. His mission was to provide *legal salvation* that ultimately results in a resurrection, which obviously wasn't intended to take place immediately. So when Jesus died on the cross, he succeeded in providing legal redemption for Israel, as well as for the world. Now the process of bringing people into that Kingdom continues.

It follows logically, that we Christian peoples ARE the true Israel; by faith, Galatians 6:14-16, and by descent.

Not only does it not follow logically that Christians are Israel, but it defies the meaning of words. But I do realize that this change in word meaning began in the Early Church and started the tradition of Amillennialism. Words became symbols of something else. "Israel" came to mean "Church." I can't buy into that, particularly now that there is genuine evidence that God is soon to restore Israel spiritually. Israel is back in her land, and there is even Messianic Jewish movements around.

I will concede you are right, people can still repent during the 42 months that the 'beast' has world control. They will get their heads chopped off, but that means they get resurrected and go with Jesus into the Millennium. Revelation 20:4

That's not a concession. That's just something we both agree on. But I'm glad we agree on that much. Thank you.

 

[Keraz]

Not only does it not follow logically that Christians are Israel, but it defies the meaning of words.

What does 'israel' mean?
It means 'overcomer'. as Jacob was with the angel of God. Genesis 32:22-28 God then Blessed Jacob/Israel,
Genesis 35:9-12 ....I am God Almighty. Be fruitful and increase; many nations will come from you, Kings also will descend from you. The Land I gave to Abraham and Isaac, I give to you and to your descendants.

We see who the overcomers are today, in each of the seven types of Church; Revelation 2-&3. They are NOT the Jews.

Israel is back in her land,

It is a known fact that David ben Gurion was going to call the new nation that he was the first President of: The State of Judah.
But it was pressure from America that convinced him to call it the State of Israel.

This was a serious deception that has caused a lot of confusion and wrong belief among Christians and the world.
Many of their citizens are not Jewish at all, but it seems from the many who do hold to a redemption of that nation, that to simply be an Israeli citizen, is enough to secure a place as one of God's people.
That idea simply has to be wrong, it is a total contradiction of all the New Testament teachings. God's true, faithful people are ONLY those who have accepted the Salvation of Jesus.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What does 'israel' mean?

You think the meaning of a name changes who the name belongs to? I don't understand this one--don't bother trying to explain...

It is a known fact that David ben Gurion was going to call the new nation that he was the first President of: The State of Judah.
But it was pressure from America that convinced him to call it the State of Israel.

I don't have a problem with this at all. After all, it was the return to the Southern State that caused the people of Israel to be called "Jews." It was a return to the temple of God in Jerusalem that determined, for God, who He would have survive to represent all 12 tribes--certainly not those who committed apostasy forever!

Many of their citizens are not Jewish at all, but it seems from the many who do hold to a redemption of that nation, that to simply be an Israeli citizen, is enough to secure a place as one of God's people.

Far as I know, no serious Christian would argue that salvation comes only because one is an Israeli citizen! And how Jewish your "blood" is was not the central thing. It is gathering together with the community that represents the Jewish tradition, which of course are made up of those who started it.

 

[covenantee]

It is gathering together with the community that represents the Jewish tradition, which of course are made up of those who started it.

Who will be saved by Jewish tradition?

Jesus' words about Jewish tradition.

Matthew 15:3
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mark 7:8
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Mark 7:9
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[Keraz]

You think the meaning of a name changes who the name belongs to? I don't understand this one

The meaning of a name should apply to the person or peoples whose name it is.
NOT to a person or peoples who merely claim it. The 'Democratic' Republic of the Congo, is a prime example.

In the case of the name of Israel, it applied to Jacob, as he was an overcomer for God.
It does not belong to the citizens of the Jewish state, their claim to it is false.
It does apply to every individual who is an overcomer for God. THEY, WE: are the people who inherit God's Promises. Ephesians 1:11-14, Romans 8:16-18

After all, it was the return to the Southern State that caused the people of Israel to be called "Jews." It was a return to the temple of God in Jerusalem that determined, for God, who He would have survive to represent all 12 tribes--certainly not those who committed apostasy forever!

This is simply not as the Bible says. It is a made up theory that ignores Bible facts.

It is gathering together with the community that represents the Jewish tradition

I will prepare a post which will show what God intends to do with the community of mixed race people, who currently occupy the area between the Mediterranean and the river Jordan.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Who will be saved by Jewish tradition?

Jesus' words about Jewish tradition.

No one is saved by tradition, but traditions can be a good thing. Jesus was opposed to tradition that bypassed the important things.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The meaning of a name should apply to the person or peoples whose name it is.
NOT to a person or peoples who merely claim it. The 'Democratic' Republic of the Congo, is a prime example.

A person's name can mean any number of things, but the person it belongs to remains the same person regardless of what the name means. .

In the case of the name of Israel, it applied to Jacob, as he was an overcomer for God.
It does not belong to the citizens of the Jewish state, their claim to it is false.

That's false. God applied the name "Israel" to the people of Israel in good times and bad. When they were bad, God still called them "Israel."

You're mistaking the fact God cuts people off from His people when they break their covenant relationship with Him. They don't stop being named "Israel." But they are disfellowshipped from that society.

Cutting a New Zealander off from the island does not mean he stops being a New Zealander. Even if he is forced to live elsewhere, he remains a part of that society, even in exile. He is simply being *cut off.*

 

[covenantee]

No one is saved by tradition, but traditions can be a good thing. Jesus was opposed to tradition that bypassed the important things.

They can be a good thing only if they lead to salvation in Christ.

How can Jewish tradition lead to salvation in Christ, when Jewish tradition explicitly rejects Christ?

 

[Timtofly]

the people alive when Jesus Returns and He Judges them, Those who did do righteous things are His 'sheep'. The rest are 'goats' and were never the Lord's people.

Then only kind people can be righteous?

 

[Randy Kluth]

They can be a good thing only if they lead to salvation in Christ.

How can Jewish tradition lead to salvation in Christ, when Jewish tradition explicitly rejects Christ?

There are a lot of good things that don't lead to salvation in Christ, eg eating and sleeping, making peace, being faithful, etc. Of course eternal life is essential to those who love fellowship with God, but in the non-Christian world there are lots of virtuous things that can be done without their leading to salvation.

I never said Jewish tradition leads to salvation in Christ. There are Jewish traditions that have nothing to do with rejecting Christ.

 

[covenantee]

There are a lot of good things that don't lead to salvation in Christ, eg eating and sleeping, making peace, being faithful, etc. Of course eternal life is essential to those who love fellowship with God, but in the non-Christian world there are lots of virtuous things that can be done without their leading to salvation.

I never said Jewish tradition leads to salvation in Christ. There are Jewish traditions that have nothing to do with rejecting Christ.

To be an orthodox Jew, you must reject Christ.

That is an indispensable part of orthodox Jewish tradition.

Multitudes believe that virtuous things will save them i.e. salvation by works. That blinds them to the reality that salvation is only by grace through faith.

 

[Keraz]

A person's name can mean any number of things, but the person it belongs to remains the same person regardless of what the name means. .

The use of the name; Israel by a group of apostate, atheistic, LBGT and Jesus rejecting peoples, is a different thing altogether.
It has resulted in much confusion and error among Christians and other peoples. Countries like Guatemala set up their embassies in Jerusalem to prove their alignment with Israel, as they think Israel are God's chosen people.

We must see people from their heart: their actions show their true beliefs. What Paul said in Romans 2:29 is the benchmark.

The true Israelites of God can be none other than all the faithful Christian individuals from all around the world. Any idea or belief otherwise, is a direct contradiction of the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

Then only kind people can be righteous?

Matthew 25:34-40 spells it out. We must do what we are capable of to spread the Gospel, Matthew 28:19-20, and to help others.