National Covenant

[covenantee]

Peter was calling for his fellow Jewish believers to continue in Israel's original calling to be a holy nation, despite the fact the vast majority of Jews had chosen to go the wrong way. This assumes that Peter understood Israel would be restored one day.

Peter's letter was not limited to Jews, but was rather to Christian believers in the referenced churches, which would have included both Jewish and Gentile converts from OT Judaism. In 1 Peter 2:9, he characterizes them correctly as a spiritual nation.

Peter was under no illusions about Israel being restored one day.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Peter's letter was not limited to Jews, but was rather to Christian believers in the referenced churches, which would have included both Jewish and Gentile converts from OT Judaism. In 1 Peter 2:9, he characterizes them correctly as a spiritual nation.

Peter was under no illusions about Israel being restored one day.

I do understand the argument. But one passage does not justify, for me, a complete change in the meaning of the word "Israel." But that's okay. If you have other passages and some explicit theology justifying this, I'd be curious to know what they are?

 

[covenantee]

I do understand the argument. But one passage does not justify, for me, a complete change in the meaning of the word "Israel." But that's okay. If you have other passages and some explicit theology justifying this, I'd be curious to know what they are?

Which specific verse(s) are you referring to?

 

[Keraz]

So, we shouldn't care about who a Hebrew is, and then you proceed to claim to know where they went after the exile? That's completely inconsistent and contradictory! If you don't care who a Hebrew is, why be concerned about who went where?

I realize this is a very vexed and confusing issue. I pursue it because God does too. Amos 9:9

Role Reversal:
When God shifted the entire means of salvation into the Spiritual realm and the ‘Chosen people’ from an ethnic group to all who would accept Jesus; 1 Peter 2:9-10, the identity of “Israel” was transformed into a Spiritual body. Thus, the only real Jew (or Israelite), is one who h as experienced the Spiritual rebirth which is only available through Jesus.
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, who is one outwardly…in the flesh

In his magnificent teaching addressed to Christians who are of Gentile descent, Paul goes on to tell the believers that those who are born again in the Spirit, are now the real Jews:
Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter of the law.


Obviously, this turned everything “upside down,” but it is widely misunderstood to this very day, as it seems that God still does help those who call them themselves Jews. What we must ascertain is just who it is that helps them. God or Satan?


Surely your turning of things upside down shall be as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? Or will the pot say of the potter: He has no understanding? Isaiah 29:16

The New Testament tells of events that occurred when the era of Spiritual salvation in Christ commenced, as those who were formerly chosen, based on their ethnicity, sought to retain their special position:
But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy went to the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are here also. Acts 17:5-6

Amos 8:2...the time is ripe for My people Israel. Never again will I pardon them.

Paul quoted an ominous prophecy: Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets: Behold; you despisers, wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your day, Luke 13:32, a work which you won’t believe, even though a man declares it to you. Habakkuk 1:5, Acts 13:40-41

God chose Jacob’s descendants to be the people who would bring the Light of Salvation to the Gentiles. Isaiah 49:3-6
They divided into two Houses; Israel and Judah. They both disobeyed the Lord, so God sent His Son to provide a way of Atonement for those who would accept it.
Judah did not, but those of the House of Israel, still scattered among the nations; have to a great extent; become the Christian peoples.


To the Ephesians, (who were classed as Gentiles by the Jews) Paul states they were once identified with the Spirit of Death, which was associated with the not chosen Gentiles – as opposed to the False Prophet/Spirit of Hell which was found in the Jews under the Old Covenant.
And you [Ephesians]…were dead in trespasses and sins. Ephesians 2:1

Paul goes on to say that it is that very Spirit of Death which now inhabits the children of disobedience. Ephesians 2:2

Paul also reminds the Ephesians that; they were, in times past considered Gentiles in the flesh, but now, through Jesus, they belong to a Spiritual body which is chosen by God.
But now in Christ Jesus you who before were far off are made near to God by the blood of Christ. Ephesians 2:13

Paul said the ethnic Jews were no longer to be considered Jews, Romans 2:28-29, but the Ephesian Christians were of a circumcision which is that of the heart.
Paul was careful to refer to the Christ rejecting Jews as “that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands. Ephesians 2:11


Writing to the Christians in Rome, the Apostle Paul eloquently described how Spiritual Israel, comprised of former ethnic Israelites and Gentiles, would reverse roles with those under the Old Covenant, and be Spiritually born again as the people of God.

As he says in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, You are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Romans 9:24-26

This shows the role reversal that happened at the Cross, in which Jewish Israel, full of the Spirit of anti-Christ, became part of the Death which inhabited the Gentiles.


The Christian Church, appointed to proclaim the Gospel to the world; is repeating the ancient apostasy and is fulfilling the prophecy of a last day’s falling away from the truth and following unscriptural doctrines.
His faithful servants, should be obedient to the Lord’s command to come out of ‘Babylon’, for her sins have reached unto heaven. Jeremiah 51:6

Go out; leave Babylon behind, keep yourselves pure, you that have the favour of the Lord. You will not have to leave in haste, or leave like fugitives, as the Lord will go before you and will be your rearguard. Isaiah 52:11-12


When the Lord destroys the ‘Babylon’ nations, He will whistle to call His faithful people from wherever they are, back to all of the holy land, where they will live in peace and prosperity. Zechariah 10:8-12

 

[Randy Kluth]

Which specific verse(s) are you referring to?

I was referring to you statement in post #101, where you cited 1 Peter 2.9.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I realize this is a very vexed and confusing issue. I pursue it because God does too. Amos 9:9

Role Reversal:
When God shifted the entire means of salvation into the Spiritual realm...

Let me stop you right here, because this is, I believe, the core of the problem and the reason for our disagreement. I do agree that Jesus changed the "means of salvation," but I do not believe he changed it from a non-spiritual realm into a spiritual realm.

I believe the Law was only ever meant to represent a temporal means of salvation, and not the means of obtaining Eternal Life. Eternal Salvation was always intended to be the domain of Christ and his work--not the work of the Law, which came through fallen men.

So salvation under the Law was purely temporal until Jesus came and rendered what was temporal eternal. And no way should we ever say that the temporal means of salvation under the Law was "unspiritual." Nothing could be farther from the truth!

and the ‘Chosen people’ from an ethnic group to all who would accept Jesus; 1 Peter 2:9-10, the identity of “Israel” was transformed into a Spiritual body. Thus, the only real Jew (or Israelite), is one who h as experienced the Spiritual rebirth which is only available through Jesus.
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, who is one outwardly…in the flesh

I believe you are taking Rom 2.28 out of context. It is talking about who among the Jews are legitimately spiritual, and who among them are not. It is not changing the definition of who a "Jew" is. Rather, it is talking about who a *faithful Jew* is, who a "true Jew" is.

Israel was always a "Spiritual Body," and was not transformed into a Spiritual Body by Christ. A faithful Jew is one who accepts and follows Jesus Christ. But not accepting him, he is still a genuine Jew, and a person's race and nationality still matter--they just don't matter with respect to meeting qualification for salvation in Christ.

Since you begin with the wrong premise, there is nothing more in your arguments that I need to deal with. It is your beginning assumption that is wrong, with all due respect.

 

[covenantee]

I was referring to you statement in post #101, where you cited 1 Peter 2.9.

1 Peter 2:9 is about the Church. Israel is unseen.

 

[Randy Kluth]

1 Peter 2:9 is about the Church. Israel is unseen.

I'm sorry, but we must disagree on that. Peter is quoting a verse that was applied directly to the nation Israel. And the letter itself is directly addressed to the Jewish People, specifically Christians among them.

 

[covenantee]

I'm sorry, but we must disagree on that. Peter is quoting a verse that was applied directly to the nation Israel. And the letter itself is directly addressed to the Jewish People, specifically Christians among them.

Peter's letter is addressed to the listed churches, comprised of both Jew and Gentile Christians.

1 Peter 2:9 contains a direct Gentile reference -- "out of darkness". That is a description of those whom Paul described as "having no hope, and without God in the world", i.e. unbelieving Gentiles. (Ephesians 2:12)

Israel is nowhere to be seen.

But yeah, we can disagree, won't be the first time.:)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Peter's letter is addressed to the listed churches, comprised of both Jew and Gentile Christians.

1 Peter 2:9 contains a direct Gentile reference -- "out of darkness". That is a description of those whom Paul described as "having no hope, and without God in the world", i.e. unbelieving Gentiles. (Ephesians 2:12)

Israel is nowhere to be seen.

But yeah, we can disagree, won't be the first time.:)

You're using a non sequitur argument. Just because "darkness" is used for the Gentile experience in paganism does not mean "darkness" does not apply to Israel in a period of backsliding. Clearly, Isaiah referred to Israel as "blind," or in darkness.

As I said, Israel is seen in 1 Peter because he is quoting a passage that directly speaks to Israel. It is a direct quote from the Pentateuch.

Exo 19.6 "you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

1 Pet 2.9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession

What "listed churches" are you referring to in 1 Peter?

 

[covenantee]

You're using a non sequitur argument. Just because "darkness" is used for the Gentile experience in paganism does not mean "darkness" does not apply to Israel in a period of backsliding. Clearly, Isaiah referred to Israel as "blind," or in darkness.

As I said, Israel is seen in 1 Peter because he is quoting a passage that directly speaks to Israel. It is a direct quote from the Pentateuch.

Exo 19.6 "you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

1 Pet 2.9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession

What "listed churches" are you referring to in 1 Peter?

From Jesus Himself appearing to Paul on the Damascus road:

Acts 26
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

These Churches:
1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Israel is nowhere to be seen.

 

[Randy Kluth]

From Jesus Himself appearing to Paul on the Damascus road:

Acts 26
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

These Churches:
1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Israel is nowhere to be seen.

Did you not understand my claim that you're using a non sequitur argument? Billy was called "blind." So only people named "Billy" are "blind."

You're saying that "darkness" was applied to the Gentiles. Then is it logical to assume "darkness" cannot be applied to Israel, as well? Obviously, "darkness" applies to whoever is being targeted in context. If Israel is called "blind," then "darkness" applies to them.

You say nothing about Israel exists in 1 Peter 2. But I showed you Peter was quoting directly a passage that was applied exclusively to Israel.

I asked you to provide the "list of churches," and you provide only cities where believers were scattered. Where is your sense of logic in all this?

 

[Keraz]

but I do not believe he changed it from a non-spiritual realm into a spiritual realm.

But Jesus did just that.
He departed to heaven and left His Apostles and ultimately every Christian to fulfil the Great Commission. The faithful people of God are now those who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour; a spiritual conversion from being a Gentile; outside the 'pale', to being one of God's children.

Israel was always a "Spiritual Body," and was not transformed into a Spiritual Body by Christ.

No it wasn't. Israel was just a group of people, mostly actually descended from Abraham. [Note; the Arabs are also descendants of Abraham]
They failed miserably to do what God required of them and todays Jews clearly evidence their continued failure to be the people God wanted.
Who it was that Jesus chose, is indisputable; 1 Peter 2:9-10

The joke is about how the Jews have fooled Christendom, esp the American Church, to their great advantage as they would not have survived their wars without huge American assistance, which continues today.
The Jewish leadership knows very well that they are no longer the chosen people of God, but they laugh all the way to the bank and encourage the big donations from Christian groups, who want Jewish Israel to go thru tribulation, while they sit up in heaven, strumming harps.
What a big fat Satanic lie!!!!!

 

[Randy Kluth]

But Jesus did just that.
He departed to heaven and left His Apostles and ultimately every Christian to fulfil the Great Commission. The faithful people of God are now those who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour; a spiritual conversion from being a Gentile; outside the 'pale', to being one of God's children.

No it wasn't. Israel was just a group of people, mostly actually descended from Abraham. [Note; the Arabs are also descendants of Abraham]
They failed miserably to do what God required of them and todays Jews clearly evidence their continued failure to be the people God wanted.
Who it was that Jesus chose, is indisputable; 1 Peter 2:9-10

The joke is about how the Jews have fooled Christendom, esp the American Church, to their great advantage as they would not have survived their wars without huge American assistance, which continues today.
The Jewish leadership knows very well that they are no longer the chosen people of God, but they laugh all the way to the bank and encourage the fat donations from Christian groups, who want Jewish Israel to go thru tribulation, while they sit up in heaven, strumming harps.
What a big fat Satanic lie!!!!!

Sorry, I couldn't disagree more. Israel is the model for the nations of the world. There isn't a nation in history that would end up any different from the way Israel ended up.

Still, I believe God is in the business of restoring nations. Christian nations have gone through reformations and revivals. Israel has experienced that too, such as in the days of the kings Hezekiah and Josiah.

I don't expect any godly nation to remain godly in perpetuity in the current age. But I won't dismiss the promises of God that ensures that there will be nations of faith, including Israel. Remember the prophecy of the Dry Bones!

 

[covenantee]

Did you not understand my claim that you're using a non sequitur argument? Billy was called "blind." So only people named "Billy" are "blind."

You're saying that "darkness" was applied to the Gentiles. Then is it logical to assume "darkness" cannot be applied to Israel, as well? Obviously, "darkness" applies to whoever is being targeted in context. If Israel is called "blind," then "darkness" applies to them.

You say nothing about Israel exists in 1 Peter 2. But I showed you Peter was quoting directly a passage that was applied exclusively to Israel.

I asked you to provide the "list of churches," and you provide only cities where believers were scattered. Where is your sense of logic in all this?

If you can cite any Scripture that associated Old Covenant Israelites with darkness as directly as Jesus associated unbelieving Gentiles with darkness, I can consider your argument.

In fact, both are true. Unbelief is darkness in both Jew and Gentile. So when Peter declares that "ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light", he is referring to the calling out from the darkness of unbelief of both Jew and Gentile, which precisely describes the Church.

When Peter said "ye" in 1 Peter 2:9, he was addressing his audiences, who were Christian congregations comprised of both Jews and Gentiles in the listed Roman provinces.

There is not a scintilla of NT support for a future kingdom of Israel. That is a dispensational delusion.

Why are you attempting to perpetuate dispensational delusion?

Under the New Covenant, there is one Body of Christ. It is not Israel.

It is the Church, whom Peter was addressing.

 

[Randy Kluth]

If you can cite any Scripture that associated Old Covenant Israelites with darkness as directly as Jesus associated unbelieving Gentiles with darkness, I can consider your argument.

One of the 1st Scriptures to come to mind was:
Matt 4.16 "the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.”

Jesus quoted this from Isa 2.
Isa 9.2 The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of deep darkness a light has dawned.

There is also this from Isaiah.
Isa 29.18 In that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll,
and out of gloom and darkness
the eyes of the blind will see.

In fact, both are true. Unbelief is darkness in both Jew and Gentile. So when Peter declares that "ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light", he is referring to the calling out from the darkness of unbelief of both Jew and Gentile, which precisely describes the Church.

Exactly. "Darkness" applies to whom it applies *in context.* It is an interpretive fallacy to assign a particular application of a word in every place the word is found in Scriptures. The context rules.

When Peter said "ye" in 1 Peter 2:9, he was addressing his audiences, who were Christian congregations comprised of both Jews and Gentiles in the listed Roman provinces.

There is not a scintilla of NT support for a future kingdom of Israel. That is a dispensational delusion.

But I'm not a Dispensationalist, nor were those in the Early Church who believes in a future Kingdom of Israel. The Jewish Hope is older than the Church itself. It came through the Prophets of Israel for Israel.

Surely you exaggerate! Not a "scintilla of support?" The Hope of Israel has been believed in for millennia "without a scintilla of support?" ;)

 

[covenantee]

One of the 1st Scriptures to come to mind was:
Matt 4.16 "the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.”

Jesus quoted this from Isa 2.
Isa 9.2 The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of deep darkness a light has dawned.

There is also this from Isaiah.
Isa 29.18 In that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll,
and out of gloom and darkness
the eyes of the blind will see.

All of those apply to both Jew and Gentile. Don't forget that Israel itself was comprised of both.

Exactly. "Darkness" applies to whom it applies *in context.* It is an interpretive fallacy to assign a particular application of a word in every place the word is found in Scriptures. The context rules.

True. So Peter was addressing those who had been called out of darkness, which includes both Jew and Gentile, which describes the Church.

But I'm not a Dispensationalist, nor were those in the Early Church who believes in a future Kingdom of Israel. The Jewish Hope is older than the Church itself. It came through the Prophets of Israel for Israel.

Surely you exaggerate! Not a "scintilla of support?" The Hope of Israel has been believed in for millennia "without a scintilla of support?"

Cite any NT Scripture which predicts a future kingdom of Israel.

 

[Randy Kluth]

All of those apply to both Jew and Gentile. Don't forget that Israel itself was comprised of both.

The fact that there were converts to Judaism from pagan nations does not at all mean that "Israel" represented a plurality of nations!
Amos 3.2 “You only have I chosen
of all the families of the earth.

What you are doing is redefining "Israel" from a single nation to a group of many nations. But the verses using the word "darkness" applied singly to the nation of Israel. The fact there were foreign converts doesn't change that fact one bit!

Cite any NT Scripture which predicts a future kingdom of Israel.

Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

The fact is, Jesus' Gospel mission was predicated upon confirming the hope of Israel 1st! Paul goes into great detail to confirm this in Rom 9-11. As well, he also said "to the Jew 1st, and also to the Gentile."

 

[Marty fox]

Whenever religions become national it never works and eventually conforms and becomes more of man’s religions with man’s rules views.

Take for example the time from Adam to the flood,Israel or even Christianity in the Roman Empire. Even so called Christian nations like England, Canada and the United States. Christianity thrives within people when it’s not the true national religion or even under persecution because it’s pure within the people.

Thus I believe it’s not Gods desire God wants the individual heart not the national religion. The real Israel that the bible speaks about is true Israel made up of both Jew and gentile not national Israel.

 

[covenantee]

The fact that there were converts to Judaism from pagan nations does not at all mean that "Israel" represented a plurality of nations!
Amos 3.2 “You only have I chosen
of all the families of the earth.

It certainly does mean that, was true from the birth of Israel and throughout its entire history, and is in no way invalidated by Amos.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

Explained previously.

Jesus' response to the disciples' question is instructive. He refers to times and seasons.

Exegetically, times and seasons are associated with the day of the Lord, which is the final end of all things temporal.

Paul clarifies it.

1 Thessalonians 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Peter completes it.

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


There is not the slightest hint of a restored carnal Israelitic kingdom; and any reference thereafter to a "kingdom of Israel" never again appears in Scripture.

Jesus had made it clear that Israel was stripped of its kingdom, and under impending judgment and destruction. (Matthew 21:33-45)

That judgment and destruction fell upon it in 70 AD.

The fact is, Jesus' Gospel mission was predicated upon confirming the hope of Israel 1st! Paul goes into great detail to confirm this in Rom 9-11. As well, he also said "to the Jew 1st, and also to the Gentile."

Jesus' Gospel mission was to establish His Kingdom, which He in no uncertain terms did.

Mark 1
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Nowhere does Jesus or Paul or any NT writer predict a restored Israelitic kingdom.

No such NT Scripture exists.