National Covenant

[Randy Kluth]

Covenantee has clearly shown you "Several Times" your claims aren't biblical, Post #11 is screaming the truth to Randy and the forum, as you "Continue" to push your teaching, after being shown the truth again and again, its "Pride" in my opinion

I answered Covenantee in post #17, and answered every objection in this thread that I'm aware of. You haven't disproven anything I've said in any of my posts, and yet indicate the issue was settled in post #11?

Apparently, you are of the position that we just need to join the majority opinion and do what you say? What happened to honest disagreement and actual discussion of a subject?

Where are your arguments? At least Covenantee gives his views along with reasons for his views.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Zech 11.10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.

This is clear evidence that God makes covenants with *nations.* Even though they are destined to be broken by those same nations, just as Israel did, the point is--God makes covenants with nations.

In the NT the covenants God makes with nations are Christian covenants. And that's because God promised Abraham a family of nations, a family of faith. Since the NT covenant is all-encompassing, God's individual covenants with individual nations take place within those auspices.

In the same way Hebrews made covenants with one another under the over-riding auspices of the OT Law. Nothing prevented individuals or groups from making pledges to one another, or covenants.

The nation of Israel pledged loyalty to David when he became king. Marriage partners pledged loyalty to one another. I don't understand the anger of one or two here when I hold to a different view than theirs if I at least have a biblical basis for it?

If you must disagree, why not disagree agreeably, without all of the animosity, insult, and name-calling? Obviously, not everybody flies into a rage when they disagree with me. May the Lord bless those who maintain their peace!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Zech 11.10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.

This is clear evidence that God makes covenants with *nations.* Even though they are destined to be broken by those same nations, just as Israel did, the point is--God makes covenants with nations.

The Hebrew word translated as "the nations" in that translation of the verse can also refer to people in general or to the people of a particular nation or tribe. Here is the KJV translation of that verse:

Zechariah 11:10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.

See how it is translated here as "the people" instead of "the nations"? We see repeatedly throughout scripture that God makes covenants with individual people, not entire nations. The old, Mosaic covenant was made with the Israelite people. The new covenant was made for all people who accept Christ and His sacrifice. What covenant did God ever make with nations?

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Hebrew word translated as "the nations" in that translation of the verse can also refer to people in general or to the people of a particular nation or tribe. Here is the KJV translation of that verse:

Zechariah 11:10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.

See how it is translated here as "the people" instead of "the nations"? We see repeatedly throughout scripture that God makes covenants with individual people, not entire nations. The old, Mosaic covenant was made with the Israelite people. The new covenant was made for all people who accept Christ and His sacrifice. What covenant did God ever make with nations?

It's a good question. It appears to me that the political state was not described by a particular word in this regard. So the idea of "nations," biblically, referred to people grouped by their regions and common culture. "Ethnos" conveys this idea. On the other hand, "laos" has more to do with a race of people, whether in a region or scattered abroad.

So neither ethnos nor laos excludes the idea of a political nation--it really depends on context. However, the way both words are used, in conjunction with Israel and in regard to biblical usage, the idea can easily convey a people defined by their land and by their common culture, which is what we call "nations" today.

To say that "laos" excludes our sense of "nations," as in people defined by their particular regions, seems nonsensical to me, particularly since that is what "Israel" means, a race associated with their land. The implication is pointing towards a common political state, namely a monarchy.

In a practical sense, God made covenant with *all* Israel, and not with just a small select group of people within the nation. I would disagree with you here, if that's what you meant?

The fact is, the passage indicates God made covenant with a great multitude--not select people. That seems wrong in the theological sense that God expressed the desire to save *all,* and not just a select few. But it's a good question for someone more adept than me at the language.

Importantly, the NIV translators, who are language experts, translated the word by context into "nations." That settles it for me. This isn't just a select elite group of people that God chose to make covenant with, but rather, an entire entity, good and bad, to give everyone an equal chance before judging some as successes and others as failures.

 

[covenantee]

It's a good question. It appears to me that the political state was not described by a particular word in this regard. So the idea of "nations," biblically, referred to people grouped by their regions and common culture. "Ethnos" conveys this idea. On the other hand, "laos" has more to do with a race of people, whether in a region or scattered abroad.

So neither ethnos nor laos excludes the idea of a political nation--it really depends on context. However, the way both words are used, in conjunction with Israel and in regard to biblical usage, the idea can easily convey a people defined by their land and by their common culture, which is what we call "nations" today.

To say that "laos" excludes our sense of "nations," as in people defined by their particular regions, seems nonsensical to me, particularly since that is what "Israel" means, a race associated with their land. The implication is pointing towards a common political state, namely a monarchy.

In a practical sense, God made covenant with *all* Israel, and not with just a small select group of people within the nation. I would disagree with you here, if that's what you meant?

The fact is, the passage indicates God made covenant with a great multitude--not select people. That seems wrong in the theological sense that God expressed the desire to save *all,* and not just a select few. But it's a good question for someone more adept than me at the language.

Importantly, the NIV translators, who are language experts, translated the word by context into "nations." That settles it for me. This isn't just a select elite group of people that God chose to make covenant with, but rather, an entire entity, good and bad, to give everyone an equal chance before judging some as successes and others as failures.

The definition of a valid covenant stipulates a relationship between two parties, in which each has responsibilities which must be fulfilled, in order for the covenant to be established and to continue.

Failure by either party to fulfill its responsibilities results in a breached covenant, which releases the other party from its responsibilities, and grants it the right to bring judgment against the breacher.

Our responsibilities under God(s) Covenant(s) are faith and obedience.

You claim "that God chose to make covenant with, but rather, an entire entity, good and bad".

"Bad" means that the covenant was breached, releasing God from His responsibilities, and bringing His judgment upon the breachers.

We see the results in the deaths of thousands of Israelites in the OT at the Hand of God.

Explain how a breached covenant can still satisfy the definition and requirements of a valid covenant.

It cannot.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The definition of a valid covenant stipulates a relationship between two parties, in which each has responsibilities which must be fulfilled, in order for the covenant to be established and to continue.

Failure by either party to fulfill its responsibilities results in a breached covenant, which releases the other party from its responsibilities, and grants it the right to bring judgment against the breacher.

Our responsibilities under God(s) Covenant(s) are faith and obedience.

You claim "that God chose to make covenant with, but rather, an entire entity, good and bad".

"Bad" means that the covenant was breached, releasing God from His responsibilities, and bringing His judgment upon the breachers.

We see the results in the deaths of thousands of Israelites in the OT at the Hand of God.

Explain how a breached covenant can still satisfy the definition and requirements of a valid covenant.

It cannot.

The covenant is made with all *before* there is a breach. How can people breach a covenant if no covenant is made with them to start with?

 

[covenantee]

The covenant is made with all *before* there is a breach. How can people breach a covenant if no covenant is made with them to start with?

A covenant is not in force and effect until each party begins to fulfill its associated responsibilities.

God offered His Covenant to each individual Israelite. Is that what you mean by "made"?

If an Israelite did not accept His Covenant and begin to fulfill his responsibilities, the penalty was death.

If an Israelite accepted His Covenant and began to fulfill his responsibilities, but later rejected, i.e. breached, His Covenant and no longer fulfilled his responsibilities, the penalty was death.

You are right that there was no breach in the first scenario.

But the consequences in both scenarios were the same.

And they were individual consequences.

 

[Randy Kluth]

A covenant is not in force and effect until each party begins to fulfill its associated responsibilities.

God offered His Covenant to each individual Israelite. Is that what you mean by "made"?

If an Israelite did not accept His Covenant and begin to fulfill his responsibilities, the penalty was death.

If an Israelite accepted His Covenant and began to fulfill his responsibilities, but later rejected, i.e. breached, His Covenant and no longer fulfilled his responsibilities, the penalty was death.

You are right that there was no breach in the first scenario.

But the consequences in both scenarios were the same.

And they were individual consequences.

Yes, I think that God *offered* blessings when Israel determined, both individually and as a nation, to obey the Law. But He *made* covenant with Israel *before* they had chosen either way, to obey or to disobey.

So the covenant was *made* with Israel from the start, as a proposition to bless those who obey and to curse those who disobey. All Israel accepted the terms of the covenant from the start.

It is more than *individual* choice, however, because there is such a thing as temptation and group think. When leaven begins to leaven an entire society, many individuals are caught up in the sin, and the nation, as a whole, falls into similar sin.

As such, the whole nation is penalized, notwithstanding the fact there are always a few righteous ones in the midst of that fallen nation. God always has a testimony.

 

[Keraz]

When the Lord does make the New Covenant with His faithful Christian people, then what Hebrews 8:6-12 says, will happen.
It is false teaching to say that any of it is operational now.

 

[Randy Kluth]

When the Lord does make the New Covenant with His faithful Christian people, then what Hebrews 8:6-12 says, will happen.
It is false teaching to say that any of it is operational now.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "false teaching," implying some kind of heretical belief. But I do believe the promise, made in Jer 31, of a new covenant made with Israel has yet to take place. Jesus put his new covenant in motion at the cross. But it will not apply to the Jewish nation until Christ comes again. It is available to the Jewish People today. But prophetically we're told it won't happen to the entire nation until their punishment as a nation is completed.0.

I know you have a different idea of who "national Israel" is, in this regard. You believe it is the Christiana population--not just Jewish believers. I happen to think Jer 31 was written to national Israel, namely the Jewish People.

Jer 31.31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.

 

[Keraz]

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "false teaching,"

If the effects of the New Covenant as detailed in Hebrews 8:6-12, are not the reality today, then to say the NC is made already is wrong and teaches error.

I know you have a different idea of who "national Israel" is, in this regard. You believe it is the Christiana population--not just Jewish believers. I happen to think Jer 31 was written to national Israel, namely the Jewish People.

For a start, national Israel was far more than Jews. They only represent 2 of the 12 tribes and still do today. Even Jeremiah 31:31 makes this distinction.

What you and most seem to miss, is the many Prophesies which vividly describe the virtual demise of Jewish Israel.
They have had nearly 2000 years to accept Jesus as the Messiah. They still reject Him and nowhere is it said they will as a nation.

 

[Randy Kluth]

If the effects of the New Covenant as detailed in Hebrews 8:6-12, are not the reality today, then to say the NC is made already is wrong and teaches error.

For a start, national Israel was far more than Jews. They only represent 2 of the 12 tribes and still do today. Even Jeremiah 31:31 makes this distinction.

What you and most seem to miss, is the many Prophesies which vividly describe the virtual demise of Jewish Israel.
They have had nearly 2000 years to accept Jesus as the Messiah. They still reject Him and nowhere is it said they will as a nation.

I've said this to you before, but I'll remind you. The 2 tribes in the south were only tribal regions which was becoming more of a mish-mash of all the tribes. We read that after the nation divided into north and south, many from the north joined the southern region in order to properly worship at Jerusalem.

Consequently, when the restoration of Judah took place after the Babylonian Captivity, all 12 tribes were represented in that restoration. The northern tribes who had retained their idolatrous standing went into exile, never to be restored. They were lost among the nations, due to their idolatry. Those who properly repented by returning to the Law in Jerusalem became the true heirs of Israel.

Ezra 6.17 For the dedication of this house of God they offered a hundred bulls, two hundred rams, four hundred male lambs and, as a sin offering for all Israel, twelve male goats, one for each of the tribes of Israel.
8.35 Then the exiles who had returned from captivity sacrificed burnt offerings to the God of Israel: twelve bulls for all Israel, ninety-six rams, seventy-seven male lambs and, as a sin offering, twelve male goats. All this was a burnt offering to the Lord.

2 Chron 11.13 The priests and Levites from all their districts throughout Israel sided with him. 14 The Levites even abandoned their pasturelands and property and came to Judah and Jerusalem, because Jeroboam and his sons had rejected them as priests of the Lord 15 when he appointed his own priests for the high places and for the goat and calf idols he had made. 16 Those from every tribe of Israel who set their hearts on seeking the Lord, the God of Israel, followed the Levites to Jerusalem to offer sacrifices to the Lord, the God of their ancestors. 17 They strengthened the kingdom of Judah and supported Rehoboam son of Solomon three years, following the ways of David and Solomon during this time.

 

[covenantee]

When the Lord does make the New Covenant with His faithful Christian people, then what Hebrews 8:6-12 says, will happen.
It is false teaching to say that any of it is operational now.

It is the uninterrupted teaching of more than 17 centuries of Christian orthodoxy.

The disciples received it. (Matthew 26:28)

I and Randy K have received it. (2 Corinthians 3:6)

Sorry about you.

 

[Keraz]

I've said this to you before, but I'll remind you. The 2 tribes in the south were only tribal regions which was becoming more of a mish-mash of all the tribes. We read that after the nation divided into north and south, many from the north joined the southern region in order to properly worship at Jerusalem.

I am well aware that many from the 10 Northern tribes did join Judah at the split and a few continue to become Jews even now.
But the bulk of the House of Israel remain scattered among the nations. There is scriptural, historical, archaeological and heraldic proofs of this truth.

Frankly, I can't see why you fail to see how God's Plan for Israel is working. It was God's Plan that Israel separated into two entities. One has returned to the holy Land, the other comprises of mainly Christian peoples; the ones Jesus came to save. Matthew 15:24

 

[Keraz]

It is the uninterrupted teaching of more than 17 centuries of Christian orthodoxy.

The disciples received it. (Matthew 26:28)

I and Randy K have received it. (2 Corinthians 3:6)

Sorry about you.

Do you then NOT have to teach on another; Know the Lord? Hebrews 8:11

 

[covenantee]

Do you then NOT have to teach on another; Know the Lord? Hebrews 8:11

Keraz, you understand who God's Chosen People are.

You just don't understand the fulness of what He has given us.

His New Covenant.

 

[Keraz]

You just don't understand the fulness of what He has given us.

I understand the fulness of what the Lord has Promised us.
The New Covenant is not made yet. We just have the future Promise of it.

None of the four things listed in Hebrews 8:10-12 have fully happened yet:

1/ I shall set My Laws in their hearts.

2/ I shall be their God and they will be My people.

3/ They will not teach each other, for all will know the Lord.

4/ I shall pardon their sins and remember their wickedness no more.


The New Covenant will be made between the Lord and His corporate Christian peoples, after the Sixth Seal event has cleared and cleansed all of the holy Land, and all the righteous, faithful Christian peoples will migrate to live there: Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:26

Ezekiel 34:25 I shall make a Covenant with them for their peace and prosperity....

Isaiah 61:8..... I will grant them a sure reward and make an everlasting Covenant with them.

Isaiah 59:20-21 The Lord will come as a Redeemer to Zion and to those descended from Jacob who repent of their rebellion. This is the Covenant I will make with them: My Spirit will abide with them thru all the following generations.

Jeremiah 32:37-40 I shall gather My people from all the lands where they now live......I will make an everlasting Covenant with them, it will be a joy for Me to do them good.

Ezekiel 37:26 [After the Spiritual regeneration and the rejoining of the tribes] I shall make an everlasting Covenant with them, for their peace and prosperity and their numbers will greatly increase. I will put My Sanctuary in their midst, where it will remain for all time.


Isaiah 33:17-24 Those who live righteously and speak the truth, who do not take bribes, rejecting all evil – they will dwell securely with ample food and water. Psalms 85:12
Your eyes will see a King in his glory and view a Land that stretches into the distance. Numbers 24:15-19, Genesis 15:18
You will call to mind what you once feared. Where are they now? Those barbarous people whose speech you could not understand. Psalms 58:10-11, Psalms 37:8-15, Jeremiah 12:14-16
Look upon Zion, Jerusalem, city of sacred festivals. A secure abode, never again to be moved. Amos 9:13-15
There the Lord will be in His majesty, a peaceful place. A place of broad rivers, but no ships will sail there.
The Lord is our judge and lawgiver. He is our King who will save us. Zechariah 8:7-8
Your rigging hangs loose, the mast is not secure and your sails are not set.
Luke 12:35-36. Then all will take a share in the spoils. Zechariah 9:17
No one living in Zion will get sick and the sins of the people will be pardoned.

Micah 7:18 Who is God like You? You take away our guilt and forgive the sins of the faithful remnant of Your people......

 

[Randy Kluth]

I am well aware that many from the 10 Northern tribes did join Judah at the split and a few continue to become Jews even now.
But the bulk of the House of Israel remain scattered among the nations. There is scriptural, historical, archaeological and heraldic proofs of this truth.

Please provide proof? For example, which Hebrews in exile are not "Jews?" Where in exile are the tribes of Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah, for example?

Frankly, I can't see why you fail to see how God's Plan for Israel is working. It was God's Plan that Israel separated into two entities. One has returned to the holy Land, the other comprises of mainly Christian peoples; the ones Jesus came to save. Matthew 15:24

God's plan called for beginning with a single nation, and later expanding to call many nations. Not all nations have been called to Christianity like the European nations, and those colonized by them. Some nations have remained pagan throughout the centuries.

But God called nations that were willing to share the faith of Abraham. He only began with Israel. He did not divide Israel in two to make one part Jewish and the other part European Christian. They all have their own calling, one calling for Israel and another call for all the other Christian nations.

 

[Keraz]

Please provide proof? For example, which Hebrews in exile are not "Jews?" Where in exile are the tribes of Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah, for example?

Who cares about who is a 'Hebrew'. That name is redundant, as the citizens of Israel are a mixture of many nations.
God certainly doesn't! His faithful people come from every tribe, race, nation and language. The dedicated nation, of the 'peculiar people', as 1 Peter 2:9 says.

Regarding the whereabouts of the ancient tribes; extensive research has identified the general areas that they migrated to and how the Blessings promised have benefited them. For instance; Asher is mainly in Scotland and they have the North sea oil. Deuteronomy 33:24

God's plan called for beginning with a single nation

God's Plan is still to get a nation of people who will freely love Him and keep His Commandments. The 'nation', people group; who bear the proper fruit: Every faithful Christian person.
Very few of who you call Hebrews will be among them.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Who cares about who is a 'Hebrew'. That name is redundant, as the citizens of Israel are a mixture of many nations.
God certainly doesn't! His faithful people come from every tribe, race, nation and language. The dedicated nation, of the 'peculiar people', as 1 Peter 2:9 says.

Regarding the whereabouts of the ancient tribes; extensive research has identified the general areas that they migrated to and how the Blessings promised have benefited them. For instance; Asher is mainly in Scotland and they have the North sea oil. Deuteronomy 33:24

So, we shouldn't care about who a Hebrew is, and then you proceed to claim to know where they went after the exile? That's completely inconsistent and contradictory! If you don't care who a Hebrew is, why be concerned about who went where?

God's Plan is still to get a nation of people who will freely love Him and keep His Commandments. The 'nation', people group; who bear the proper fruit: Every faithful Christian person.
Very few of who you call Hebrews will be among them.

Christians are indeed a "people group," but they are not a single "nation." You get that from a bad interpretation of one passage. You turn the literal meaning of a word into a metaphor. In this case, the context does not require it. Peter was referring to the nation Israel quite literally, in accord with their original calling.

Exo 19.6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’
1 Pet 2.9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation.

Peter was calling for his fellow Jewish believers to continue in Israel's original calling to be a holy nation, despite the fact the vast majority of Jews had chosen to go the wrong way. This assumes that Peter understood Israel would be restored one day.