National Covenant

[Randy Kluth]

Whenever religions become national it never works and eventually conforms and becomes more of man’s religions with man’s rules views.

Take for example the time from Adam to the flood,Israel or even Christianity in the Roman Empire. Even so called Christian nations like England, Canada and the United States. Christianity thrives within people when it’s not the true national religion or even under persecution because it’s pure within the people.

Thus I believe it’s not Gods desire God wants the individual heart not the national religion. The real Israel that the bible speaks about is true Israel made up of both Jew and gentile not national Israel.

We'll have to partly agree/partly disagree brother. ;)

Yes on the defective character of national structures. But no on the idea that nations are themselves bad. I believe God not only chose to use them, but also promised them. But we'll agree on the most important things, like life in Christ! :)

 

[Timtofly]

Thus I believe it’s not Gods desire God wants the individual heart not the national religion. The real Israel that the bible speaks about is true Israel made up of both Jew and gentile not national Israel.

Pretty sure this is the reality of the last 1992 years. Why is this even an argument?

You and others are denying a future Kingdom after a Second Coming when Jesus literally comes back to earth. No one is arguing the condition from the Cross until the Second Coming.

When you apply current reality to Jesus as King literally on earth, the specific definition of a Second Coming, an earthly ministry just like the first century ministry, and claim Jesus as King does not bring change to this evil world, you are wrongly placing wickedness and sin into the Lord's Day of righteousness without Satan around.

There is no real Israel. Israel ceased around 770BC. Judah ceased around 70AD. The church is not Israel. Isreal became a Nation in 1948, even if you all deny common sense reality to that fact. Definitely not Moses' Israel. They are all dead.

All of Israel today will all be dead as well. This Adamic flesh is not going into the Millennium, so genetics really is pointless to use as some lame excuse. The soul does not carry genetics into the Millennium. God gives those alive in the Millennium a new permanent incorruptible physical body with the proper genetic makeup, as God sees fit.

The Day of the Lord is not some human construct nor undertaking.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It certainly does mean that, was true from the birth of Israel and throughout its entire history, and is in no way invalidated by Amos.

If we cannot agree on the definition of words, like "Israel," then we cannot come to any theological understanding. To me, "Israel" represents a single nation, notwithstanding the fact foreigners integrated into that nation.

The fact God was non-racist, and allowed people to convert to Judaism, does not in any way mitigate against Israel being Israel! The fact Israel contained non-nationals does not in any way mean Amos was describing the Gentile nations when he addressed "Israel!"

"Israel" does not equal "Gentile nations." Gentile converts became part of Israel.

There is not the slightest hint of a restored carnal Israelitic kingdom; and any reference thereafter to a "kingdom of Israel" never again appears in Scripture.

Any nation that converts to God converts from a carnal state of being to a new state of being. God did not convert "spiritual Gentiles" when he sent His Gospel to them. He sent out His Gospel to "carnal Gentiles" in search of meaning, in search of fulfillment, in search of truth.

The same is true of Israel. Though the nation has fallen, God has promised to restore them. The Disciples of Jesus knew that. That's why they asked Jesus "when" Israel would be restored.

That is more than a "slight hint!" That is a glaring hole in your argument that Israel cannot be converted. Not only so, but theologically Christian Salvation has come for the lost. To deny an entire nation of people can't be saved flies in the face of NT Theology.

None of this means every last person in a nation must be born again. What it means is that the nation can be saved from destruction, from the wrath of God, when they commit, as a people, to Christian morals. Not every one will be born again. But every citizen can swear allegiance to a system that overall will save the nation from God sending judgment upon that nation.

Jesus had made it clear that Israel was stripped of its kingdom, and under impending judgment and destruction. (Matthew 21:33-45)

That judgment and destruction fell upon it in 70 AD.

We both already know this. Your insinuation that Israel's judgment is forever is unfounded and unnecessary to the statement.

Jesus' Gospel mission was to establish His Kingdom, which He in no uncertain terms did.

No, he said his Gospel message was that the future Kingdom is "near." Not *here,* but *near!*

Mark 1
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Nowhere does Jesus or Paul or any NT writer predict a restored Israelitic kingdom.

No such NT Scripture exists.

It's in Rom 9-11. But if we can't agree on what words mean, then it's hopeless.

 

[covenantee]

Any nation that converts to God converts from a carnal state of being to a new state of being. God did not convert "spiritual Gentiles" when he sent His Gospel to them. He sent out His Gospel to "carnal Gentiles" in search of meaning, in search of fulfillment, in search of truth.

The same is true of Israel. Though the nation has fallen, God has promised to restore them. The Disciples of Jesus knew that. That's why they asked Jesus "when" Israel would be restored.

That is more than a "slight hint!" That is a glaring hole in your argument that Israel cannot be converted. Not only so, but theologically Christian Salvation has come for the lost. To deny an entire nation of people can't be saved flies in the face of NT Theology.

None of this means every last person in a nation must be born again. What it means is that the nation can be saved from destruction, from the wrath of God, when they commit, as a people, to Christian morals. Not every one will be born again. But every citizen can swear allegiance to a system that overall will save the nation from God sending judgment upon that nation.

I keep asking for specific NT Scripture verses predicting a restored physical kingdom of Israel. You have not provided them. I've explained Acts 1:6-7 more than once. You've ignored it.

No, he said his Gospel message was that the future Kingdom is "near." Not *here,* but *near!*

Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Explain how God has translated us into a Kingdom which is not here.

It's in Rom 9-11. But if we can't agree on what words mean, then it's hopeless.

Explain where a restored physical kingdom of Israel is predicted anywhere in Romans 9-11. I keep asking for specific Scripture verses. You have not provided them.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I keep asking for specific NT Scripture verses predicting a restored physical kingdom of Israel. You have not provided them. I've explained Acts 1:6-7 more than once. You've ignored it.

Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Explain how God has translated us into a Kingdom which is not here.

Explain where a restored physical kingdom of Israel is predicted anywhere in Romans 9-11. I keep asking for specific Scripture verses. You have not provided them.

You're wrong. I've provided the same passages over and over, and have not ignored your responses. I simply disagree with your responses. I cite the same passages because they are the same arguments. The "Jewish Hope" is recognized by Jews and Christians as a major theme in OT Prophecy. Acts 1 indicates Jesus' Disciples were still expecting that. Jesus' Gospel Message indicated it was "near," and coming. Paul taught it in Rom 9-11--I need not provide the specific verses because I've done so a bunch of times, and I just get the typical denial that it means what it says, or it means something else.

I'm not here to change your mind, but to testify to what I believe is the truth. I have absolutely no need for you to agree with me. I have a much greater need to be found pleasing to the Lord. My efforts are designed to agree with what God wants to do and say. I think we can both agree on that?

 

[Marty fox]

We'll have to partly agree/partly disagree brother. ;)

Yes on the defective character of national structures. But no on the idea that nations are themselves bad. I believe God not only chose to use them, but also promised them. But we'll agree on the most important things, like life in Christ! :)

Thanks but I wasn’t saying that nations are bad (they actually are because no one is good but God).

What I am actually saying is that eventually people and nations conform. This happened with the flood, In past nations built on Christian principles and even countless churches.

This is why Jesus came because humans are imperfect and conform just look what has become legal in the western world and even some churches. Jesus wants the heart of people not religious nations.

 

[Marty fox]

I keep asking for specific NT Scripture verses predicting a restored physical kingdom of Israel. You have not provided them. I've explained Acts 1:6-7 more than once. You've ignored it.



Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Explain how God has translated us into a Kingdom which is not here.



Explain where a restored physical kingdom of Israel is predicted anywhere in Romans 9-11. I keep asking for specific Scripture verses. You have not provided them.

Amen Colossians 1:12-13 was written as a current reality in Paul’s time

 

[Randy Kluth]

Here are the passages on Israel's promised restoration, OT and NT. The rebuttals of this are that 1) Israel has been cast off forever, and 2) that Israel actually means *many Christian nations.* Both of these arguments are absurd on their face, despite the fact for many centuries the Christian Church began to deny the Hope of Israel. Israel does mean Israel, the nation--not many Christian nations. And the NT confirmation of Israel's Hope declares, explicitly, that Israel has not fallen forever.

Paul's argument in Rom 9-11 is extremely compelling. The only concern those opposed to Israel's noted restoration there is the fact in chs. 9 and 10 Paul explains that Israel in the current age has been reduced to less than a nation--to a mere remnant. But this in no way invalidates Paul's conclusion in ch. 11 that Israel will be completely restored to national status and to status as God's People.

The Hope of Israel began with God's promise to Abraham to have biological descendants form into a nation inheriting the land of Canaan, an explicit description of a single nation. Later, God promised Abraham many more nations of faith without taking back His original promise of Israel, Abraham's national posterity.

Gen 12. 2 I will make you into a great nation.

Isa 49.8 This is what the Lord says:

“At just the right time, I will respond to you.
On the day of salvation I will help you.
I will protect you and give you to the people
as my covenant with them.
Through you I will reestablish the land of Israel
and assign it to its own people again.
9 I will say to the prisoners, ‘Come out in freedom,’
and to those in darkness, ‘Come into the light.’
They will be my sheep, grazing in green pastures
and on hills that were previously bare.
10 They will neither hunger nor thirst.
The searing sun will not reach them anymore.
For the Lord in his mercy will lead them;
he will lead them beside cool waters.
11 And I will make my mountains into level paths for them.
The highways will be raised above the valleys.
12 See, my people will return from far away,
from lands to the north and west,
and from as far south as Egypt.”

13 Sing for joy, O heavens!
Rejoice, O earth!
Burst into song, O mountains!
For the Lord has comforted his people
and will have compassion on them in their suffering.

14 Yet Jerusalem says, “The Lord has deserted us;
the Lord has forgotten us.”

15 “Never! Can a mother forget her nursing child?
Can she feel no love for the child she has borne?
But even if that were possible,
I would not forget you!
16 See, I have written your name on the palms of my hands.
Always in my mind is a picture of Jerusalem’s walls in ruins.

Luke 2.32 "a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of your people Israel.”

Matt 3.2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

Luke 21.24 Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

Rom 11.I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!... 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!... 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?... 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!... 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

 

[Marty fox]

Here are the passages on Israel's promised restoration, OT and NT. The rebuttals of this are that 1) Israel has been cast off forever, and 2) that Israel actually means *many Christian nations.* Both of these arguments are absurd on their face, despite the fact for many centuries the Christian Church began to deny the Hope of Israel. Israel does mean Israel, the nation--not many Christian nations. And the NT confirmation of Israel's Hope declares, explicitly, that Israel has not fallen forever.

Paul's argument in Rom 9-11 is extremely compelling. The only concern those opposed to Israel's noted restoration there is the fact in chs. 9 and 10 Paul explains that Israel in the current age has been reduced to less than a nation--to a mere remnant. But this in no way invalidates Paul's conclusion in ch. 11 that Israel will be completely restored to national status and to status as God's People.

The Hope of Israel began with God's promise to Abraham to have biological descendants form into a nation inheriting the land of Canaan, an explicit description of a single nation. Later, God promised Abraham many more nations of faith without taking back His original promise of Israel, Abraham's national posterity.

Gen 12. 2 I will make you into a great nation.

Isa 49.8 This is what the Lord says:

“At just the right time, I will respond to you.
On the day of salvation I will help you.
I will protect you and give you to the people
as my covenant with them.
Through you I will reestablish the land of Israel
and assign it to its own people again.
9 I will say to the prisoners, ‘Come out in freedom,’
and to those in darkness, ‘Come into the light.’
They will be my sheep, grazing in green pastures
and on hills that were previously bare.
10 They will neither hunger nor thirst.
The searing sun will not reach them anymore.
For the Lord in his mercy will lead them;
he will lead them beside cool waters.
11 And I will make my mountains into level paths for them.
The highways will be raised above the valleys.
12 See, my people will return from far away,
from lands to the north and west,
and from as far south as Egypt.”

13 Sing for joy, O heavens!
Rejoice, O earth!
Burst into song, O mountains!
For the Lord has comforted his people
and will have compassion on them in their suffering.

14 Yet Jerusalem says, “The Lord has deserted us;
the Lord has forgotten us.”

15 “Never! Can a mother forget her nursing child?
Can she feel no love for the child she has borne?
But even if that were possible,
I would not forget you!
16 See, I have written your name on the palms of my hands.
Always in my mind is a picture of Jerusalem’s walls in ruins.

Luke 2.32 "a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of your people Israel.”

Matt 3.2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

Luke 21.24 Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

Rom 11.I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!... 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!... 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?... 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!... 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

So how would you explain Romans 9:6?

It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

In my opinion this verse blows away any argument about who true Israel is. It reveals what Paul meant by true Israel.

 

[covenantee]

Jesus' Gospel Message indicated it was "near," and coming.

Colossians 1:13 declares that it was come and done.

The "Jewish Hope" is recognized by Jews and Christians as a major theme in OT Prophecy. Acts 1 indicates Jesus' Disciples were still expecting that.

I've explained how Jesus laid any Jewish hopes and disciples' expectations to rest. That is why there is no further reference to a restored physical Israelitic kingdom anywhere in NT Scripture.

 

[Marty fox]

Here are the passages on Israel's promised restoration, OT and NT. The rebuttals of this are that 1) Israel has been cast off forever, and 2) that Israel actually means *many Christian nations.* Both of these arguments are absurd on their face, despite the fact for many centuries the Christian Church began to deny the Hope of Israel. Israel does mean Israel, the nation--not many Christian nations. And the NT confirmation of Israel's Hope declares, explicitly, that Israel has not fallen forever.

Paul's argument in Rom 9-11 is extremely compelling. The only concern those opposed to Israel's noted restoration there is the fact in chs. 9 and 10 Paul explains that Israel in the current age has been reduced to less than a nation--to a mere remnant. But this in no way invalidates Paul's conclusion in ch. 11 that Israel will be completely restored to national status and to status as God's People.

The Hope of Israel began with God's promise to Abraham to have biological descendants form into a nation inheriting the land of Canaan, an explicit description of a single nation. Later, God promised Abraham many more nations of faith without taking back His original promise of Israel, Abraham's national posterity.

Gen 12. 2 I will make you into a great nation.

Isa 49.8 This is what the Lord says:

“At just the right time, I will respond to you.
On the day of salvation I will help you.
I will protect you and give you to the people
as my covenant with them.
Through you I will reestablish the land of Israel
and assign it to its own people again.
9 I will say to the prisoners, ‘Come out in freedom,’
and to those in darkness, ‘Come into the light.’
They will be my sheep, grazing in green pastures
and on hills that were previously bare.
10 They will neither hunger nor thirst.
The searing sun will not reach them anymore.
For the Lord in his mercy will lead them;
he will lead them beside cool waters.
11 And I will make my mountains into level paths for them.
The highways will be raised above the valleys.
12 See, my people will return from far away,
from lands to the north and west,
and from as far south as Egypt.”

13 Sing for joy, O heavens!
Rejoice, O earth!
Burst into song, O mountains!
For the Lord has comforted his people
and will have compassion on them in their suffering.

14 Yet Jerusalem says, “The Lord has deserted us;
the Lord has forgotten us.”

15 “Never! Can a mother forget her nursing child?
Can she feel no love for the child she has borne?
But even if that were possible,
I would not forget you!
16 See, I have written your name on the palms of my hands.
Always in my mind is a picture of Jerusalem’s walls in ruins.

Luke 2.32 "a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of your people Israel.”

Matt 3.2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

Luke 21.24 Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

Rom 11.I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!... 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!... 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?... 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!... 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Also why did Paul use two descriptive words for Israel here?

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.


How about

“The deliverer (Jesus) will come from Zion;(national Israel)
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob (true Israel)

 

[covenantee]

Paul's argument in Rom 9-11 is extremely compelling.

Indeed it is.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So how would you explain Romans 9:6?

It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

In my opinion this verse blows away any argument about who true Israel is. It reveals what Paul meant by true Israel.

Yea, I know that's the argument, and it is the reason I said this:
"The only concern those opposed to Israel's noted restoration there is the fact in chs. 9 and 10 Paul explains that Israel in the current age has been reduced to less than a nation--to a mere remnant."

Paul, in my opinion, was not "redefining who Israel is," but rather, explaining how God didn't fail even as the Hope of Israel seems to have been stalled. God doesn't fail when Israel isn't remaining "true" to their calling. God remains faithful even as Israel, as a whole, is acting in an unfaithful way.

This is no way means Israel's Hope will not take place. It only explains God in the present situation in which Israel's status falls short of their calling.

Paul's argument may be looked at in a 2-fold way. 1) Not all Jews will ever be faithful to their calling. 2) Some Jews, being unfaithful now, will eventually be restored to their calling.

Regardless, the Hope of Israel is that a majority of followers will be restored, whereas those who do not wish to ever be restored will be cut off. In any case, God remains faithful to His promise to restore Israel. They are called to that, and it will be done, I believe.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Indeed it is.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

I believe many Christians make this error, mistaking what Paul called "true Israel" with a redefinition of who Israel is. Paul was not saying that there were 2 Israels, but only 1 Israel, with some people within the nation not willing to live up to their calling. As such, they will be cut off from being part of Israel. They will not become a "2nd Israel."

When Paul spoke of "true Israel" he was not, therefore, trying to distinguish between 2 Israels, but only showing that those in Israel could be true/faithful, or not. "True Israel" are those who will ultimately follow God within the nation, regardless of whether they are there yet. They may be untrue now, but can convert, repent and become "true Israel" again.

Being a "true Israel" has more to do with Israel being "faithful" than in redefining who "Israel" is! If anything, it is an explanation that the "Israel" called to be will ultimately consist of a majority of faithful followers, and not be a fallen nation, falling short of its calling.

 

[Marty fox]

Yea, I know that's the argument, and it is the reason I said this:
"The only concern those opposed to Israel's noted restoration there is the fact in chs. 9 and 10 Paul explains that Israel in the current age has been reduced to less than a nation--to a mere remnant."

Paul, in my opinion, was not "redefining who Israel is," but rather, explaining how God didn't fail even as the Hope of Israel seems to have been stalled. God doesn't fail when Israel isn't remaining "true" to their calling. God remains faithful even as Israel, as a whole, is acting in an unfaithful way.

This is no way means Israel's Hope will not take place. It only explains God in the present situation in which Israel's status falls short of their calling.

Paul's argument may be looked at in a 2-fold way. 1) Not all Jews will ever be faithful to their calling. 2) Some Jews, being unfaithful now, will eventually be restored to their calling.

Regardless, the Hope of Israel is that a majority of followers will be restored, whereas those who do not wish to ever be restored will be cut off. In any case, God remains faithful to His promise to restore Israel. They are called to that, and it will be done, I believe.

Okay how about Jesus own words

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Jesus clearly states above that there is only one people in His kingdom made up of both Jew and gentile thus true Israel

 

[amigo de christo]

Okay how about Jesus own words

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Jesus clearly states above that there is only one people in His kingdom made up of both Jew and gentile thus true Israel

For many do not know the true israel of GOD .
Look at the key words as well . YE have come unto MOUNT ZION , the heavely JERSUALEM OF GOD .
THERE is but one ISRAEL and tis those who are IN CHRIST JESUS .
Not even all of natural israel is OF TRUE ISRAEL . NO JESUS NO ISRAEL , NO JESUS no true JERUSALEM
NO JESUS is only the second death and the wrath of GOD shall those face .
ITS TIME to point to CHRIST and HE ALONE .

 

[Marty fox]

Yea, I know that's the argument, and it is the reason I said this:
"The only concern those opposed to Israel's noted restoration there is the fact in chs. 9 and 10 Paul explains that Israel in the current age has been reduced to less than a nation--to a mere remnant."

Paul, in my opinion, was not "redefining who Israel is," but rather, explaining how God didn't fail even as the Hope of Israel seems to have been stalled. God doesn't fail when Israel isn't remaining "true" to their calling. God remains faithful even as Israel, as a whole, is acting in an unfaithful way.

This is no way means Israel's Hope will not take place. It only explains God in the present situation in which Israel's status falls short of their calling.

Paul's argument may be looked at in a 2-fold way. 1) Not all Jews will ever be faithful to their calling. 2) Some Jews, being unfaithful now, will eventually be restored to their calling.

Regardless, the Hope of Israel is that a majority of followers will be restored, whereas those who do not wish to ever be restored will be cut off. In any case, God remains faithful to His promise to restore Israel. They are called to that, and it will be done, I believe.

Hey we’ve discussed this before LOL.

You are always a gentleman to debate with Randy

 

[amigo de christo]

Out of eygpt GOD called israel . Try and remember that this very saying applies to this as well
OUT OF EYGPT have i called MY SON . THERE IS NO ISRAEL OUTSIDE OF JESUS CHRIST .
THERE Is no salvation outside of CHRIST , there is no eternal life outside of Christ .
ONLY the wrath of GOD abides on those who believe not in the CHRIST , THE MESSIAH the SON OF GOD CHRIST JESUS .

 

[covenantee]

I believe many Christians make this error, mistaking what Paul called "true Israel" with a redefinition of who Israel is. Paul was not saying that there were 2 Israels, but only 1 Israel, with some people within the nation not willing to live up to their calling. As such, they will be cut off from being part of Israel. They will not become a "2nd Israel."

When Paul spoke of "true Israel" he was not, therefore, trying to distinguish between 2 Israels, but only showing that those in Israel could be true, or faithful, or not. "True Israel" are those who will ultimately follow God within the nation, regardless of whether they are there yet. They may be untrue now, but can convert, repent and become "true Israel" again.

Paul never used the expression "true Israel". He used "all Israel" and "of Israel".

The distinction between the two is spiritual, and it is clear and plain.

 

[Marty fox]

For many do not know the true israel of GOD .
Look at the key words as well . YE have come unto MOUNT ZION , the heavely JERSUALEM OF GOD .
THERE is but one ISRAEL and tis those who are IN CHRIST JESUS .
Not even all of natural israel is OF TRUE ISRAEL . NO JESUS NO ISRAEL , NO JESUS no true JERUSALEM
NO JESUS is only the second death and the wrath of GOD shall those face .
ITS TIME to point to CHRIST and HE ALONE .

How about Know Jesus know True Israel