New heaven new earth???

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theefaith

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Not just one single ascension. Jesus came and went many times during that 40 days. His presence among them was not constant. He appeared and left multiple times.
But he did not ascend more than once
 

teamventure

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What is all the foolishness in this thread?

Some can't even take the word as literal when plainly stated and that leads to confusion because it turns the word into ones private enterpretation.

God forbid we mishandle his word in such a way.
 

Ronald Nolette

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The last chapter of each Gospel and the first chapter of Acts comes to mind.

All those speak of His two ascensions.

1. In between thee time Mary saw him in the garden and He appeared to teh 11 disciples, to perform as High Priest what was required of HIm.

2. His ascension in Acts is the second and final . If you think different chapter and verse please.
 

theefaith

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All those speak of His two ascensions.

1. In between thee time Mary saw him in the garden and He appeared to teh 11 disciples, to perform as High Priest what was required of HIm.

2. His ascension in Acts is the second and final . If you think different chapter and verse please.
No this is your assertion you give the verses where actually ascends to heaven
 

Ronald Nolette

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No this is your assertion you give the verses where actually ascends to heaven

Acts 1:9

John 20:16-18
King James Version

16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


This event took place in the garden when He had just resurrected! The only reason she could not touch Him was He had not yet ascended to HIs Father.

John 20:27-29
King James Version

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


This took place in the evening of the same day! And Jesus allowed Thomas to touch Him. biblically teh only reason He could was that He ascended to teh Father for a very specific purpose required by the Law.

So there were two times Jesus went to heaven after HIs resurrection foundin the Bible.
 

theefaith

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Acts 1:9

John 20:16-18
King James Version

16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


This event took place in the garden when He had just resurrected! The only reason she could not touch Him was He had not yet ascended to HIs Father.

John 20:27-29
King James Version

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


This took place in the evening of the same day! And Jesus allowed Thomas to touch Him. biblically teh only reason He could was that He ascended to teh Father for a very specific purpose required by the Law.

So there were two times Jesus went to heaven after HIs resurrection foundin the Bible.

non-sense there is only one resurrection
Only one ascension
 

Mark51

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Are they physical or spiritual?

According to M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1891, Vol. IV, p. 122) comments: “In Isa. lxv, 17, a new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people.”

In the Bible, “earth” does not always refer to our globe. For instance, Psalm 96:1 says literally: “Sing to Jehovah, all the earth.” We know that our planet cannot sing. People sing. This Psalm is referring to the people on the earth. If “heavens” can symbolize the superior ruling power or government so, to “earth.” represents a new society of people.

John’s vision refers to the passing away of “the former heaven and the former earth.” (Revelation 21:1; compare Isaiah 57:20; Revelation 20:11.) In the Christian Greek Scriptures, earthly governments and their peoples are shown to be subject to Satanic rule. (Matthew 4:8, 9; John 12:31; 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4; Revelation 12:9; 16:13, 14) The apostle Paul referred to “the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places,” with their governments, authorities, and world rulers. (Ephesians 6:12) So the passing away of “the former heaven” indicates the end of political governments along with Satan and his demons. This identification of “the former heaven” harmonizes with the fact that shortly before the statement concerning the “former heaven having passed away,” John had seen a vision of the complete defeat of Satan’s forces and the casting of Satan into “the abyss.”-Revelation 19:19-20:3.
 

theefaith

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According to M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1891, Vol. IV, p. 122) comments: “In Isa. lxv, 17, a new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people.”

In the Bible, “earth” does not always refer to our globe. For instance, Psalm 96:1 says literally: “Sing to Jehovah, all the earth.” We know that our planet cannot sing. People sing. This Psalm is referring to the people on the earth. If “heavens” can symbolize the superior ruling power or government so, to “earth.” represents a new society of people.

John’s vision refers to the passing away of “the former heaven and the former earth.” (Revelation 21:1; compare Isaiah 57:20; Revelation 20:11.) In the Christian Greek Scriptures, earthly governments and their peoples are shown to be subject to Satanic rule. (Matthew 4:8, 9; John 12:31; 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4; Revelation 12:9; 16:13, 14) The apostle Paul referred to “the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places,” with their governments, authorities, and world rulers. (Ephesians 6:12) So the passing away of “the former heaven” indicates the end of political governments along with Satan and his demons. This identification of “the former heaven” harmonizes with the fact that shortly before the statement concerning the “former heaven having passed away,” John had seen a vision of the complete defeat of Satan’s forces and the casting of Satan into “the abyss.”-Revelation 19:19-20:3.

holy mother church
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Why not? Jesus told Mary He was ascending that day.

The extent that John 20:17 creates a problem in correct understanding depends largely on the Bible translation one uses. Both the Catholic Douay and the King James Version represent Jesus as telling Mary not to “touch” him. The Douay reads: “Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to my Father.” (John 20:17) Yet, according to this translation, Jesus later said to Thomas: “Put in thy finger hither, and see my hands; and bring hither thy hand, and put it into my side.” John 20:27

This same problem, Jesus’ telling Mary not to touch his materialized body and later urging Thomas to touch him, occurs in translations in various languages. In German the Elberfelder and Luther translations carry the thought at John 20:17 of not “touching” Jesus. This is also the case in the French Crampon and Liénart Bibles, in Italian with Riveduta and Diodati and in Spanish in the Moderna, Valera, and Nácar-Colunga translations.

However, “touch” is just one of the meanings of the Greek word ha΄pto. Another of the many significances of this Greek word is “to cling to, lay hold of.” (An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W. E. Vine, Vol. IV, p. 145) Accordingly, The New English Bible presents Jesus as saying at John 20:17: “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father.” The statement is similarly translated in An American Translation and the Catholic La Bible de Jérusalem (The Jerusalem Bible) in French and English. The Spanish Ediciones Paulinas uses “Suéltame,” meaning “Let go of me.”

So the situation in the case of Mary Magdalene appears to have been that she was greatly disturbed that by his death Jesus had left his followers. When she saw him in his materialized body after his resurrection, she clung to Jesus as if she were about to lose him and never see him again. Jesus’ statement would work to correct her misunderstanding of the situation, showing her that she did not have to clutch him fearfully as if to prevent his vanishing. In time he would ascend to heaven and from there send the holy spirit to help and strengthen his disciples. The New World Translation appropriately presents Jesus as saying to Mary: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”—John 20:17.

A few days later, before his ascension to heaven, Jesus invited Thomas to touch his materialized body momentarily so as to convince Thomas that he, Christ, had actually risen from the dead. (John 20:27) This was not inconsistent with what Jesus had said earlier.
 

Timtofly

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The extent that John 20:17 creates a problem in correct understanding depends largely on the Bible translation one uses. Both the Catholic Douay and the King James Version represent Jesus as telling Mary not to “touch” him. The Douay reads: “Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to my Father.” (John 20:17) Yet, according to this translation, Jesus later said to Thomas: “Put in thy finger hither, and see my hands; and bring hither thy hand, and put it into my side.” John 20:27

This same problem, Jesus’ telling Mary not to touch his materialized body and later urging Thomas to touch him, occurs in translations in various languages. In German the Elberfelder and Luther translations carry the thought at John 20:17 of not “touching” Jesus. This is also the case in the French Crampon and Liénart Bibles, in Italian with Riveduta and Diodati and in Spanish in the Moderna, Valera, and Nácar-Colunga translations.

However, “touch” is just one of the meanings of the Greek word ha΄pto. Another of the many significances of this Greek word is “to cling to, lay hold of.” (An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W. E. Vine, Vol. IV, p. 145) Accordingly, The New English Bible presents Jesus as saying at John 20:17: “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father.” The statement is similarly translated in An American Translation and the Catholic La Bible de Jérusalem (The Jerusalem Bible) in French and English. The Spanish Ediciones Paulinas uses “Suéltame,” meaning “Let go of me.”

So the situation in the case of Mary Magdalene appears to have been that she was greatly disturbed that by his death Jesus had left his followers. When she saw him in his materialized body after his resurrection, she clung to Jesus as if she were about to lose him and never see him again. Jesus’ statement would work to correct her misunderstanding of the situation, showing her that she did not have to clutch him fearfully as if to prevent his vanishing. In time he would ascend to heaven and from there send the holy spirit to help and strengthen his disciples. The New World Translation appropriately presents Jesus as saying to Mary: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”—John 20:17.

A few days later, before his ascension to heaven, Jesus invited Thomas to touch his materialized body momentarily so as to convince Thomas that he, Christ, had actually risen from the dead. (John 20:27) This was not inconsistent with what Jesus had said earlier.
A big leap in logic. Later in the same chapter, NOT a few days later, the same day Jesus was physically with them and let them see the scars. There was no change a week later, still the same scars.

I am talking about the account in Mark 16.

9 When Yeshua rose early Sunday, he appeared first to Miryam of Magdala, from whom he had expelled seven demons.

10 She went and told those who had been with him, as they were crying and mourning.

11 But when they heard that he was alive and that she had seen him, they wouldn’t believe it.

12 After that, Yeshua appeared in another form to two of them as they were walking into the country.

13 They went and told the others, but they didn’t believe them either.

John gives the details of Mary's encounter. Mark shows Jesus already ascended between meeting with Mary and the two men on the road. Jesus met with Mary first. Then ascended. Then met the two on the road, and then in the evening:

"In the evening that same day, the first day of the week, when the talmidim were gathered together behind locked doors out of fear of the Judeans, Yeshua came, stood in the middle and said, “Shalom aleikhem!” Having greeted them, he showed them his hands and his side. The talmidim were overjoyed to see the Lord.

They could touch his body then, no problem. Thomas could not, he was not there. He was there a week later. That is not the point.

The point was that first day when Jesus was resurrected. He saw Mary first in one form. He ascended, and came back at lunch with the two men in a different form. That same day in the same form, He met with the disciples minus Thomas.

Jesus was not running around that day. Jesus ascended from one spot and came back down on the road where the two were walking. They returned to Jerusalem, again without Jesus, who once again became invisible. Luke 24:31-43 tells the rest of the story:

"Then their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. But he became invisible to them. They said to each other, “Didn’t our hearts burn inside us as he spoke to us on the road, opening up the Tanakh to us?”

"They got up at once, returned to Yerushalayim and found the Eleven gathered together with their friends, saying, “It’s true! The Lord has risen! Shim‘on saw him!” Then the two told what had happened on the road and how he had become known to them in the breaking of the matzah. They were still talking about it when — there he was, standing among them! Startled and terrified, they thought they were seeing a ghost. But he said to them, “Why are you so upset? Why are these doubts welling up inside you? Look at my hands and my feet — it is I, myself! Touch me and see — a ghost doesn’t have flesh and bones, as you can see I do.” As he said this, he showed them his hands and feet. While they were still unable to believe it for joy and stood there dumbfounded, he said to them, “Have you something here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, which he took and ate in their presence.

Mary thought it was a normal human, but Jesus said do not touch me. He then ascended and later appeared as if walking along a road. He ate with the two, and then disappeared right in front of them. They ran back to Jerusalem and were talking with the others, and Jesus materialized right in front of them. He was not a ghost. They touched Him and He ate again.

There is no reason to call Jesus a liar, or any reader of the verses a liar, that He did ascend between meeting Mary and returned in a different form walking along a road. At that point Jesus could come and go quite differently than normal humans, but was not a ghost like the form Mary saw Him in, that could not be touched. His physical body could come and go and not like a ghost. Jesus told Mary He had to ascend before He would recieve His normal body. It had nothing to do with Mary's state of mind one bit. No verse claims that, so that interpretation is not Scriptural.

"Yeshua said to her, “because I haven’t yet gone back to the Father. But go to my brothers, and tell them that I am going back to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” Miryam of Magdala went to the talmidim with the news that she had seen the Lord and that he had told her this."

Mary was supposed to tell the others that Jesus was going to His Father that day, not 40 days later. Jesus went and came back all in the same day. If Jesus was talking about 40 days later, Jesus could have told the disciples Himself that evening.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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A big leap in logic. Later in the same chapter, NOT a few days later, the same day Jesus was physically with them and let them see the scars. There was no change a week later, still the same scars.

I am talking about the account in Mark 16.

9 When Yeshua rose early Sunday, he appeared first to Miryam of Magdala, from whom he had expelled seven demons.

10 She went and told those who had been with him, as they were crying and mourning.

11 But when they heard that he was alive and that she had seen him, they wouldn’t believe it.

12 After that, Yeshua appeared in another form to two of them as they were walking into the country.

13 They went and told the others, but they didn’t believe them either.

John gives the details of Mary's encounter. Mark shows Jesus already ascended between meeting with Mary and the two men on the road. Jesus met with Mary first. Then ascended. Then met the two on the road, and then in the evening:

"In the evening that same day, the first day of the week, when the talmidim were gathered together behind locked doors out of fear of the Judeans, Yeshua came, stood in the middle and said, “Shalom aleikhem!” Having greeted them, he showed them his hands and his side. The talmidim were overjoyed to see the Lord.

They could touch his body then, no problem. Thomas could not, he was not there. He was there a week later. That is not the point.

The point was that first day when Jesus was resurrected. He saw Mary first in one form. He ascended, and came back at lunch with the two men in a different form. That same day in the same form, He met with the disciples minus Thomas.

Jesus was not running around that day. Jesus ascended from one spot and came back down on the road where the two were walking. They returned to Jerusalem, again without Jesus, who once again became invisible. Luke 24:31-43 tells the rest of the story:

"Then their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. But he became invisible to them. They said to each other, “Didn’t our hearts burn inside us as he spoke to us on the road, opening up the Tanakh to us?”

"They got up at once, returned to Yerushalayim and found the Eleven gathered together with their friends, saying, “It’s true! The Lord has risen! Shim‘on saw him!” Then the two told what had happened on the road and how he had become known to them in the breaking of the matzah. They were still talking about it when — there he was, standing among them! Startled and terrified, they thought they were seeing a ghost. But he said to them, “Why are you so upset? Why are these doubts welling up inside you? Look at my hands and my feet — it is I, myself! Touch me and see — a ghost doesn’t have flesh and bones, as you can see I do.” As he said this, he showed them his hands and feet. While they were still unable to believe it for joy and stood there dumbfounded, he said to them, “Have you something here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, which he took and ate in their presence.

Mary thought it was a normal human, but Jesus said do not touch me. He then ascended and later appeared as if walking along a road. He ate with the two, and then disappeared right in front of them. They ran back to Jerusalem and were talking with the others, and Jesus materialized right in front of them. He was not a ghost. They touched Him and He ate again.

There is no reason to call Jesus a liar, or any reader of the verses a liar, that He did ascend between meeting Mary and returned in a different form walking along a road. At that point Jesus could come and go quite differently than normal humans, but was not a ghost like the form Mary saw Him in, that could not be touched. His physical body could come and go and not like a ghost. Jesus told Mary He had to ascend before He would recieve His normal body. It had nothing to do with Mary's state of mind one bit. No verse claims that, so that interpretation is not Scriptural.

"Yeshua said to her, “because I haven’t yet gone back to the Father. But go to my brothers, and tell them that I am going back to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” Miryam of Magdala went to the talmidim with the news that she had seen the Lord and that he had told her this."

Mary was supposed to tell the others that Jesus was going to His Father that day, not 40 days later. Jesus went and came back all in the same day. If Jesus was talking about 40 days later, Jesus could have told the disciples Himself that evening.
Jesus said he hadn't gone to his Father in heaven when he was talking to Mary Magdalene. When Jesus told Mary to tell his Apostles and disciples that he was going to his Father and their Father and his God and their God there's nothing in that scripture that means that Jesus was going right then, you just assumed that. You can assume that all you want but I see it as just your assumption that he went to heaven after Mary left. I see no evidence in the scriptures that he didn't go to heaven until 40 days after his resurrection.
 

CoreIssue

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when he spoke to Mary he was dirty and look like a corpse, like someone who had been sacrificed. But when he returned he was clean and had changed so much they did not recognize him.

He had to go to the father to offer his bodily sacrifice before he could be glorified. So it is very evident when he came back it was after his sacrifice was offered to the father.
 

Naomi25

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when he spoke to Mary he was dirty and look like a corpse, like someone who had been sacrificed. But when he returned he was clean and had changed so much they did not recognize him.

He had to go to the father to offer his bodily sacrifice before he could be glorified. So it is very evident when he came back it was after his sacrifice was offered to the father.
That was an interesting point and made me think. However... I’m not sure we should assume that Christ, when he saw Mary, was still in his un-glorified body (please do correct me if I’m wrong and that’s not what you’re saying). The passage in John, that tells us of the meeting of Jesus and Mary, said she did not recognise him and that she supposed him to be the gardener.
Now...for myself, I would think if he still looked pretty much as he had when the pulled him off the cross; bruised, bloody and still very much Jesus of Nazareth, then Mary would have recognised him. We are told Mary was at the cross when he died...that sight would have been burned into her brain!
But...a gardener? We could say yes, perhaps he was covered in a bit of dirt....but would we assume all gardeners look like they’ve been crucified...the most brutal death the Romans could invent? I think that’s a stretch, personally.
So...as interesting as the idea is, unless there are other biblical verses to support it, I don’t know that logically it follows. Do you think? Just based on the passage alone?