New heaven new earth???

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Same body but the firstfruits of the resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:35-47
King James Version

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.


Same body all believers in Christ death and physical resurrection will get. Just like His!

God did not destroy the old and replaced it with a new physical body. He resurrected teh dead body and glorified it! It was not a spirit that rose from the dread but a real body.

Luke 24:36-43
King James Version

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

I don't believe you believe these scriptures you're quoting here if you did you would believe as the scriptures say here that Jesus was resurrected with a immortal, incorruptible spiritual body. What does that mean, do you truly know? It means that Jesus body was no longer a mortal corruptible body as he had before his resurrection. You want to say that God glorified his body then you are saying that it wasn't the same body that he died, because the body he had when he was sacrificed was human mortal and corruptible, being glorified means that God changed that mortal corruptible body to a immortal incorruptible body, which is a spiritual body. Can Jesus appear with a body which he can eat food and you are able to touch him, yes. But Angels were able to do that in old testament times, but they are still mortal beings who can be destroyed. We know that because the scriptures show us that God will destroyed Satan and his demons. If they were immortal they would not be able to be destroyed. So Jesus being given immortality and inherit incorruption along with those among humanity that will rule with him in that Messianic kingdom is something new. No one had immortality and incorruption before that except the True God Jehovah.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You need to remember that Jesus knowingly and willfully came as a human to sacrifice his human body to save mankind. It was called a ransom sacrifice. Jesus didn't take that sacrifice back. He was resurrected with a body that was immortal and incorruptible, that's the truth. Jesus wasn't immortal or incorruptible before his sacrifice. He would not been able to be put to death if he were immortal before he was sacrificed. So don't tell me that Jesus wasn't resurrected with the same body before he died, the scriptures are saying that's not true. What you don't like is that the scriptures tell us that Jesus was given an immortal incorruptible body when he was resurrected and so will those humans who will be in heaven ruling with Jesus. They no longer have human bodies just as Jesus sacrificed his human body so do they. Jesus Christ was made a life giving spirit when he was resurrected.

John 2:20-22
King James Version

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


so you are calling Jesus a liar! OK then.

John 10:17-19
King James Version

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.


It is the blood that was given to remove our sins!

Stop listening to a man made organization that has twisted the Scriptures to their own destruction.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I don't believe you believe these scriptures you're quoting here if you did you would believe as the scriptures say here that Jesus was resurrected with a immortal, incorruptible spiritual body. What does that mean, do you truly know? It means that Jesus body was no longer a mortal corruptible body as he had before his resurrection.

Like gods word says: " It was sown a natural body, but raised aspiritual, sown in corruption raised in in corruption.. Same body- just clothed with glory!

being glorified means that God changed that mortal corruptible body to a immortal incorruptible body, which is a spiritual body

Luke 24:38-40
King James Version

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.


I suppose you are going to spout the organization line and say that He manufactured bodies as He needed them?

Show it form gods word and not a mans booklet.

Angels were able to do that in old testament times,

but Jesus is not an angel and angels did not die and say they would rise from teh dead in teh same temple like Jesus did! If Jesus body was not raised from teh dead- then He was not resurrected for that which died did not rise again as the word God inspired and which th eApostles witnessed declare!

We know that because the scriptures show us that God will destroyed Satan and his demons. If they were immortal they would not be able to be destroyed.

Save teh false teaching on no lake of fire for forever for another thread.

No one had immortality and incorruption before that except the True God Jehovah.

Well as Jesus is called Jehovah, I can accept this.

YOu use too much vain philosophy to reject the teachings of SCripture as written. but that is how you were taught. Gods Word is not adequate- you need someone to "interpret it" for you, as Watchtower doctrine says.

But answer this:

Resurrection means a standing up again (stasis =standing--- ana = again) So tell me, what was laid down when Jesus died?

 

[theefaith]

Ronald Nolette said:
No one believes God the Father became man! But the bible clearly and unambiguously tell us that God the Son who in the OT is called Jehovah just like HIs Father, became man to die on the cross for the sins of the World![/Quote\]

I know that people don't listen to Jesus but if you open your own Bible to John 20:17 and read Jesus’ own words near the end of that verse he says: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” Jesus says this after his resurrection and the scriptures show us that Jesus was given immortality and inherit incorruption and Jesus still says he has a God and Father who is our God and Father. I don't expect you to believe this but I do. I don't think Jesus was lying when he said that. Even in the book of Revelation it is stated that Jesus has a God. In Revelation the glorified Lord Jesus Christ repeatedly speaks of his Father as “my God.” At Revelation 3:12, for example, we read: “The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.” like I said I don't expect you to agree with what Jesus Christ said.

Are all JW’s zionists? Like CTR

 

[Timtofly]

You're the one who believes the Holy Spirit to be a person not me. I agree the scriptures personify the Holy Spirit but that in itself doesn't make the Holy Spirit a person. The scriptures personify death, wisdom and sin but that doesn't mean they are persons. When it comes to the Holy Spirit you can see a figure of speech in these words in the scriptures: “The helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you”? (John 14:26) Some take this to mean that the holy spirit is an actual person. But it is so often mentioned together with other impersonal forces or things that that cannot be true. (Matthew 3:11; Ephesians 5:18; Acts 6:3, 5; 13:52; 2 Corinthians 6:4-8) Jesus was clearly using the figure of speech we call personification. So I believe The Only True God to be Jehovah and I believe his Only Begotten Son Jesus to be a God.
Also remember that the scriptures say Satan is a God at 2Corinthians 4:4. The angels are also referred to as “godlike ones.” (Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7) That doesn't mean any should be worshipped except The True God Jehovah.


You said to me "you do not have access to your spirit, sin separated us from our spirit, which is in the presence of God. You are only a soul. Your body will return to dust because it is dead in sin, corruptible."
This is all bogus and it goes against scripture. At Genesis 2:7 kjv- it says Adam became a Soul after God blew the breath of life into the body he had formed. So man is what he always was from the time God created him, a Soul.
Also look at Luke 8:54, 55 , of Jesus’ raising Jairus’ daughter to life say: “But taking her by the hand he called, saying, ‘Child, arise.’ And her spirit returned, and she got up at once”? Yes. Are we, then, to reason from this that, before Jesus raised Jairus’ girl to life, her spirit was alive in a spirit world and that it had returned to God who gave it and was living with him? No; for the “spirit” is not, “the etheric body of an individual having all his characteristics. . . . the exact counterpart of the physical portion of the individual.” According to the Bible the spirit (ruʹahh, Hebrew; pneuʹma, Greek) is God’s invisible active force that causes life or makes alive.

Exactly why the soul is like pneuma. It is the invisible result of physical neurons in action. The soul leaves the body, and can return. But I do not call that a spirit nor ghost. Yes that is how some scripture describes the soul. Our spirit is the God image part, that we lost. It would be described as a robe of white or the ability of one to shine like a bright star, unable to be looked upon for too long. I do not know any one who is lit up like a light bulb. The spirit is not air in this sense. The spirit is what makes us fully like God. The Holy Spirit works in us. Figurative we are the light of the world, because God is evident, not because we have our spirit, but His Holy Spirit.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

John 2:20-22
King James Version

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


so you are calling Jesus a liar! OK then.

John 10:17-19
King James Version

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.


It is the blood that was given to remove our sins!

Stop listening to a man made organization that has twisted the Scriptures to their own destruction.

I'm not listening to a man made organization. You're listening to the doctrines of apostasy though. If you were not listening to the apostasy doctrines you would know that these scriptures at

Exactly why the soul is like pneuma. It is the invisible result of physical neurons in action. The soul leaves the body, and can return. But I do not call that a spirit nor ghost. Yes that is how some scripture describes the soul. Our spirit is the God image part, that we lost. It would be described as a robe of white or the ability of one to shine like a bright star, unable to be looked upon for too long. I do not know any one who is lit up like a light bulb. The spirit is not air in this sense. The spirit is what makes us fully like God. The Holy Spirit works in us. Figurative we are the light of the world, because God is evident, not because we have our spirit, but His Holy Spirit.

The scriptures even from the time we were created by God tell us we are Souls not that we have Souls. The spirit that's is in us isn't who we are. We are Souls, that is who we are. The spirit that's in us is no different than the spirit that's in animals. What you and others have no faith in that God can do, is that he created flesh and blood oxygen breathing creatures called humans and when he put them on this planet it was his will or purpose for Adam and Eve and all the children they would have produced while still in a sinless state to live forever on a paradise planet. So God didn't create humans in such a way that some part of him/her would continue to live. Like I said God create Adam and Eve to live forever on planet Earth. Just because that Angel who became Satan and the Devil did what he did and because Adam and Eve joined Satan in his rebellion doesn't change God's purpose for humans. Satan can't defeat God when it comes to God's purposes. So while it's true some from humanity have been selected by God to get a heavenly resurrection and be immortal incorruptible beings in heaven in that heavenly Messianic kingdom ruling with Jesus as kings and priests over Earth from heaven, the vast majority of humans including those who will be resurrected will be resurrected as flesh and blood humans on Earth. They will not grow old and die, no one will ever be hungry, no more wars, sickness or death

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Are all JW’s zionists? Like CTR

You need to go to Zionists anonymous! YOu have watched too many conspiracy theory videos . Tin foil hats do nothing to stop that kind of silliness.

BTW how do you define a zionist?

And who or what is CTR.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'm not listening to a man made organization. You're listening to the doctrines of apostasy though. If you were not listening to the apostasy doctrines you would know that these scriptures at

John 2:20-22
King James Version

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


So you consider Jesus an apostate then. for unless you redefine words and retranslate this passage, Jesus clearly said that if they destroyed his Body, in three days He would raise it up from the dead! the Watchtower can't get around this. Nor can they get around with their slick dark philosophy that resurrection from the dead always has and always will mean a body coming back to life after being dead- like what happened to Jesus!

If one denies the resurrection from death then they are still in their sins and without hope! That is Gods Word not mine!

Well I nkw the bible as writen is considered apostate doctrine by the Watchtower, that is why they have come out with the New World Mistranslation, so they could intentionally alter passages to change the meanings as written.

That is why they frown heavily against any members from reading books by Christian authors and stick to organizational materials. Sorry but I probably know as much of the false teachings of the Watchtower as you do!

 

[theefaith]

You need to go to Zionists anonymous! YOu have watched too many conspiracy theory videos . Tin foil hats do nothing to stop that kind of silliness.

BTW how do you define a zionist?

And who or what is CTR.

Charles raze Russell

Political Zionist believe in a man made homeland for the Jews who have the spiritual mark of Cain for killing their righteous brother and were dispersed to the ends of the earth to be persecuted forever

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

John 2:20-22
King James Version

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


So you consider Jesus an apostate then. for unless you redefine words and retranslate this passage, Jesus clearly said that if they destroyed his Body, in three days He would raise it up from the dead! the Watchtower can't get around this. Nor can they get around with their slick dark philosophy that resurrection from the dead always has and always will mean a body coming back to life after being dead- like what happened to Jesus!

If one denies the resurrection from death then they are still in their sins and without hope! That is Gods Word not mine!

Well I nkw the bible as writen is considered apostate doctrine by the Watchtower, that is why they have come out with the New World Mistranslation, so they could intentionally alter passages to change the meanings as written.

That is why they frown heavily against any members from reading books by Christian authors and stick to organizational materials. Sorry but I probably know as much of the false teachings of the Watchtower as you do!

You are the one saying I'm denying the resurrection. The scriptures are not denying I'm denying the resurrection because I believe as the scriptures say that Jesus sacrificed his human body and he became a life giving spirit as the scriptures say he did.(1Corinthians 15:42-45) You're the one denying these things, not me.

No, I don't consider Jesus Christ an apostate, but I don't consider you a christian just like you don't consider me a christian.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Charles raze Russell

Political Zionist believe in a man made homeland for the Jews who have the spiritual mark of Cain for killing their righteous brother and were dispersed to the ends of the earth to be persecuted forever

So I guess then Spiritual Zionists are the ones that believe god has given them Israel as an everlasting possession and they have a divine right to that land as God declared often in the OT?

 

[theefaith]

The promised land was a type of heaven
given to Abraham and we are his descendants by faith

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are the one saying I'm denying the resurrection. The scriptures are not denying I'm denying the resurrection because I believe as the scriptures say that Jesus sacrificed his human body and he became a life giving spirit as the scriptures say he did.(1Corinthians 15:42-45) You're the one denying these things, not me.

No, I don't consider Jesus Christ an apostate, but I don't consider you a christian just like you don't consider me a christian.

Well Thank you that you don't think of me as a Russelite!

But you can't have a resurrection without the body that died rising from the dead! Jesus sacrificed His blood! Teh bible itself says He would not see corruption. If His body did not rise from the dead, there can be no resurrection of Jesus--You knwo resurrection: ana-again stasis -standing.

So you are implying that jesus died as a spirit creature so He could stand again as a Spirit creature.

What do you say happened to HIs body when the Mary's and John and Peter went there and saw an empty tomb? where did HIs body go??

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Well Thank you that you don't think of me as a Russelite!

But you can't have a resurrection without the body that died rising from the dead! Jesus sacrificed His blood! Teh bible itself says He would not see corruption. If His body did not rise from the dead, there can be no resurrection of Jesus--You knwo resurrection: ana-again stasis -standing.

So you are implying that jesus died as a spirit creature so He could stand again as a Spirit creature.

What do you say happened to HIs body when the Mary's and John and Peter went there and saw an empty tomb? where did HIs body go??

Why is that at Jesus resurrection the guards didn't see Jesus resurrected but they saw the Angels that were there. After Jesus’ resurrection he appeared in different bodies. Mary mistook him for the gardener. (Joh 20:14, 15) He again appeared, entering a room with locked doors, having a body with wound marks. (Joh 20:24-29) Several times he manifested himself and was recognized, not by his physical appearance, but by his words and actions. (Lu 24:15, 16, 30, 31, 36-45; Mt 28:16-18) Once a miracle performed at his direction opened his disciples’ eyes to his identity. (Joh 21:4-7, 12) Jesus, having been resurrected as a spirit (1Pe 3:18), could materialize a body for the occasion as the angels did in past times, when they appeared as messengers. (Ge 18:2; 19:1, 12; Jos 5:13, 14; Jg 13:3, 6; Heb 13:2)
Ask yourself why, when Jesus disciples went to the tomb early on the first day of the week, Jesus’ body had disappeared, and the bandages with which his body had been wrapped were left in the tomb, but whenever Jesus appeared to his disciples he was fully clothed.
I don't understand why you can't accept the fact that the Only Begotten Son of God willingly and knowingly came to humanity to sacrifice his human body to save humanity. Jesus didn't take that mortal corruptible body back that he willingly sacrificed, instead he was resurrected a life giving spirit. 1Corinthians 15:45 who was given immortality and inherited incorruption.
The apostle Paul said at Acts 13:34 that the resurrected Jesus was thereafter “destined no more to return to corruption," that is, never to return to life in a corruptible human body. So the scriptures show us that Jesus came to humanity with a perfect, sinless, corruptible and mortal body, which he willingly sacrificed to save mankind, so was resurrected with a immortal incorruptible body who was a life giving spirit.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Why is that at Jesus resurrection the guards didn't see Jesus resurrected but they saw the Angels that were there. After Jesus’ resurrection he appeared in different bodies. Mary mistook him for the gardener.

You are incorrect:

Mt. 28:
3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

It was 1 angel and He appeared in his full glory, so the guards passed out!

Jesus did not appear in different bodies- that is a man made up opinion.

Mary did not expect to see Jesus in teh garden, and He may have had his robe hood up . But when she got close she recognized him.'

The disciples on the road to Emmaus, their eyes were kept from recognizing Jesus.

Believe the words of jesus instead teh subtle philosophy of a man made organization.

JOHN 2:

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Jesus said if you destroy His BODY, in three days HE WILL raise that body from the dead!

To say Jesus did not rise from the grave in the body He died in- is to call HIm a liar!

 

[Renniks]

Are they physical or spiritual?

Physical.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

You are incorrect:

Mt. 28:
3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

It was 1 angel and He appeared in his full glory, so the guards passed out!

Jesus did not appear in different bodies- that is a man made up opinion.

Mary did not expect to see Jesus in teh garden, and He may have had his robe hood up . But when she got close she recognized him.'

The disciples on the road to Emmaus, their eyes were kept from recognizing Jesus.

Believe the words of jesus instead teh subtle philosophy of a man made organization.

JOHN 2:

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Jesus said if you destroy His BODY, in three days HE WILL raise that body from the dead!

To say Jesus did not rise from the grave in the body He died in- is to call HIm a liar!

All the scriptures say at Matthew 28:3, 4 is like I said that it was only the Angels that the guards saw, they didn't see Jesus. You can deny this but it's going to remain the truth. The guards didn't see Jesus they saw the Angels not Jesus. Do you go ahead and deny what Matthew 28:3,4 says it's typical of those who deny the scriptures. Also I'm not denying that Jesus was resurrected, I just choose to believe what's written in the scriptures about how Jesus was resurrected and you don't.

 

[Timtofly]

You are incorrect:

Mt. 28:
3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

It was 1 angel and He appeared in his full glory, so the guards passed out!

Jesus did not appear in different bodies- that is a man made up opinion.

Mary did not expect to see Jesus in teh garden, and He may have had his robe hood up . But when she got close she recognized him.'

The disciples on the road to Emmaus, their eyes were kept from recognizing Jesus.

Believe the words of jesus instead teh subtle philosophy of a man made organization.

JOHN 2:

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Jesus said if you destroy His BODY, in three days HE WILL raise that body from the dead!

To say Jesus did not rise from the grave in the body He died in- is to call HIm a liar!

What about this verse: Mark 16:12

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

All the scriptures say at Matthew 28:3, 4 is like I said that it was only the Angels that the guards saw, they didn't see Jesus. You can deny this but it's going to remain the truth. The guards didn't see Jesus they saw the Angels not Jesus. Do you go ahead and deny what Matthew 28:3,4 says it's typical of those who deny the scriptures. Also I'm not denying that Jesus was resurrected, I just choose to believe what's written in the scriptures about how Jesus was resurrected and you don't.

I know they saw the angels and "passed out" or became as dead men. That doesn't mean Jesus wasn'r physically there. It just means they didn't see HIm. If you do not believe that jesus stood up again in the body he laid down in death with, then you are denying the resurrection.

For only that which is lain down can be stood up again! And Jesus was laid down in His body and rose again just like He told the unbelieving Pharisees He would do:

John 2:19-22
King James Version

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

This is what you have said you do not believe so you do not believe i a resurrection from the dead

Ana- again stasis standing!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What about this verse: Mark 16:12

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

And???? Before He died, He walked on water, took some jars of water and turned it to wine, spoke and raised a dead person, took a few loaves and some fish and fed close to 20,000!