New Heavens and New Earth

[Rex]

Shalom, Rex.



LOL! It's just my nature as a teacher. I'm the same way in my garden: I'll plant a type of seed, and even though I know that the germination of that type of seed will take between 8 and 10 days, I'm still out there checking every day! Lo and behold, up they start coming at the 8-day mark! Call it impatience, if you must, be I prefer to believe that it is simply a case of "hurry up and wait."

Shalom Retrobyter

I to dislike the hurry up and wait as well, but the only way I know is to keep going forward, and don't look back.
Thank for the nice reply, I really liked the nebula fact. I don't like talking about something that God Himself drove away. But I am looking for more evidence than is available about the reunion. I would think that all the text that describes the driving away, God would have clearly mentioned the reunion. Just my thoughts.

God Bless you
And thanks for putting up with me.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

No, the New Heavens and New Earth is not generally taught about even in BIble Colleges. This is such a central revelation in the New Testament that it equals the importance of speaking in other tougnes. In fact it is so intergral it is assumed and the references to it are "by the way." The New Testament cannot be understood properly without understanding this doctrine.

The New Heavens and New Earth are extremely similar to this creation.

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran.



Unless one is a pseudo-Gentile who is actually one of the Ten Tribes of Isra'el, then he/she as a true Gentile is adopted into the Jewish family because he/she is adopted into the Tribe of Y'hudah (Judah) through the Messiah Yeshua`. It is a common error to call all Isra'elites "Jews." I know that's wrong; you know that's wrong, but sometimes I still slip and say the wrong thing. I AM trying to be more cognizant of the truth, for your sake and for others like you, but I don't always remember to edit my work.

Actually, the Isra'elites who learn Yeshua` is the Messiah are also grafted into their own Olive Tree, just like the members of the Tribe of Y'hudah. See, I think the idea is a hold-over from the way Paul talked in Romans, since HE used the word "Jews" vs. the "Gentiles." He even used the terms "Jews" vs. "Greeks!" However, since he also talked about "Isra'el," I believe that it is obvious that he meant all twelve (or thirteen) tribes, not just the one (or two or three) that were "Judaea."

Gentile believers on Christ Jesus are not 'adopted Jews'. They are adopted into the household of God's Israel...


Eph 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(KJV)


The name Israel is the name which GOD Himself gave to Jacob to represent those who prevail with God, and it is directly connected with The Gospel of Jesus Christ and God's Birthright to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. I don't see the name Judah mentioned as receiving that... Birthright from God!

So if... you believe on Jesus of Nazareth as God's Promised Saviour unto Eternal Life, you are graffed in to the branch known as ISRAEL, not Jewry. And likewise ALL believing Gentiles are graffed into that SAME ISRAEL, what Apostle Paul called "the commonwealth of Israel" in the Eph.2 Scripture.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

The reason that is important to put the doctrine of the New Heavens and New Earth in it proper place within our theology is that many scriptures that we may be applying to the end of the church age or even to the millennium may actually apply to the world to come.

 

[veteran]

Retrobyter and veteran

Is it really necessary to bring solid food to those that haven't been weened? You're both mature yet you disagree about things your eyes have seen, things that can only be understood by the mature, deep thoughts of the Spirit. Why is it that you can't be satisfied with the knowledge yet to be reveled at it's appointed time. Your both right, the heavens testify day and night, that which the Lord has driven away He shall gather. Please both of you be wise and and hold with dignity the knowledge the Lord has blessed you with. Cast not your pearls before the swine. We all carry a crown "s" I prefer not to wave it in the face of the young. The Lord see's and knows what else really matters.


[sup]6 [/sup]Do not exalt yourself in the presence of the king,
And do not stand in the place of the great;
[sup]7 [/sup]For it is better that he say to you,
“Come up here,”
Than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince,
Whom your eyes have seen.

Retrobyter
I really like the heavens,
and veteran
you can plant and water but only God breaths the breath of life into a seed that has died.

Lets be about tending the crop instead of arguing about whether its going to rain or snow tomorrow.

God Bless all

Deep waters are drawn out by the wise in heart.
They are not proclaimed

Apostle Paul didn't suffer Judaizers who were trying to make themselves somewhat more than they really are, and I can't suffer them either.

The reason that is important to put the doctrine of the New Heavens and New Earth in it proper place within our theology is that many scriptures that we may be applying to the end of the church age or even to the millennium may actually apply to the world to come.

Definitely. Likewise with the great tribulation timing, Christ's coming and His future thousand years reign.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

Gentile believers on Christ Jesus are not 'adopted Jews'. They are adopted into the household of God's Israel...


Eph 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(KJV)


The name Israel is the name which GOD Himself gave to Jacob to represent those who prevail with God, and it is directly connected with The Gospel of Jesus Christ and God's Birthright to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. I don't see the name Judah mentioned as receiving that... Birthright from God!

So if... you believe on Jesus of Nazareth as God's Promised Saviour unto Eternal Life, you are graffed in to the branch known as ISRAEL, not Jewry. And likewise ALL believing Gentiles are graffed into that SAME ISRAEL, what Apostle Paul called "the commonwealth of Israel" in the Eph.2 Scripture.

Nuts. You must be out of your mind to put Gentiles into the children of Isra'el through the tribes of Efrayim and Manasheh! What do THEY have to do with God's Promised Savior unto Eternal Life?! Yeshua` was and IS a Jew, and He always WILL BE! It was a JEW who died on the cross as the "King of the Jews!" AS I ALREADY SAID (AND HAVE TO REPEAT MYSELF ENDLESSLY, APPARENTLY), one does NOT have to be a Jew to be "saved" (or rather, "justified by God")! HOWEVER, when one IS justified by God, they have become a part of the citizenship of Isra'el (that's ALL TWELVE tribes, btw, not just ten) because of a JEW'S (Yeshua`s) contribution to their justification! There's no "Judaizing" here, bro'! On the other hand, there's also no "Efrayimizing" or "Manashehizing," either! That's just meshuggah! Crazy! Insane!

"Salvation is of the Jews!" (John 4:22) That's not by virtue of being a "Jew"; that's by virtue of Yeshua` (whose name MEANS "SALVATION," btw) being a Jew, a member of the tribe of Y'hudah, a great, great, ..., great grandson of Y'hudah (Judah), the son of Isra'el, who was Ya`aqov (Jacob) before he was renamed, the son of Yitschaq (Isaac), the son of Avraham (Abraham)! The only reason why Yeshua` was a Jew is because both His mother (Miryam) and His adopted father (Yosef) were both Jews! He is the "Son of David," and David haMelekh (King David) was a Jew, who was a Jew because HIS father Yishai (Jesse) was a Jew, who was a Jew because HIS father `Oved (Obed) was a Jew, who was a Jew because HIS father Bo'az was a Jew, and the chain goes on all the way back to the FIRST "Jew" (Y'hudiy), Perets (Pharez, who technically was the fourth, after `Eer, Ownaan, and Sheelaah, Genesis 46:12; Ruth 4:13-22)!

The key here is in the Hebrew word "mishpachah!" We are all "FAMILY" through Yeshua`, grafted into the Olive Tree, the commonwealth (citizenship) of Isra'el! But, under which tribe? Not Efrayim nor Manasheh and not some new, fictional, unnamed tribe, either! If one is to be grafted newly into the commonwealth of Isra'el because Yeshua`s blood paid for Him, then He is a member through the Jewish clan. That's all I'm sayin'.

 

[Guestman]

Wow, I don't really understand why people are so into having God preserve this Heavens and Earth. That makes no sense to me at all from the scriptures.

At Genesis 1:1, it says: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." The starry heavens will remain forever along with the earth. These are estimated to be billions of years old, with the formation of the earth being created at the same time as the rest of the "heavens". How can this be known ?

At Psalms 104, it says: "Bless Jehovah, O my soul......He has founded the earth upon its established places (Hebrew makown, meaning "properly a fixture", H4349); It will not be made to totter to time indefinite ("time indefinite", Hebrew ohlam), or forever ("forever", Hebrew 'ad).(Ps 104:5) Furthermore at Psalms 89, it says of the moon, that "it shall be established for ever.....as a faithful witness in heaven."(Ps 89:37, King James Bible)

At Isaiah 66, it says: "This is what Jehovah has said: "The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool."(Isa 66:1) And at 1 Chronicles 16, David was inspired to says that "as for Jehovah, he made the heavens. Dignity and splendor are before him....Also the productive land is firmly established: Never will it be made to totter."(1 Chron 16:26, 30) Hence, God has no purpose in destroying the heavens, being called his "throne", and with the earth as his "footstool". Rather, the heavens and the earth are to remain forever, being "firmly established".

Then, where did the belief that the literal heavens and the earth are to be replaced with a literal "new heavens and a new earth" ? At 2 Peter 3, the King James Bible reads at verse 10: "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." Is this accurate that the earth (and the heavens) "shall be burned up" ? No. Why ?

Because someone after the 4th century supplanted the Greek word heurethesetai (meaning "to find or discover") with the Greek word katakaesetai (meaning "to burn down") at 2 Peter 3:10 in later Greek manuscripts. Both the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus of the 4th century have the Greek word heurethesetai. Hence, 2 Peter 3:10 more accurately reads: "Yet Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered."(New World Translation)

In addition, at 2 Peter 3:5, 6, Peter says that "there were heavens of old and an earth standing compactly out of water" before the Flood of Noah's day that suffered destruction by water. What is meant by the "heavens of old", that along with the earth was destroyed ? Peter now says that "by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men".(2 Pet 3:7) Since the "heavens of old" were wiped out, then what are "the heavens and the earth that are now" ? And what did Peter mean by these being "stored up for fire" and the "destruction of the ungodly men" ?

Simply put, "the heavens and the earth" that existed in Noah's days were (1) the "heavens" being any man-made institution that people of that time looked "up" to and (2) the "earth" were people of the earth who gave support, praise and favor toward the man-made "heavens", putting them as on a pedestal.

These human institutions or perhaps political arrangements "suffered destruction when it was deluged with water". Likewise of "the heavens and the earth that are now", with Peter providing insight that these are "reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men." Hence, all man-made institutions, governmental or otherwise, that people ("the earth") look to for support as "the heavens", are to "dissolved" (2 Pet 3:11) on the "day of judgment". All "ungodly men" will perish, with the symbolic "heavens and earth" being destroyed as by "fire". Fire in the Bible, when used in conjunction with God's anger, does not mean literal fire, but use of his power to wipe out individuals or nations that have opposed him or were disloyal.(Jer 4:4; 15:14)

Peter also speaks of a "new heavens and a new earth" at 2 Peter 3:13. What are these ? At the soon-to-be battle of Armageddon (Rev 16:16), the present "heavens", political governments and other institutions that people of the "earth" or the masses of mankind look "up" to ("the heavens and the earth that are now"), are done away with, and are replaced with "a new heavens" or heavenly governmental kingdom, God's kingdom, and with "a new earth", those who fully support God's kingdom and are to live on the earth forever as "meek " subjects of God's kingdom.(Ps 37:11, 29)

At 2 Peter 3:10, it says that when Jehovah's day comes "as a thief ", then "the (symbolic) heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the (symbolic) elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and (symbolic) earth and the works in it will be discovered." Human governmental "heavens", along with the all its various "elemental" aspects, "will be dissolved", totally annihilated by God's fiery anger, along with the "earth", those alienated from God, being "discovered" as against God rather than for him, with the wicked acts of men being exposed.

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran.

Nuts. You must be out of your mind to put Gentiles into the children of Isra'el through the tribes of Efrayim and Manasheh! What do THEY have to do with God's Promised Savior unto Eternal Life?! Yeshua` was and IS a Jew, and He always WILL BE! It was a JEW who died on the cross as the "King of the Jews!" AS I ALREADY SAID (AND HAVE TO REPEAT MYSELF ENDLESSLY, APPARENTLY), one does NOT have to be a Jew to be "saved" (or rather, "justified by God")! HOWEVER, when one IS justified by God, they have become a part of the citizenship of Isra'el (that's ALL TWELVE tribes, btw, not just ten) because of a JEW'S (Yeshua`s) contribution to their justification! There's no "Judaizing" here, bro'! On the other hand, there's also no "Efrayimizing" or "Manashehizing," either! That's just meshuggah! Crazy! Insane!

That's nothing BUT... Judaizing there. Like Apostle Paul said, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Gal.3:28).

"Salvation is of the Jews!" (John 4:22) That's not by virtue of being a "Jew"; that's by virtue of Yeshua` (whose name MEANS "SALVATION," btw) being a Jew, a member of the tribe of Y'hudah, a great, great, ..., great grandson of Y'hudah (Judah), the son of Isra'el, who was Ya`aqov (Jacob) before he was renamed, the son of Yitschaq (Isaac), the son of Avraham (Abraham)! The only reason why Yeshua` was a Jew is because both His mother (Miryam) and His adopted father (Yosef) were both Jews! He is the "Son of David," and David haMelekh (King David) was a Jew, who was a Jew because HIS father Yishai (Jesse) was a Jew, who was a Jew because HIS father `Oved (Obed) was a Jew, who was a Jew because HIS father Bo'az was a Jew, and the chain goes on all the way back to the FIRST "Jew" (Y'hudiy), Perets (Pharez, who technically was the fourth, after `Eer, Ownaan, and Sheelaah, Genesis 46:12; Ruth 4:13-22)!

The title of 'Jew' wasn't even in use until the return of a small remnant of the "house of Judah" back to Jerusalem after the 70 years Babylon captivity (as per the Jewish historian Josephus who lived in 100 A.D.). So how in the world... did God's ISRAEL ever... survive before without that title of 'Jew'??? It ONLY refers to ONE PART of the people of Israel, those who were separated apart from the great number of Israelites that NEVER used that title of 'Jew', i.e., the ten tribes with Ephraim as their head. Last time I looked at the number of the tribes of Israel per GOD"S WORD, Judah was only 'one' of them. ONLY those of the "house of Judah" can rightly be called Jews, because that's who the Jews of OT history were, the tribe of Judah with only the tribes of Benjamin and Levi joined with them. Apostle Paul was a Jew only because of that "house of Judah" group, because he was born of the tribe of Benjamin.

Therefore, the claim that ONLY Jews represent the 'seed' of Israel is a false claim. And the title "King of the Jews" Christ NEVER applied to Himself ANYWHERE in God's Word. The Title applied to Christ is ... King of Israel, and greater... King of kings, and Lord of lords. Even the people in Judea that expected Christ and believed on Him then knew to call Him this...

John 12:12-13
12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet Him, and cried, "Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord."
(KJV)

Was king David ever called king of the Jews? No. Was Solomon called 'king of the Jews'? Again no, and Christ's throne that He shall inherit on earth from His flesh ancestor David will not be called 'King of the Jews' either. And furthermore, the title "King of the Jews" is actually "King of Judea" per the Greek, for the word 'Jew' there is Ioudais in the sense of a 'country' (Strong's no. 2453). Not only that, but Christ Himself denied that title, and instead showed how it was the Jews that sought to kill Him...

John 18:33-36
33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto Him, "Art thou the King of the Jews?"
34 Jesus answered him, "Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of Me?"
35 Pilate answered, "Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered Thee unto me: what hast Thou done?"
36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence."
(KJV)

The key here is in the Hebrew word "mishpachah!" We are all "FAMILY" through Yeshua`, grafted into the Olive Tree, the commonwealth (citizenship) of Isra'el! But, under which tribe? Not Efrayim nor Manasheh and not some new, fictional, unnamed tribe, either! If one is to be grafted newly into the commonwealth of Isra'el because Yeshua`s blood paid for Him, then He is a member through the Jewish clan. That's all I'm sayin'.

You've got a huge... problem if you believe the other ten tribes of Israel like Ephraim, Manasseh, Naphtali, Gad, Zebulun, etc., are fictional. Even as a believing Jew on Christ Jesus, I don't think He would like you even inferring that idea.

The concept of Judaizing is that very idea you speak of, the false claim that a believer on Christ Jesus becomes a religious 'Jew' simply because our Lord Jesus was born of the tribe of Judah. It's a non-existant claim of ascendecy Jews try to make over leadership of Gentiles in Christ's Church. Apostle Paul spoke against that coniving in many places in his NT Epistles, and Acts 15 and Galatians 2 was a huge example of false brethren doing that.

I am not a Jew. I am a Christian, even though I may unknowingly have roots from the tribe of Judah when God scattered all 12 tribes of Israel among the Gentiles.


Amos 9:8-9
8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
(KJV)

Per that, God has NOT lost any... of the ten tribes of Israel which is who that "house of Israel" represented in Amos' day. God knows exactly where He scattered the majority of His people of Israel, even today, and the majority of the tribes of Israel were not, and never were, Jews of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. Because of your failed to grasp this Biblical matter, you will fail in properly identifying which specific Bible prophecies are to whom, for the end, for God gave some prophesied specifically to the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) that were never meant for the "house of Judah" (Jews), and visa versa.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Hi All,

Clear scripture always trumps vague scripture. You cannot say the verses in Peter and Revelations do not mean what they say simply because you pile vague scripture upon vague scripture.