New Heavens and New Earth

[Justin Mangonel]

New Heavens and New Earth ​

by​

Justin Mangonel​

I want to talk with you about a revelation that God has given me concerning the New Heavens and New Earth. This truth is meant to be an encouragement to those who are working hard for the kingdom of God. Surely Jesus is coming and His reward is with Him.

In the book of Isaiah it is written:

"That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy."

Isaiah 65:16-18​

And also in the book of 2 Peter we read:

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

2 Peter 3:13​

And finally in the book Revelation John sees:

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

Revelation 21:1​

Many Christians, if you ask them where they are going after they die will say, "I am going to Heaven". To them, heaven means that they will go to be with our Father in the realm in which He dwells. But according to the scriptures the eternal home of those who are saved is the New Heavens and the New Earth. The New Heavens and the New Earth is a second creation that God will speak into existence for those who know salvation. Consider this scripture about the bride of Christ in the book of Revelation,

"And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

Revelation 21:2​

Furthermore, the bride is made up of New and Old Testament believers; for the apostle Paul states that we are collectively a chaste virgin espoused (or betrothed) to Christ:

“For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.”

2 Corinthians 11:2​

Therefore, we, the called out ones, come down out of heaven into the New Heavens and New Earth. We change location. While we will be in heaven for a time and will probably have access to that realm as needed it is not our permanent dwelling place.

With this foundational understanding other major doctrines begin to make more sense. For instance, this creation is tainted by sin and corruption. Through Adam sin entered the world and the whole of creation was cursed. As it is written in book of Romans,

"Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."

Romans 8:21,22​

I believe that the curse brought on by Adam and the subsequent destruction of the flood was not merely localized to earth but rather was felt across the entire universe. This is why astronomers see such vast chaos in many corners of the cosmos. This creation is essentially damaged beyond repair, and God has determined that once He harvests the souls of those who believe in His son Jesus Christ He is going to completely destroy it.

As it is written in 1 Peter,

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

1 Peter 3:10​

People often refuse to believe that God would actually destroy this creation in favor of another one. However, someone who has limitless resources would not refurbish an old item to give as wedding present to His bride but will have the very best newly created.

This is also why God speaks of us as a new creature,

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

2 Corinthians 5:17​

It is essential that we become a new creature so that we can dwell in the New Creation because nothing of this old creation can exist there. All that is of this creation shall be burnt up; even the souls of them that refuse to acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord shall dwell in a lake of fire forever. As it is written in the book of Mark:

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"

(Hell was fashioned for Lucifer and those who followed him. I was created before this creation and is eternal. That is why those who are cast into the lake of fire suffer eternal torment for it was created for to torment eternal beings. )

Mark 9:43​

Furthermore, the New Heavens and New Earth is the very reason for the resurrection. As Paul writes in 1 Corinthians,

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

1 Corinthians 15:50-54​

Our bodies are to be resurrected and made immortal. Have you ever wondered why God would go to the trouble of performing this miracle? It is simply because just as we need bodies to interact with this present creation so we will need bodies to interact with the new creation. Our bodies have to be made new and perfect because they will need to function in a new and perfect creation. Perhaps our immortal bodies will be like those we would have had if Adam had never fallen.

Finally, God always gets His way. Even though the Devil tempted Adam and Eve to sin and bring forth corruption into this present Heavens and Earth God will simply pick up where He left off in the New Creation. Essentially, God is going to bring out those who will return to the Garden of Eden through faith in His only begotten Son and place them in a new paradise of God in the New Heavens and New Earth. The tree of life that was withheld from us because of our unbelief will be freely given to us through our faith. As it is written:

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

Revelation 2:7​

And also in the book of Revelation,

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

Revelation 22:2,14​

My friends, this is the joy that is set before us: to be wed to Jesus and live eternally in the presence of God as revealed through our bridegroom. As it is written,

"And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof"

Revelation 21:23​

Lastly, we are promised,

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

1 Corinthians 2:9​

Truly, there is nothing on this present earth, whose fashion is passing away, that is worth jeopardizing our chances of making the New Heavens and New Earth our eternal home.

 

[veteran]

​

Therefore, we, the called out ones, come down out of heaven into the New Heavens and New Earth. We change location. While we will be in heaven for a time and will probably have access to that realm as needed it is not our permanent dwelling place.

That's where you go off on your on and outside the Scriptures.

We do not go to Heaven; Heaven is coming HERE, upon this earth. That's the difference.

God is not going to literaly turn this earth into an asteroid belt. He is going to cleanse the 'surface' of the earth only. A deeper word study in Isaiah and in the NT on that like 2 Pet.3 reveals that point. The previous destructions Peter mentions involved a cleansing of man's works off the surface of this earth, not the total destruction of the earth.

What the coming new heavens and a new earth is about, is God releasing His creation from the 'bondage' state of vanity He placed it in which Paul spoke of in Romans 8, which happened when? At Genesis 1:2, because of Satan's original rebelliion of old. The fossil remains that exist today are from "the world that then was" which Peter spoke of.

On the last day of this present world, God's consuming fire is going to burn man's works off the surface of this earth, and it is set to happen at the time of Christ's second coming when He comes to gather His Church to Jerusalem on earth where He is going to. On that day, the "day of the Lord" per Scripture, Christ is going to gather the asleep saints from the four winds (put for the heavenly dimension), and those of His Church that remain alive on earth to that point will be 'changed' at the "twinkling of an eye" like Paul taught in 1 Cor.15.

That's what Paul meant in 1 Thess.4 that those in Christ who remain on earth to Christ's coming shall not 'precede' (KJV "prevent") the saints that have already died.

Paul's idea of being "caught up" (Greek harpazo) in 1 Thess.4 is about that sudden instant 'change' at the twinkling of an eye to our... spiritual bodies he also taught of in 1 Cor.15.

Flesh bodies = today's order, this time on earth; spiritual bodies = the heavenly order type body, when that change happens to those still on earth, to both the just and the unjust (wicked). We ALL are going to be changed to that kind of heavenly type body, the resurrection body.

It will be at an instant per the Isaiah prophecy. A blink of the eye, done. It will be as if a veil that has been put over this earth so we cannot see the heavenly dimension right among us is suddenly... removed, and we then see the heavenly right here... on this earth.


Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
(KJV)


Question is, who will wait for Him? and who will not?

 

[Rex]

Vet don't waste your breath, you need to put on a pare of Joesph's magic glasses If you want to see what he's getting at.
If you get my drift.

You may have even voted for such as this one.

 

[veteran]

Vet don't waste your breath, you need to put on a pare of Joesph's magic glasses If you want to see what he's getting at.
If you get my drift.

You may have even voted for such as this one.

He interjected the idea of a rapture to Heaven with a short stay while the earth is destroyed where that idea is not in God's Word.

And because of that very idea, he has succumbed to the wrong thinking that God is going to completely and totally destroy this earth and from scratch create a whole new one. That's not the idea His Word actually points to, for as written in the Psalms the earth is forever (Ps.78:69). One can find Scripture that 'sounds' like He is going to literally destroy the complete earth, but that's not the real idea per the OT prophets.

See, I'm not denying God's future bringing of a new heavens and a new earth in the 'cleansing' of this one sense. Nor am I denying the accompanying resurrection to the "spiritual body" which he pointed to. But marking the Scripture for each is important.

The deeper matter is that God's new heavens and a new earth is not going to happen until after the Rev.20 lake of fire event is done. That's after... Christ's future thousand years reign on earth with His saints if you'll notice. With Christ's 2nd coming, prior to His thousand years reign, that is when we all... will be 'changed' like Paul taught, which is a thousand years prior... to God's establishing of His new heavens and a new earth.


Do you understand why Rev.21 says there will be no more sea when God does that?

Rev 21:1-5
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And He That sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(KJV)

That "sea" refers to oceans on the earth today, covering about 2/3rds of the earth's surface. God is going to move those waters back up... into the sky atmosphere around this earth and plug all the holes in it. What do I mean with 'back up'? God's original perfect creation at Genesis 1:1 had all those waters up in the sky making a complete covering around the earth. The earth was like a greenhouse all round it, no hot or cold spots. That's why the fossils at the earth's poles from the "world that then was" exist to show tropical plant vegetation once grew there, as also in the desert areas of the earth. It made this whole earth like a literal Garden of Eden over all of it. And that's what our Heavenly Father is going to return this earth back to after Christ's thousand years reign, and after the lake of fire event.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Rex.

Vet don't waste your breath, you need to put on a pare of Joesph's magic glasses If you want to see what he's getting at.
If you get my drift.

You may have even voted for such as this one.

Why should Mormons be the only ones who have a literal New Earth? I'm neither Mormon nor a "Jehovah's Witness," but I believe in a VERY literal and physical New Earth and New Sky (what the Greek word "ouranos" means) Sure, like veteran said, only the earth's surface (the "earth" as in the "GROUND" or "FIELD" or "LAND") and the atmosphere (the "sky" as in the place where birds fly and clouds exist) are re-created, not the whole universe!

Look, sure we'll have new bodies, and they will have new attributes; however, they will STILL be physical bodies! "Spiritual" does NOT mean "non-physical!" The Greek word in 1 Corinthians 15 translated as "spiritual," "pneumatikos," is compared to "psuchikos," which comes from "psuchee" meaning "one that breathes" and is translated "soul!" "Pneumatikos" comes from "pneuma," which is usually translated "spirit." So, to be consistent, we should say that "spiritual" is compared to "soul-ual" (if you'll pardon the made-up word). The truth is that "pneuma" means "wind"; "breeze"; or a "forceful breath," and "psuchee" means "one that breathes." (This is verified in how "psuchee" is used in verse 45.) Both of the formed words are adjective forms from these nouns. Thus, "pneumatikos" means "windy" or "blasting" and "psuchikos" means "breathy" or "breathing."

One should see that this comparison is between the normal "breathing" of the First Man, Adam, and the "blasting" of the much stronger body of the Last Adam, Yeshua`. We know the "glory" or the "glow" of the normal human body. (This may even involve the biochemical aura that is seen in the Kirlian effect in Kirlian photography.)

Yeshua`s body NOTABLY glowed in the transfiguration, which was a foretaste of His glory in His Kingdom. He was also said (by John in Revelation) to have a "countenance" or face that rivaled the sun as well as eyes that shined like flames of fire and skin that shone as polished bronze!

Yeshua Himself said to His disciples after His resurrection,...

Luke 24:39-43
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
KJV

Thus, it is my contention that Yeshua`s resurrection body was quite literal and physical, just as our resurrection bodies will be! I also believe that most believers today have a bad definition of the word "spiritual."

***

Shalom, veteran.

He interjected the idea of a rapture to Heaven with a short stay while the earth is destroyed where that idea is not in God's Word.

And because of that very idea, he has succumbed to the wrong thinking that God is going to completely and totally destroy this earth and from scratch create a whole new one. That's not the idea His Word actually points to, for as written in the Psalms the earth is forever (Ps.78:69). One can find Scripture that 'sounds' like He is going to literally destroy the complete earth, but that's not the real idea per the OT prophets.

See, I'm not denying God's future bringing of a new heavens and a new earth in the 'cleansing' of this one sense. Nor am I denying the accompanying resurrection to the "spiritual body" which he pointed to. But marking the Scripture for each is important.

The deeper matter is that God's new heavens and a new earth is not going to happen until after the Rev.20 lake of fire event is done. That's after... Christ's future thousand years reign on earth with His saints if you'll notice. With Christ's 2nd coming, prior to His thousand years reign, that is when we all... will be 'changed' like Paul taught, which is a thousand years prior... to God's establishing of His new heavens and a new earth.

Do you understand why Rev.21 says there will be no more sea when God does that?

Rev 21:1-5
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And He That sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(KJV)

That "sea" refers to oceans on the earth today, covering about 2/3rds of the earth's surface. God is going to move those waters back up... into the sky atmosphere around this earth and plug all the holes in it. What do I mean with 'back up'? God's original perfect creation at Genesis 1:1 had all those waters up in the sky making a complete covering around the earth. The earth was like a greenhouse all round it, no hot or cold spots. That's why the fossils at the earth's poles from the "world that then was" exist to show tropical plant vegetation once grew there, as also in the desert areas of the earth. It made this whole earth like a literal Garden of Eden over all of it. And that's what our Heavenly Father is going to return this earth back to after Christ's thousand years reign, and after the lake of fire event.

Well said! However, when Yochanan (John) said that there was "no more sea," it is quite possible that he was talking about the MEDITERRANEAN Sea and not every ocean on the earth. On the other hand, I do believe that you're right about everything else, including the water canopy above the atmosphere. However, remember that in the original Creation, God created the atmosphere, separating the waters above the atmosphere from the waters below the atmosphere. I believe that He won't have to necessarily re-create the whole atmosphere but He would just have to raise about half the waters to create an ocean of water vapor above the atmosphere. However, the waters below the atmosphere will be supplemented by the "water of life" flowing from the New Jerusalem out of all twelve gates.

And, as you say, all this will happen AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

[Rex]

Shalom, Rex.

Yep you caught me at one of my less than finer moments I was in another thread with Justin. I haven't read this one and don't plan on it simply because it's to long and with dozens of other prophesy treads I doubt there's any revelation for me in it. I happen to see this one and knowing veteran can't resist commenting on any such thread I popped of the mouth about Justin. Shame on me, but thanks for your concern and the thoughtful reply I did like reading it and perhaps learned something.

God Bless

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Wow, I don't really understand why people are so into having God preserve this Heavens and Earth. That makes no sense to me at all from the scriptures.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Justin Mangonel.

Wow, I don't really understand why people are so into having God preserve this Heavens and Earth. That makes no sense to me at all from the scriptures.

It's simple really. God WILL NOT LOSE TO haSatan IN ANY WAY! Do you really think that God will have to "scrap the universe" on account of sin? NEVER! HE created the universe just as He wanted it to be! Neither mankind nor haSatan (a limited being, no matter how powerful) has the ability to cause God to recreate the whole thing! God WILL cleanse the earth because of mankind's filth, but that doesn't have to include even our solar system, much less the universe! That's the theological reason.

The Scriptural reason is far simpler: God has promised His Son the earth as His inheritance! Furthermore, He has promised Isra'el that they would live in the Land FOREVER! Just consider this simple prophecy:

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

Thus, Yeshua`s Kingdom is an EXTENSION of David's Kingdom! That is the LITERAL Kingdom of Isra'el as it was before it was divided in the days of his grandson, Rechav`am or "Rehoboam." Furthermore, "there shall be no end" to it! Compare this prophecy to that of Psalm 89:

Psalm 89:1-52
1 I will sing of the mercies of the Lord for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.
2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.
3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.
6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord?
7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
8 O Lord God of hosts, who is a strong Lord like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?
9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.
10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.
11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.
12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.
13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.
14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O Lord, in the light of thy countenance.
16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.
17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.
18 For the Lord is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.
39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.
40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.
41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.
42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.
43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.
44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.
45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.
46 How long, Lord? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?
47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain?
48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
49 Lord, where are thy former lovingkindnesses, which thou swarest unto David in thy truth?
50 Remember, Lord, the reproach of thy servants; how I do bear in my bosom the reproach of all the mighty people;
51 Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O Lord; wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.
52 Blessed be the Lord for evermore. Amen, and Amen.
KJV

If God destroys the sun and the moon, then He has destroyed the covenant that He made with His OWN SON, Yeshua` the Messiah, the Son of David! I don't think that He will do that, do you? Yet, HERE is what God said to Yeshua`:

Psalm 2:1-12
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed (Messiah, Christ), saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
KJV

Now, does it make sense? (It should!)

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Hi RT,

I don't think that destroying the entire universe violates any scripture. I mean, it does say a New Heavens and New Earth for the first was passed away. If I buy a new car it does not mean it is my old car fixed up.

For some reason there tend to be these strongly held assumptions that cloud the understanding of scripture. To me, I don't mind re-examining even the most foundational truths of Christianity because what we have now is obviously not working any where near what it should. I would rather know the truth and start living the dream rather than forcing scripture to support what is broken.

For me, only opening up my mind and heart to hear God's voice has allowed me to see beyond the presumptions I have either been told or made by myself. For instance, I was walking down a road one day and God spoke to me saying, "I am not coming back until the end of the millennium." Whoa!...I thought....that is something I never heard. However, I did not throw the thought out as demonic just because it went against most everything I had been taught. I considered it. Low and behold it dawned on me that Christ was dead for three days and if a day is as a thousand years to our Lord then perhaps He is not coming back for three thousand years instead of two. I really don't care if he comes back in two or three thousand years I just want to know the truth. Sometimes I think that false doctrine are made by people wanting something to be true so desperately that they force scripture agree with them rather than wanting to agree with scripture.

 

[veteran]

Hi RT,

I don't think that destroying the entire universe violates any scripture. I mean, it does say a New Heavens and New Earth for the first was passed away. If I buy a new car it does not mean it is my old car fixed up.

For some reason there tend to be these strongly held assumptions that cloud the understanding of scripture. To me, I don't mind re-examining even the most foundational truths of Christianity because what we have now is obviously not working any where near what it should. I would rather know the truth and start living the dream rather than forcing scripture to support what is broken.

For me, only opening up my mind and heart to hear God's voice has allowed me to see beyond the presumptions I have either been told or made by myself. For instance, I was walking down a road one day and God spoke to me saying, "I am not coming back until the end of the millennium." Whoa!...I thought....that is something I never heard. However, I did not throw the thought out as demonic just because it went against most everything I had been taught. I considered it. Low and behold it dawned on me that Christ was dead for three days and if a day is as a thousand years to our Lord then perhaps He is not coming back for three thousand years instead of two. I really don't care if he comes back in two or three thousand years I just want to know the truth. Sometimes I think that false doctrine are made by people wanting something to be true so desperately that they force scripture agree with them rather than wanting to agree with scripture.

If you get more into God's Word for yourself then you would know if what you heard inwardly was the Truth or not, and how to determine it. The full Godhead is not coming back to this earth until Christ's future thousand years reign is over. The Son is going to reign here on earth with His elect, and then the Judgement and then the "lake of fire" with Satan and the wicked destroyed. Then... the full Godhead is coming back to this earth to dwell with us.

So, not three thousand years, but a "thousand years" like the Rev.20-22 chapters show (including the last verse of Ezekiel 48).

 

[Justin Mangonel]

That is all you got out of what I wrote? I think you missed the point.

 

[John_8:32]

Wow, I don't really understand why people are so into having God preserve this Heavens and Earth. That makes no sense to me at all from the scriptures.

God did not "screw up" creating the heavens and the earth, His law or anything else that man seems to think was a colossal mistake. He will simply remove the source of problems...

Lev 16:20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

and restore all things...

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

or as the NKJV has verse 21...

Act 3:21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

The restoration of all things, not the disintegration and recreation.

 

[veteran]

God did not "screw up" creating the heavens and the earth, His law or anything else that man seems to think was a colossal mistake. He will simply remove the source of problems...

That's probably one of the best ways to put it yet. It's also what He did with the time of Satan's original rebellion, and also in the time of Noah.

The Hebrew root word for 'chadash' rendered as "new" in Isaiah 65:17 can also mean 'to rebuild' (Strong's 2318).

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Wow...it is interesting to see how people think. The first heavens and earth are passed away. That does not take the original language to figure out. Seems some have massive doctrinal stances they feel they need to protect and so the scriptures are kind of beside the point.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

I consider the final recreation like another passover, but this time with fire, explaining how we would survive this event while remaining on earth. I'm more of a completionist I guess, because of how far reaching I believe Jesus original covering goes and how many will have "his blood on their doorpost", so to speak. I do believe a recreation is more of a fit scripturally than a destruction and then a creation. Either idea can fit into "a new heavens and new earth". What that means is, I believe God will use what we already have and reform it into something new, rather than destroying it all and then making something out of nothing. The scripture I can think of is where it says He makes all things new, and so I don't know if here specifically he will be making "new things." I also assumed that the lake of fire was fire used from the center of the earth to remake everything. I didn't get that from anywhere I can note specifically.

"For me, only opening up my mind and heart to hear God's voice has allowed me to see beyond the presumptions I have either been told or made by myself. For instance, I was walking down a road one day and God spoke to me saying, "I am not coming back until the end of the millennium." Whoa!...I thought....that is something I never heard. However, I did not throw the thought out as demonic just because it went against most everything I had been taught. I considered it. Low and behold it dawned on me that Christ was dead for three days and if a day is as a thousand years to our Lord then perhaps He is not coming back for three thousand years instead of two. I really don't care if he comes back in two or three thousand years I just want to know the truth. Sometimes I think that false doctrine are made by people wanting something to be true so desperately that they force scripture agree with them rather than wanting to agree with scripture."

I usually separate God from the Holy Spirit and from Jesus, while holding the deity of all three. So what I think you're saying is that Jesus comes at the end of the great tribulation, and then comes at the end of the Millenium? Sin will exist 'til the end of the Millenium which is probably why God doesn't come until the very end.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Hi M,

No, what I mean is that I do not think Jesus is coming back until the end of the thousand years. Let me explain a bit.

Israel was and again shall be the chosen people of God. However, due to unbelief their branch was removed from the olive tree and the gentiles were grafted in...for a season. At some point Israel will be grafted back into the olive tree and we will be removed (most likely through rapture and martyrdom.)

The Law, which was to have been a school master to bring first Israel and then the gentiles to Christ, was never kept.

The Christian church has been a bit egocentric in that is makes the mistake of appropriating a great deal of the scriptures as speaking directly to them which most of them do not. Only in a secondary, typological sense, to the scriptures that primarily speak about Israel refer to the church in the age of the gentiles. This has led to much confusion and misinterpretation of prophecy.

The central fact of the matter is that "Jesus is a Jewish Messiah." Israel, as a whole, never accepted Him and that still needs to take place. I believe it will happen during the battle of God and Magog.

Commonly, end time teachers say that the antichrist and the false prophet will be defeated by Jesus Christ coming with ten thousand of His saints. The further teach that the Millennium will be sort of a worldwide super Christian church ruled from Jerusalem by Jesus. I don't see this happening based upon the latter chapters of Ezekiel. You cannot have animal sacrifices for sin and believe in Jesus...the two are incompatible.

I believe, at this point anyway, that Armageddon brings the gentile church age to a complete close. Nothing is left. Whoever is not raptured is martyred. The knowledge of Jesus Christ and the New Covenant is either lost or suppressed. Israel is made the head and not the tail of the nations that remain and they have sort of a mosaic revival. God essentially puts them back under the law and this time, with the old serpent and his minions bound for a thousand years, they kept it. The original intent of the law, to be a school master first to Israel and then to the nations of the Earth is fulfilled, thus finally preparing them to receive their Messiah. If you remember, Moses broke the original tablets due to Israel's sin. Then, when Israel repented (after judgment) he made another set.

The Antichrist and the false prophet are a gentile church age specific event that happens before the millennium but it has little to do with what happens in the next thousand years. The main event, which they may foreshadow, happens at the end of the millennium.

That is as close as I can explain it at this time.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Justin, You are an intriguing fellow. No disrespect meant but sometimes you can write something like "the Pharoah Who Knew Not Joseph" which rings true in my spirit but other times what you write seems downright whacky!

Really??! post-millennialism?? If I had to hazard a guess I would say that you sound like you are involved in what I call post-modern prophetics, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, would I be correct?

 

[martinlawrencescott]

It's actually a really good thing, the post millenium prophetics, as I guess we can call it. Here's my take on things. I do believe Jesus' return is before the start of the millenium (or the exact timing of it w/e). I think the point of the millenium is Christ's rule and reign and the delegation of His authority to the church. There are promises specific to Israel concerning the nation and the world which will be fulfilled during this time, however his kingdom has always been received by faith and in spirit. But we will be part of the nation of Israel at that point just as much as Israel will be part of the church. It's kind of a combination of all the promises, both physical and spiritual. A Jew by birth with be in charge of all the nation with delegated authority from Israel, but more than a Jew, he is the son of God and we share in His same spirit which runs thicker than blood. That's how I view the whole grafting thing. Some Jews won't make it because they reject the spirit whereas many Gentiles will because of it and have inherited the kingdom.

I could use some help here.

As far as the rapture goes, I fall in the group that considers it a meeting in the air during Christ's decent, meaning we go up, and then we're right back down here again. The whole heaven on earth thing.

"I believe, at this point anyway, that Armageddon brings the gentile church age to a complete close. Nothing is left."

I agree here, our system of authority will at that point be removed, but if it was only the Jewish system replacing it, it wouldn't be enough without the king in his place to rule as our spiritual head. There is still symbolism in the Old Testament sacrifical system that carries over all the way to the end of the millenium, however it was all completed in Christ.

"Whoever is not raptured is martyred."

I actually believe the martyrdom will have taken place before the rapture (or is part of the rapture by definition). I guess I'm a prerapture martyrist? The Christians who were killed will be taken first and the living will be taken after is the way I take that.

"The central fact of the matter is that "Jesus is a Jewish Messiah." Israel, as a whole, never accepted Him and that still needs to take place. I believe it will happen during the battle of God and Magog."

The system of authority of demons also has to be ready to be handed over.

The way I see the millenium is how sin still rises it's head under Jesus' rule and reign. Even under a perfect government head, if sin exists in the flesh of his people, there will still be problems. It's almost like a picture of salvation and sanctification, except in the case of the entire world.

Each animal in the Old Testament has a specific symbolism that foreshadows the events which conclude the millenium. God is using this period of time to refine his people and ready them for the final judgment. I expect great acts of heroism on part of His people, just how Jesus stands up for us. It'll come back to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, where it all began. If we were created in God's image, and after we ate from the tree, then the knowledge of evil is not necessary to be like God. I think our whole concept of what is evil will change.

I don't know about the latter chapter of Ezekiel reference, maybe you can explain that to me. I thought that Israel will continue to sacrifice again before the start of the millenium and before Christ's return.

A lot of this is new to my study. Not all of this is revelatory, but at least fits in my rational thinking. That's all I got atm.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Hi trek and martin,

Post modernism prophetic? Could you explain what you mean a bit more? I have never heard that phrase before.

Here is the thing; most of the Christian church has assumed that we have all the pieces to the jigsaw puzzle. All that remains is to fit them together. What if, that assumption was wrong? What if we only have a fraction of a much larger jigsaw puzzle?

What God has been leading me to do is to assume the latter. Therefore I have been trying to step back and imagine, hopefully through the Holy Spirit, what the picture looks like from the few pieces we have. Like an archeologist tries to place each bone or even fragment of a bone into the place where they would logically fit I have been placing scriptures and doctrines where they best fit in order to glimpse a picture of the whole. What I have found is stunning. I wish I were a better theologian because this needs some serious explaining so that people can understand some of these things.

In the beginning, God had a plan for mankind that did not include any of what has gone on in the last six thousand years. God's creation was perfect and would have continued on that way indefinitely had not sin been introduced into it from an outside conflict. We are on essentially a 7 thousand year detour from what God originally intended. Just as the children of Israel ended up at the same place 40 years later so to mankind will return to its pre-fallen state and, through faith, continue on to complete the journey that God had in mind all along. For us in the gentile church age this is the perfection of the saints.

You know, I have only been able to hear what God has been saying to me as I have been willing to not be afraid to consider what He says. I am convinced that revelation comes to those who are open to hear even if it sets them apart. Fear of shunning is a very real problem for those who listen to the current word of God. It is not that they want to be set apart but it happens simply by virtue of moving closer to where God truly is.

Viewed through the lens of normative Christianity some of what I say seems wacky...I will give you that. However, unless we are able to look at things from a different angel we will never see beyond what we already know. As Pentecostal theology is to Reformation theology so too is Tabernacle theology to Pentecostal theology. The Spiritual fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles in the church age is the final step that will bring those willing into the image and likeness of Jesus Christ.

The last two thousand years of church history has been an anomaly. I was not supposed to happen. We are only experiencing a foretaste of the world to come because of Israel's unbelief and subsequent partial blindness. The times of the gentiles are coming to a close because Israel is about to turn back to God with such force that the world will reel from the impact. Our time will be finished because first string will have been called back out onto the playing field of God.

To me the latter chapters of the book of Ezekiel are monumental. They speak of a new temple complete with the Mosaic Law (with some small alterations). The priesthood is put back in place. The Land is reapportioned and Israel is called a back to occupy it. The chariot of God comes back through the east gate from whence it left. A prince...not a king but a prince...rules God's people and fathers children. Israel becomes the head and not the tail of the nations. God blesses them and judges those who do not honor their law. This is something that is going to literally happen.

After the return of Christ to defeat the armies of Gog and Magog, God creates a New Heavens and New Earth. He creates a New Jerusalem. He places us in a perfect world. He will walk among us once again. The tree of life (perhaps even the one that was in Eden...after all its fruit does give immortality) is presented to us once again as we walk on streets of clear gold.

The stunning truth, my friends, is that the jig saw puzzle is gigantic when we have been assuming it is of manageable size. If we realize this and dare to put the pieces together and place them where they logically fit, here a little and there a little, then it is just barely possible to start to glimpse something so magnificent, so compelling, so thrilling that the half has not yet been told.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Hi Justin,

This is good stuff. Maybe, if you will allow, I might add a little to what you have said. Heaven and earth, to the Jew was the place where man and God meet, the temple in Jerusalem. More on that is at: http://www.racheladelman.com/ Rachael is a Professor of the Hebrew Bible and she has an article about Jacob's vision, which explains Heaven and earth from Jewish point of view. She makes perfect sense when one understands that the "temple of God" is now within us. So instead of going to the temple to praise God, we can praise God and feel his presence anytime, anywhere.

One other point, there are, according to the bible, gifts of the Spirit (plural) and the gift of the Spirit (singular). The "gifts" can be found in I Cor and the "gift" is mentioned whenever one receives the Holy Ghost. That gift is "Eternal Life".