why are you so against the rapture idea? paul may not of called it the rapture but he did refer to it and talk about it. the rapture probably first became an issue of debate in the 1830s but it is talked about in the word of God so we know it is older then the 1830s.
New Views on the Rapture
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Why are you so against the actual Scripture that Christ returns to gather us AFTER the tribulation AS WRITTEN? (Matt.24:29-31).
Paul NEVER referred to a Pre-trib secret Rapture idea, period. And you cannot prove it either.
By most accounts Paul stayed in Thessalonica for only about 3 weeks and during that time he founded a Church and taught them the doctrines of salvation and sanctification, the Trinity, the nature of man, the assurance of pardon, and the Day of the Lord. He continued teaching them after he left with his first letter, written from Corinth in 51 AD, in which he introduced the doctrine of the rapture (1 Thes. 4:16-17). Shortly after that they received another letter appearing to be from him, announcing that the Day of the Lord had come. They reacted with fear and confusion and immediately sought clarification.
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus and our being gathered to Him, we ask you brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy report or letter supposed to have come from us saying that the Day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let any one deceive you in any way for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. (2 Thes 2:1-3)
From Paul’s response it’s clear the previous letter had been a forgery, sent by someone pretending to be him and designed to frighten them. It worked. The Greek words for unsettle and alarm literally mean to agitate, incite, and frighten. Something in the letter had contradicted their understanding of his teaching and they were upset. Reading 2 Thes 2:1-3 we see that the forgery must have disputed Paul’s teaching on events leading up to the Day of the Lord. This is the only logical explanation for his 2nd letter to the Thessalonians.
Notice that right from the beginning Paul separated the coming of the Lord from our being gathered to Him. That’s because they’re two different events. We can’t tell their relative timing from this, but we can tell they’re not the same thing. One is when He comes back down to Earth, while from 1 Thes. 4:16-17 we know the other has us going up to meet Him in the air and continuing to Heaven. The 2nd coming will be witnessed by everyone (Matt. 24:30), but the rapture is an instantaneous disappearance (1 Cor. 15:51-52) that happens without warning.
This quote from Romans 15:4 tells us that Paul wasn’t just writing to the Thessalonian believers. He was also writing to us. Think about it. The Day of the Lord is a term that always refers to the End Times and most often to the Great Tribulation. If Paul had taught them to expect a post-tribulation rapture would they have been agitated and frightened upon receiving the forgery? No! It would more likely have made them think the 2nd coming was only a few years away and many of them would live to see it.
The only justification for their fear and confusion would be if Paul had taught them a pre-trib rapture. In that case a letter telling them the Day of the Lord had come would mean they had missed the rapture, and that would mean they weren’t saved. Now we can see how they would be agitated, angry and afraid. Imagine how you would you feel in a situation like that.
From 2 Thes 2:1-3 we can begin to construct Paul’s teaching on the chronology of events leading up to the Day of the Lord. Remember, there’s an abundance of proof from his other letters showing that Paul taught the doctrine of eternal security, aka once saved always saved. Some of the most obvious references are Romans 8:38-39, Romans 10:9-10, 2 Cor 1:21-22, Ephes. 1:13-14, and Titus 3:4-7. In all of them Paul taught that true believers cannot fall away from faith for any reason. He said the Lord guaranteed our inheritance and sealed the Holy Spirit inside us as a deposit.
But Paul spoke of a rebellion (falling away) in 2 Thes 2:3 that would have to precede the Day of the Lord. The Greek word translated rebellion is apostasia, from which we get apostasy. It means people would abandon something they once considered themselves to be part of and the context implies that it’s the church. You can’t fall away from something unless you first think of yourself as being part of it. But true believers can’t fall away at all. Therefore this rebellion or apostasy has to manifest itself in what’s left of the church after the rapture removes all the true believers.
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus and our being gathered to Him, we ask you brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy report or letter supposed to have come from us saying that the Day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let any one deceive you in any way for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. (2 Thes 2:1-3)
From Paul’s response it’s clear the previous letter had been a forgery, sent by someone pretending to be him and designed to frighten them. It worked. The Greek words for unsettle and alarm literally mean to agitate, incite, and frighten. Something in the letter had contradicted their understanding of his teaching and they were upset. Reading 2 Thes 2:1-3 we see that the forgery must have disputed Paul’s teaching on events leading up to the Day of the Lord. This is the only logical explanation for his 2nd letter to the Thessalonians.
Notice that right from the beginning Paul separated the coming of the Lord from our being gathered to Him. That’s because they’re two different events. We can’t tell their relative timing from this, but we can tell they’re not the same thing. One is when He comes back down to Earth, while from 1 Thes. 4:16-17 we know the other has us going up to meet Him in the air and continuing to Heaven. The 2nd coming will be witnessed by everyone (Matt. 24:30), but the rapture is an instantaneous disappearance (1 Cor. 15:51-52) that happens without warning.
This quote from Romans 15:4 tells us that Paul wasn’t just writing to the Thessalonian believers. He was also writing to us. Think about it. The Day of the Lord is a term that always refers to the End Times and most often to the Great Tribulation. If Paul had taught them to expect a post-tribulation rapture would they have been agitated and frightened upon receiving the forgery? No! It would more likely have made them think the 2nd coming was only a few years away and many of them would live to see it.
The only justification for their fear and confusion would be if Paul had taught them a pre-trib rapture. In that case a letter telling them the Day of the Lord had come would mean they had missed the rapture, and that would mean they weren’t saved. Now we can see how they would be agitated, angry and afraid. Imagine how you would you feel in a situation like that.
From 2 Thes 2:1-3 we can begin to construct Paul’s teaching on the chronology of events leading up to the Day of the Lord. Remember, there’s an abundance of proof from his other letters showing that Paul taught the doctrine of eternal security, aka once saved always saved. Some of the most obvious references are Romans 8:38-39, Romans 10:9-10, 2 Cor 1:21-22, Ephes. 1:13-14, and Titus 3:4-7. In all of them Paul taught that true believers cannot fall away from faith for any reason. He said the Lord guaranteed our inheritance and sealed the Holy Spirit inside us as a deposit.
But Paul spoke of a rebellion (falling away) in 2 Thes 2:3 that would have to precede the Day of the Lord. The Greek word translated rebellion is apostasia, from which we get apostasy. It means people would abandon something they once considered themselves to be part of and the context implies that it’s the church. You can’t fall away from something unless you first think of yourself as being part of it. But true believers can’t fall away at all. Therefore this rebellion or apostasy has to manifest itself in what’s left of the church after the rapture removes all the true believers.
That's a falsehood, especially that statement in bold. Paul was actually teaching JUST THE OPPOSITE IDEA there...
II Th 2:1-4
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(KJV)
Clearly, Paul was giving conditions that had to occur first, prior to that "day of Christ" (day of the Lord per the Greek).
If whoever wrote that junk lied so blatantly against the written Scripture per that first paragraph, the rest of that post is as much as suspect. I don't see how anyone claiming Christ Jesus as their Saviour could throw out such falseness against the actual written Scripture!!
veteran
it is useless trying to discuss with you unless you try and understand where the other person is coming from. if you do know where a person is coming from and you know you are right then it should be easy for you to teach what the scripture is saying and why it is saying that instead of of just quoting scripture and claiming it explains the circumstances. if you understand ot testament scripture so well then it should be easy for you to explain it and use scripture to back it up. all you do is post scripture and then say this scripture proves my point. a person who understands something really well should be able to explain it to a child and what you post can by no means be understood by any little child. according to the word we are to have at least 2 or 3 scriptures to back up any point to help us keep false doctrine away. you do not do that. and for someone that claims to know scripture like you say you do then you should be able to explain your situation to anyone and still get your point across. you cannot do this. the only thing you do is quote scripture which only you seem to have a grasp on most times and when you have no sensible reply to an answer then you insult people and their beliefs by calling it false doctrine. the word teaches we will all be judged by how we judge others.
[sup]1[/sup]BUT RELATIVE to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren,
and separates 2 separate events.
[sup]2[/sup]Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here.
this is where the false letter and false revelation of the day of the Lord comes from. if they did not have trouble with these two things then paul would not have stated in in this way. it is too bad we don't have the letter that went to paul so we would know exactly what was happening but since we don't we are to try and discern. we are to do the best we can until more revelation comes to us concerning this matter. what paul is talking about in this verse is the day of the Lord because from the way they are speaking that someone has told them they have missed the rapture. If Paul had taught them to expect a post-tribulation rapture(which is where you are coming from) would they have been agitated and frightened upon receiving the false doctrine? No! It would more likely have made them think the 2nd coming was only a few years away and many of them would live to see it.
[sup]3[/sup]Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the [sup][a][/sup]apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great [sup][b][/sup]falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),
v 3 is referring to the day of the Lord happening after all these great trib events. the rapture of the church is taught that we will not be here to suffer God's wrath.
[sup]4[/sup]Who opposes and exalts himself so proudly and insolently against and over all that is called God or that is worshiped, [even to his actually] taking his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God.
still talking of what is to come before the great trib.
[sup]5[/sup]Do you not recollect that when I was still with you, I told you these things?
still talking of the day of the Lord. it would be out of context here to think he was talking of the church.
[sup]6[/sup]And now you know what is restraining him [from being revealed at this time]; it is so that he may be manifested (revealed) in his own [appointed] time.
this is the Holy Spirit which is doing the restraining until the appointed time.
[sup]7[/sup]For the mystery of lawlessness (that hidden principle of rebellion against constituted authority) is already at work in the world, [but it is] restrained only until [sup][c][/sup]he who restrains is taken out of the way.
this shows us that the lawless one cannot show up until the Holy Spirit is out of the way. the Holy Spirit is part of the church and when the lawless one is released God will give him power to overcome the saints.(rev 13:7) this is another reason that the church will be gone because this is contrary to what God says we as the church have power over principalities and powers of the evil one. God would not go against his word.
[sup]8[/sup]And then the lawless one (the antichrist) will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by His appearing at His coming.
this is the day of the Lord that the Lord returns after the great trib.
it is useless trying to discuss with you unless you try and understand where the other person is coming from. if you do know where a person is coming from and you know you are right then it should be easy for you to teach what the scripture is saying and why it is saying that instead of of just quoting scripture and claiming it explains the circumstances. if you understand ot testament scripture so well then it should be easy for you to explain it and use scripture to back it up. all you do is post scripture and then say this scripture proves my point. a person who understands something really well should be able to explain it to a child and what you post can by no means be understood by any little child. according to the word we are to have at least 2 or 3 scriptures to back up any point to help us keep false doctrine away. you do not do that. and for someone that claims to know scripture like you say you do then you should be able to explain your situation to anyone and still get your point across. you cannot do this. the only thing you do is quote scripture which only you seem to have a grasp on most times and when you have no sensible reply to an answer then you insult people and their beliefs by calling it false doctrine. the word teaches we will all be judged by how we judge others.
[sup]1[/sup]BUT RELATIVE to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren,
and separates 2 separate events.
[sup]2[/sup]Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here.
this is where the false letter and false revelation of the day of the Lord comes from. if they did not have trouble with these two things then paul would not have stated in in this way. it is too bad we don't have the letter that went to paul so we would know exactly what was happening but since we don't we are to try and discern. we are to do the best we can until more revelation comes to us concerning this matter. what paul is talking about in this verse is the day of the Lord because from the way they are speaking that someone has told them they have missed the rapture. If Paul had taught them to expect a post-tribulation rapture(which is where you are coming from) would they have been agitated and frightened upon receiving the false doctrine? No! It would more likely have made them think the 2nd coming was only a few years away and many of them would live to see it.
[sup]3[/sup]Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the [sup][a][/sup]apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great [sup][b][/sup]falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),
v 3 is referring to the day of the Lord happening after all these great trib events. the rapture of the church is taught that we will not be here to suffer God's wrath.
[sup]4[/sup]Who opposes and exalts himself so proudly and insolently against and over all that is called God or that is worshiped, [even to his actually] taking his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God.
still talking of what is to come before the great trib.
[sup]5[/sup]Do you not recollect that when I was still with you, I told you these things?
still talking of the day of the Lord. it would be out of context here to think he was talking of the church.
[sup]6[/sup]And now you know what is restraining him [from being revealed at this time]; it is so that he may be manifested (revealed) in his own [appointed] time.
this is the Holy Spirit which is doing the restraining until the appointed time.
[sup]7[/sup]For the mystery of lawlessness (that hidden principle of rebellion against constituted authority) is already at work in the world, [but it is] restrained only until [sup][c][/sup]he who restrains is taken out of the way.
this shows us that the lawless one cannot show up until the Holy Spirit is out of the way. the Holy Spirit is part of the church and when the lawless one is released God will give him power to overcome the saints.(rev 13:7) this is another reason that the church will be gone because this is contrary to what God says we as the church have power over principalities and powers of the evil one. God would not go against his word.
[sup]8[/sup]And then the lawless one (the antichrist) will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by His appearing at His coming.
this is the day of the Lord that the Lord returns after the great trib.
Now a proper study of the 2 Thess.2 Scripture according to what the words actually mean...
II Th 2:1-12
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him.
The subject? The coming of Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him. That's about Christ's SECOND coming, which is still... future to us today. Per Paul also in 1 Thess.5, we already know that's to occur on "the day of the Lord", so Paul is NOT speaking any such idea that that day had already come. (Notice what 7angels posted wrongly suggested that day of the Lord "had come", which is past tense.)
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Paul is simply saying don't be troubled about that day, not by spirit, nor by words men speak, not even by a letter "as from us". What does that mean, "as from us"? It means someone that disguises themselves as Christ's Apostles by trying to pass off FAKE letters which they did not write. False ones had crept in among the Thessalonians and were trying to pass off false letters to the congregation saying they were from Paul, Peter, i.e., Christ's Apostles.
The phrase "as that day of Christ is at hand" simply means that 'day' is NEAR to come. It does not mean it had already come, nor that it was past. Since that "day of Christ" is the "day of the Lord" per 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3:10, we well know that day is about Christ's second coming, and is still.. yet to come.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Paul says to not allow any man deceive by any... means, for the day of Christ's coming won't come "except"... what? That except means a condition must first be fulfilled. The condition Paul gives involves 2 events connected with each other: 1) a time of great falling away (apostasy), and 2) the man of sin must be revealed for who he is, exalting himself above God or all that is worshipped, so that he AS God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
When Paul had been with them before he had forewarned them about this event. But because of false ones throwing out a lie to them, he was having to remind them again about this false one coming to exalt himself above God and all that is worshipped.
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
That false one that's coming is being held, until it's time for his releasing upon this earth for the future tribulation time. That's when he is to be revealed. Per Daniel 10, it's the Archangel Michael that's holding him until the time.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
That coming false one is called "that Wicked" here, so notice the KJV translators capitalized "Wicked" to show that as a pronoun, which means a specific entity, a person. That verse also verifies the Matt.24:29-31 order of Christ's coming to end the tribulation that Wicked one will cause. Christ's coming is after the tribulation of those days to destroy that Wicked one.
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
That Wicked one is to perform lying wonders, signs, and miracles in order to deceive those who perish that did not receive the love of the truth.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(KJV)
And because the damned have pleasure in unrighteousness, God is going to send them "strong delusion" so they will believe a lie. The lie those will believe is bowing in false worship to "that Wicked" one when he comes.
II Th 2:1-12
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him.
The subject? The coming of Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him. That's about Christ's SECOND coming, which is still... future to us today. Per Paul also in 1 Thess.5, we already know that's to occur on "the day of the Lord", so Paul is NOT speaking any such idea that that day had already come. (Notice what 7angels posted wrongly suggested that day of the Lord "had come", which is past tense.)
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Paul is simply saying don't be troubled about that day, not by spirit, nor by words men speak, not even by a letter "as from us". What does that mean, "as from us"? It means someone that disguises themselves as Christ's Apostles by trying to pass off FAKE letters which they did not write. False ones had crept in among the Thessalonians and were trying to pass off false letters to the congregation saying they were from Paul, Peter, i.e., Christ's Apostles.
The phrase "as that day of Christ is at hand" simply means that 'day' is NEAR to come. It does not mean it had already come, nor that it was past. Since that "day of Christ" is the "day of the Lord" per 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3:10, we well know that day is about Christ's second coming, and is still.. yet to come.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Paul says to not allow any man deceive by any... means, for the day of Christ's coming won't come "except"... what? That except means a condition must first be fulfilled. The condition Paul gives involves 2 events connected with each other: 1) a time of great falling away (apostasy), and 2) the man of sin must be revealed for who he is, exalting himself above God or all that is worshipped, so that he AS God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
When Paul had been with them before he had forewarned them about this event. But because of false ones throwing out a lie to them, he was having to remind them again about this false one coming to exalt himself above God and all that is worshipped.
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
That false one that's coming is being held, until it's time for his releasing upon this earth for the future tribulation time. That's when he is to be revealed. Per Daniel 10, it's the Archangel Michael that's holding him until the time.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
That coming false one is called "that Wicked" here, so notice the KJV translators capitalized "Wicked" to show that as a pronoun, which means a specific entity, a person. That verse also verifies the Matt.24:29-31 order of Christ's coming to end the tribulation that Wicked one will cause. Christ's coming is after the tribulation of those days to destroy that Wicked one.
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
That Wicked one is to perform lying wonders, signs, and miracles in order to deceive those who perish that did not receive the love of the truth.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(KJV)
And because the damned have pleasure in unrighteousness, God is going to send them "strong delusion" so they will believe a lie. The lie those will believe is bowing in false worship to "that Wicked" one when he comes.
2 Thessalonians 1:5 - 2:4
All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. THIS INCLUDES YOU, because you believed our testimony to you.
With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith. We pray this so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
He's coming to punish the wicked and also to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed, meaning both parties are still on earth at the second coming.
All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. THIS INCLUDES YOU, because you believed our testimony to you.
With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith. We pray this so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
He's coming to punish the wicked and also to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed, meaning both parties are still on earth at the second coming.
TWC wrote -
He's coming to punish the wicked and also to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed, meaning both parties are still on earth at the second coming.
To confirm that, please consider the following verse -
Revelation 12:17
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
If the Christians are raptured before the tribulation then who is left for the dragon to make war with?
Thanks, JLB
He's coming to punish the wicked and also to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed, meaning both parties are still on earth at the second coming.
To confirm that, please consider the following verse -
Revelation 12:17
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
If the Christians are raptured before the tribulation then who is left for the dragon to make war with?
Thanks, JLB
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Episkopos.
No, that's not true. Tsiown (Zion) is a MOUNTAIN in Isra'el where Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) sits, and Yeshua` is certainly NOT on that mountain right now! Please quote the Scripture(s) that you use to support your view so one can show you how you've misinterpreted the Scripture.
The truth is that Yeshua` WILL come to Har Tsiown in the future, and prophecies frequently see the future as though it were the present; however, Yeshua` has not yet arrived as promised in Acts 1:9-11.
No, that's not true. Tsiown (Zion) is a MOUNTAIN in Isra'el where Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) sits, and Yeshua` is certainly NOT on that mountain right now! Please quote the Scripture(s) that you use to support your view so one can show you how you've misinterpreted the Scripture.
The truth is that Yeshua` WILL come to Har Tsiown in the future, and prophecies frequently see the future as though it were the present; however, Yeshua` has not yet arrived as promised in Acts 1:9-11.
That's true, the Zion (Sion per NT) is the mount Zion in Jerusalem, even in the following type Scripture examples...
Heb 12:22-24
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
(KJV)
So how can that above Scripture about "Sion" specifically mean in Jerusalem on earth while pointing to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem? It's kind of simple only if we stay focused that it's pointing to God's future Kingdom upon this earth under Christ Jesus.
The heavenly Jerusalem ("new Jerusalem" of Revelation) is to come 'down'... to this earth where today's Jerusalem is. It's still... going to be 'heavenly' Jerualem while manifested upon this earth. Kind of a difficult idea to get hold of I know, but it's about the joining of this earthly dimension with the heavenly dimension, in the same space. One of the 'pearls' about that is, that's actually how things were prior to Satan's rebellion.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shabbat shalom, veteran.
Please remember that the word "heavenly" in Hebrews 12:22 is NOT the same as the word "heavenly" in ... say ... Matthew 6:14, 26, 32, 15:18; Luke 2:13; or Acts 26:19. In those verses, the Greek word is "ouranios," meaning "of the sky." In Hebrews 12:22, it is the Greek word "EPouranios," meaning "of ABOVE-the-sky."
I suppose in a sense the New Jerusalem will still be an "epouranios" city since it will tower above the earth's atmosphere, even when sitting on the New Earth; however, don't make the mistake of thinking that this is some sort of "heavenly dimension." That's NOT what the word means.
Wikipedia says this about "Mount Zion" at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Zion:
Actually, the confusion as to its location is found in the truth is that "Mount Zion" is not a single mountain but a mountain RANGE upon which Jerusalem sits! It's the RIDGE upon which Yerushalayim was constructed which includes several peaks.
You might also find it interesting to consider that there are verses of prophecy that CONFUSE the mountain with the city, both in the OT and the NT. A couple of examples would be Psalm 48:1-2 and Hebrews 12:22, the verse with which we are dealing:
The Hebrew of Psalm 48:1-2 (2-3) is this:
2 Gadowl YHVH uwmhulaal m'od b`iyr Eloheeynuw Har-qaadshow:
3 Yfeeh nowf msows kaal-haa'Aarets Har-Tsiown yarkteey tsaafown qiryat-Melekh raav:
2 Gadowl = 2 Great
YHVH = (the)-LORD
uwmhulaal = and-to-be-praised
m'od = constantly (literally, "from-always")
b`iyr = in-city
Eloheeynuw = (of)-our-God
Har- = Mount-
qaadshow: = (of)-His-Holiness.
3 Yfeeh = 3 Beautifully
nowf = positioned
msows = from-delight
kaal- = (of)-all-
haa'Aarets = the-Earth
Har- = Mount
Tsiown = Zion
yarkteey = aligned-with
tsaafown = north
qiryat- = building-
Melekh = (of)-King
raav: = abundant:
2 Great (the)-LORD and-to-be-praised constantly in-city (of)-our-God Mount-(of)-His-Holiness.
3 Beautifully positioned from-delight (of)-all-the-Earth Mount Zion aligned-with north building-(of)-King abundant.
So, we have "in our God's city 'Mount of His Holiness'" and "Mount Zion aligned with north a building (city) of (the) abundant King." Thus, the city is a mountain and the mountain is a city!
The Greek of Hebrews 12:22 is this:
22 Alla proseleeluthate Sioon orei kai polei Theou zoontos, Ierousaleem epouranioo, kai muriasin aggeloon, paneegurei...
22 Alla = 22 But
proseleeluthate = ye-are-come
Sioon = (to)-Zion
orei = mount
kai = and
polei = city
Theou = (of)-God
zoontos, = living,
Ierousaleem = Jerusalem
epouranioo, = of-above-the-sky,
kai = and
muriasin = a-myriad
aggeloon, = of-messengers,
paneegurei... = a-mass-meeting...
22 But ye-are-come (to)-Zion mount and city (of)-God living, Jerusalem of-above-the-sky, and a-myriad of-messengers, a-mass-meeting...
So, in this verse, we have "Zion a mount and a city of living God, above-the-sky Jerusalem." Notice that both "mount" (orei) and "city" (polei) have the same case! They BOTH refer to Zion AND to "above-the-sky Jerusalem!"
Now, why do you suppose that the city is confused with the mountain? Could it be because the New Jerusalem is 1,500 MILES HIGH?! Mount Everest is only 5.5 miles high!
Please remember that the word "heavenly" in Hebrews 12:22 is NOT the same as the word "heavenly" in ... say ... Matthew 6:14, 26, 32, 15:18; Luke 2:13; or Acts 26:19. In those verses, the Greek word is "ouranios," meaning "of the sky." In Hebrews 12:22, it is the Greek word "EPouranios," meaning "of ABOVE-the-sky."
I suppose in a sense the New Jerusalem will still be an "epouranios" city since it will tower above the earth's atmosphere, even when sitting on the New Earth; however, don't make the mistake of thinking that this is some sort of "heavenly dimension." That's NOT what the word means.
Wikipedia says this about "Mount Zion" at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Zion:
Actually, the confusion as to its location is found in the truth is that "Mount Zion" is not a single mountain but a mountain RANGE upon which Jerusalem sits! It's the RIDGE upon which Yerushalayim was constructed which includes several peaks.
You might also find it interesting to consider that there are verses of prophecy that CONFUSE the mountain with the city, both in the OT and the NT. A couple of examples would be Psalm 48:1-2 and Hebrews 12:22, the verse with which we are dealing:
The Hebrew of Psalm 48:1-2 (2-3) is this:
2 Gadowl YHVH uwmhulaal m'od b`iyr Eloheeynuw Har-qaadshow:
3 Yfeeh nowf msows kaal-haa'Aarets Har-Tsiown yarkteey tsaafown qiryat-Melekh raav:
2 Gadowl = 2 Great
YHVH = (the)-LORD
uwmhulaal = and-to-be-praised
m'od = constantly (literally, "from-always")
b`iyr = in-city
Eloheeynuw = (of)-our-God
Har- = Mount-
qaadshow: = (of)-His-Holiness.
3 Yfeeh = 3 Beautifully
nowf = positioned
msows = from-delight
kaal- = (of)-all-
haa'Aarets = the-Earth
Har- = Mount
Tsiown = Zion
yarkteey = aligned-with
tsaafown = north
qiryat- = building-
Melekh = (of)-King
raav: = abundant:
2 Great (the)-LORD and-to-be-praised constantly in-city (of)-our-God Mount-(of)-His-Holiness.
3 Beautifully positioned from-delight (of)-all-the-Earth Mount Zion aligned-with north building-(of)-King abundant.
So, we have "in our God's city 'Mount of His Holiness'" and "Mount Zion aligned with north a building (city) of (the) abundant King." Thus, the city is a mountain and the mountain is a city!
The Greek of Hebrews 12:22 is this:
22 Alla proseleeluthate Sioon orei kai polei Theou zoontos, Ierousaleem epouranioo, kai muriasin aggeloon, paneegurei...
22 Alla = 22 But
proseleeluthate = ye-are-come
Sioon = (to)-Zion
orei = mount
kai = and
polei = city
Theou = (of)-God
zoontos, = living,
Ierousaleem = Jerusalem
epouranioo, = of-above-the-sky,
kai = and
muriasin = a-myriad
aggeloon, = of-messengers,
paneegurei... = a-mass-meeting...
22 But ye-are-come (to)-Zion mount and city (of)-God living, Jerusalem of-above-the-sky, and a-myriad of-messengers, a-mass-meeting...
So, in this verse, we have "Zion a mount and a city of living God, above-the-sky Jerusalem." Notice that both "mount" (orei) and "city" (polei) have the same case! They BOTH refer to Zion AND to "above-the-sky Jerusalem!"
Now, why do you suppose that the city is confused with the mountain? Could it be because the New Jerusalem is 1,500 MILES HIGH?! Mount Everest is only 5.5 miles high!
avoice
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- May 17, 2011
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There is no pre trib rapture or secret coming
At the sounding of the 7th trumpet Christs feet touch down on the Mt of Olives and it splits in two period
there is no secret coming.
There is a reaping of Souls the harvest of the earth at the 7th trump.
Rev.14
Some will be reaped into his wrath ..read it theres a double reaping some are reaped by Christ then some are reaped into Wrath by another angel ...
Now where are those reaped by Christ
Prelude to the Bowl Judgments
Rev.15
[sup]2 [/sup]And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God.
[sup]3 [/sup]They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying:
[sup]5 [/sup]After these things I looked, and behold
the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.
[sup]6 [/sup]And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands.
[sup]7 [/sup]Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.
[sup]8 [/sup]The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.
Now pay attention to whats said here Christ has just gathered his own to him (Rev. 14)therefore they are have been changed into incorruptable bodies ....An angel has thrown those with the mark of the beast into God wrath which is about to poured out on earth.
While the temple may be visable to those who were reaped by Christ. NO MAN MAY ENTER IT UNTIL HIS WRATH OF THE 7 BOWLS IS POURED OUT ON THE WICKED.
Now does this say Gods wrath is poured out on faithful ? No ....does it say God protects his own ? yes ..
Is this some secret coming ...NO ITS THE HARVEST OF THE EARTH.
What you all mistake for a pre trib rature is the reaping and it does not occur until the 7th trump. Before his wrath not before the testing and dividing of the tribulation.
All will go through the trib but not all will go through his wrath.
read it yourself .
Christ coming in Rev 19 on a white horse with all his saints is after he has reaped/ gathered his faithful saints from the earth way back in chapter 14. at the sounding of the 7th trump.
He has now poured out his wrath on the wicked destroyed babylon and now we see him on a horse with who ? Those of us he reaped gathered back in Rev 14 that were singing ..waiting for his wrath to done.
At the sounding of the 7th trumpet Christs feet touch down on the Mt of Olives and it splits in two period
there is no secret coming.
There is a reaping of Souls the harvest of the earth at the 7th trump.
Rev.14
Some will be reaped into his wrath ..read it theres a double reaping some are reaped by Christ then some are reaped into Wrath by another angel ...
Now where are those reaped by Christ
Prelude to the Bowl Judgments
Rev.15
[sup]2 [/sup]And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God.
[sup]3 [/sup]They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying:
[sup]5 [/sup]After these things I looked, and behold
the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.
[sup]6 [/sup]And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands.
[sup]7 [/sup]Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.
[sup]8 [/sup]The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.
Now pay attention to whats said here Christ has just gathered his own to him (Rev. 14)therefore they are have been changed into incorruptable bodies ....An angel has thrown those with the mark of the beast into God wrath which is about to poured out on earth.
While the temple may be visable to those who were reaped by Christ. NO MAN MAY ENTER IT UNTIL HIS WRATH OF THE 7 BOWLS IS POURED OUT ON THE WICKED.
Now does this say Gods wrath is poured out on faithful ? No ....does it say God protects his own ? yes ..
Is this some secret coming ...NO ITS THE HARVEST OF THE EARTH.
What you all mistake for a pre trib rature is the reaping and it does not occur until the 7th trump. Before his wrath not before the testing and dividing of the tribulation.
All will go through the trib but not all will go through his wrath.
read it yourself .
Christ coming in Rev 19 on a white horse with all his saints is after he has reaped/ gathered his faithful saints from the earth way back in chapter 14. at the sounding of the 7th trump.
He has now poured out his wrath on the wicked destroyed babylon and now we see him on a horse with who ? Those of us he reaped gathered back in Rev 14 that were singing ..waiting for his wrath to done.
With so much instruction on the rapture (and i do believe there will be a rapture) how is it possible that when it occurs that the remaining people on earth can explain how it could have transpired except God is real. I believe I wrote about that ability of taking a person at a time in the rapture, but not all at once. Possibly during the time of Revelation Prophecy people are disappearing and though believed missing... may have been taken (raptured). Below I wish to convey another possibility.
I am a mid-term rapture believer. And being a mid-term believer allows the possibility that the anti-christ (after claiming to be the messiah) foretells of an impending rapture of which "he" is responsible. yet "he" also tells the people that he will not tell when... claims it will be a surprise or something else. the point is HE claims to be the reason for the rapture prior to the rapture taking place. And thus, when it does happen... his position and status is in no way diminished.
I am a mid-term rapture believer. And being a mid-term believer allows the possibility that the anti-christ (after claiming to be the messiah) foretells of an impending rapture of which "he" is responsible. yet "he" also tells the people that he will not tell when... claims it will be a surprise or something else. the point is HE claims to be the reason for the rapture prior to the rapture taking place. And thus, when it does happen... his position and status is in no way diminished.
I know you don't like my usage of the term 'dimensions', but that's exactly what this is about. The New Jerusalem will be situated upon the earth in the holy land and will go up into outer space above the earth like the details in Ezek.48 and Revelation reveal. But that's not only what determines the 'dimension' of existence between heaven and earth then, it's what type of body we will have then that determines the joining of the two dimensions in space and time, for we all will be in the "spiritual body" type Paul preached in 1 Cor.15 as our Lord Jesus also revealed in John 5:28-29 and Matt.22:30. It's not going to be some mixed existence with people still in the flesh body of today alongside those who've been changed to the resurrection body. All... peoples will be in resurrection type bodies in that time after Christ's return, including those of the "unjust".
Taken from Letters from God and His Christ at Trumpet Call of God:
<<Link Removed.>> > The Mystery of Heaven
Listen:
9/04 From God The Father - A Letter Given to Timothy, For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear
Question asked by Timothy: Lord, is Jack Van Impe’s idea of Heaven correct?
[Answer from God The Father] All these things I say to you are tried and true, and yours to know through The Holy Spirit. For these things regarding Heaven and its location, spoken of by My servant Van Impe, are true, save these: No one may know Heaven, or where it abounds, until the due time. I shall bring from My Heaven, a new Heaven to earth, for all men... And with them shall I dwell. Those caught up with The Son shall know Heaven and My dwelling place, for I also dwell with men. Heaven is not defined by space and time, nor measure or distance... For it is and is not. Men have not the mind, nor understanding, to know such things, until their transformation from the perishable to the imperishable.
Know this: My Heaven is everlasting...
It has always been and will always be, from now and forever.
Timothy, your family will see and know My dwelling place, for My Son will bring them...
Take much comfort in this.
It has always been and will always be, from now and forever.
Timothy, your family will see and know My dwelling place, for My Son will bring them...
Take much comfort in this.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, kjhughes.
Well, that all SOUNDS good, but the truth is that God the Father did NOT write it, and the liberties taken in this response border on blasphemy. Tickling the ears like this may be a feel-good kind of answer, but it is NOT the truth! Stick to the Scriptures! If you don't, you're diverging from Truth and will more than likely end up where you don't really want to go.
Although I don't necessarily agree with Jack Van Impe's view on Heaven, the one thing I've ALWAYS appreciated about the man is the time He has taken to memorize Scripture! Whether he understands it completely or not, in sticking with Scripture he is more likely to give a right response than not. It's just that sometimes I'm sure that the English of the Scripture he has memorized may not convey to him what was intended in the Hebrew or the Greek.
To all of this, I answer with Matthew 16:1-4:
Matthew 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou, from ouranos).
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos) is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos) is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: tou ouranou, from ouranos); but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV
Well, that all SOUNDS good, but the truth is that God the Father did NOT write it, and the liberties taken in this response border on blasphemy. Tickling the ears like this may be a feel-good kind of answer, but it is NOT the truth! Stick to the Scriptures! If you don't, you're diverging from Truth and will more than likely end up where you don't really want to go.
Although I don't necessarily agree with Jack Van Impe's view on Heaven, the one thing I've ALWAYS appreciated about the man is the time He has taken to memorize Scripture! Whether he understands it completely or not, in sticking with Scripture he is more likely to give a right response than not. It's just that sometimes I'm sure that the English of the Scripture he has memorized may not convey to him what was intended in the Hebrew or the Greek.
To all of this, I answer with Matthew 16:1-4:
Matthew 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou, from ouranos).
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos) is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos) is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: tou ouranou, from ouranos); but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV
Who are these? You know.
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:13-14
Many Are Called, Few Are Chosen...*All Shall Be Saved. The First Harvest Shall Be Lowly...The Second, Plenteous.
Listen:
11/12/06 From Our Lord and Savior, Jesus The Christ - A Letter Given to Timothy, For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear
Many Are Called, Few Are Chosen... *All Shall Be Saved[sup][1][/sup]. The First Harvest Shall Be Lowly... The Second, Plenteous.
Timothy, write as I speak, and hear and understand The Lord’s purpose. I have sent you out among My sheep, as a shepherd who has no experience nor knowledge of My flock. Yet from your birth, yea, before your formation, you were ordained as a beacon and a light, a prophet and an enemy to men. I have called you out as an empty vessel of dishonor, of which I have cleansed and filled unto great honor, a man who shall be greatly hated of men and the world. Even men of My own fold shall come to hate you and cast stones at you. I have called you out of the world, and I send you back into the world... Even among My own church shall I send you. Lo, you are of My body, but separate from that which is called My body by men. Behold, Timothy, I have sent you out amongst wolves and sheep, of which both shall bite at you and wish to trample you. You are sent to speak the Truth Absolute, and to make war in My members... To make enemies, not friends. You shall slay your brother in his heart with the sword, which is the Word of My mouth. In one hand, a sharp sword with two edges, which is the Truth Absolute; and in the other, a trumpet to sound the warning.
Here is wisdom: God is just in everything. And if The Father’s justice is not a respecter of persons, then it shall surely come to pass in these last few short days (years)... Those who would be first shall be last, and those who were last shall be first.
For what shall I do, and what shall I say, to these who speak My name continually, invoking My words from Scripture and My statutes, and then going in that self-same hour and disobeying them? Shall any man, who thinks himself righteous because he knows My name, be taken out of The Lord’s day as a reward for his disobedience and high-mindedness?... Surely not! What of all these men, who speak My name and My Word continually, in the judgment of others, to exalt their own selves? Shall I then reward them for their lack of humility, exalting them to Heaven, though they stand firm for themselves and not Me?... Surely not! Of My servants, I require all humility and meekness and faith, rightly dividing My Word unto edification of their brothers and sisters, not in justification of themselves, by themselves, for their own churches who do not keep My Commandments nor honor My statutes.
Thus says The Lord to all servants, who call of themselves servants in My name: Do you really know Me? Do you abide in Me?... And if I abide in you, then where is My fruit of My own Spirit of which I have given you?... I have not seen it! What have you done with My gifts? My lost sheep, where have you laid them?... They lie next to your faith, which has also been misplaced. Why do you now come against Me? For all you have done shall be accounted to you, unless you repent and cast away these filthy robes of arrogance and pride. You have asked of Me forgiveness, in My name, and I have washed you in My own blood... You are now married unto Me, beloved! How is it that you now play the harlot and return to those same things of which I have forgiven you? Beloved, The Lord does not change! Yet you have endeavored to change My Word to suit your own selfishness, to hold onto that which is abomination in the eyes of God! Shall I then gather you up and reward you for your error?... Surely not! Are you saved in spite of your error?... Yes, The Lord does not lie to His sheep. But remember this: The Lord will surely correct and discipline those He loves, making His bride fit for her Husband when He returns for her.
My servants, hold your lamps up so I may see your faces! Why have you poured out the pure oil I gave you and intermingled it with the dirt upon the ground? Your lamps will not light, they have gone out. Hurry and buy some new oil, quickly, from those who I have sent to sell you of the pure oil, which I have given them.
Thus says The Lord, who died and is alive forevermore... Amen: I have sent out the watchmen, My prophets, of whom you shall know by their fruits. Woe to those, who do not embrace their words and give heed to their correction, for it would have been better for you if you had never met them, nor heard them, and remained in your ignorance. Lo, you have heard them, and now you are bound by their word, a cord you shall not cut, for theirs is the Word of God brought forth through their own mouths. Behold, it is I , even I, who speaks! So then, all those, who come against them, come against Me. And those, who stone them by rock or word, even these shall I not gather, for I shall leave them in the midst of the fire, left unto refinement... A great humbling. There shall be great wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Thus says your Master, your Teacher, the Bearer of your cross, of which I carried because of My love for you: Servants, you stand too tall, your girth is too wide, you are unable to pass... For small is the gate and narrow is the way into Heaven. NO MAN, great in stature, may enter... Called Christian or otherwise. For it is the humble, penitent man who shall enter. No name, nor mere proclamation or work, shall bring you to My Father’s house, for I search the hearts and minds! Do I require, then, perfection?... Certainly not. I require a sincere, loving heart, a man fully converted in his inward parts, a sincere striving to obey, a man who continually comes to Me in total love and trust when he stumbles, a man of My own Spirit, a man after My own heart.
So beloved, and all those who call themselves by My name,
I ask you again, do you really love Me?...
Then follow Me.
I ask you again, do you really love Me?...
Then follow Me.
Beloved, who call of themselves by My own name, do you really love Me?...
Then obey My Word. Follow Me.
Beloved, who call themselves by My own name, do you really love Me?...
Then leave everything and follow Me.
Stop breaking My heart and giving heed to the devil... Follow Me!
Then obey My Word. Follow Me.
Beloved, who call themselves by My own name, do you really love Me?...
Then leave everything and follow Me.
Stop breaking My heart and giving heed to the devil... Follow Me!
I have always loved you. Even from the beginning, I have loved you... I am your Maker, your Carpenter, your Father. Let go, beloved, let go of your pride, let go of this world, let go and come to Me in Truth... Your salvation is assured.
I know all, who are in My Kingdom, given Me of The Father. I know who all of you are, I know who you are to become. Hear Me, beloved. Turn not to the right, nor the left, stay focused on Me... I am the Truth, the Way and the Life, the Path you must follow. I do not change... I am the same yesterday, today and all tomorrows to come. What I have written let no man change. Rather, follow Me as I have said and not as you would have Me say. Keep The Father’s Commandments, as He had written them in stone by His own finger... In number, ten. Keep them all, remember them all, and do them according to how they are written, not as man has rewritten them, and it shall be credited unto you for righteousness. I have freed you from the curse of the Law; I have not freed you from obedience to the Law.Rather, I have given you the means, by My own Spirit, to keep the Law. Oh beloved, why do you not understand My speech? Why do you not love Me? Why have you lost the desire to follow Me? My love has not changed, yet you have changed, becoming lords unto yourselves. Beloved, keep what The Father has given you... Stop desecrating His Sabbaths! The Law stands forever, and all that is contained therein also stands. Even from Sabbath to Sabbath, in the Kingdom, shall the nations come up to Jerusalem and worship Me. So then, My beloved, follow Me, and make our love perfect in obedience, and embrace My prophets, and separate yourselves from those who are false, who deny My name by all they do. For any man, who embraces those who deny Me, embraces he who is against Me. And any, who embrace those I send, he also shall My Father embrace and hide in His Sanctuary.
Beloved, you shall surely know My prophets by their fruit, of which the devil can not duplicate... Imitate, yes... Duplicate, no. Thus shall you know them by their fruits and by their continual trumpeting of My name and My coming. I am in them, and they in Me. Woe to any man who comes against them in these last days: To the wicked, they shall be burned and consumed; and to the false-righteous, these shall be left standing where they ought not to be... Left in bewilderment and tears... Abased for their arrogance, pride, judgements, persecutions, false teachings, evil surmisings, envy, foolish-talking and wrath. Yet shall they be saved, as one being refined by the fires of The Father’s correction and discipline, but not falling under His judgement because of My name... Rather, coming into My Kingdom by great tribulation of the world and men, taken through by the Right Hand of God... Some martyred to the glory of God, others hidden in the desert for a time, times and a half of time. Many shall behold the angels of Heaven ascending and descending upon The Son of Man in those days. Timothy, sift My wheat by all I have given you!
The Trumpet is blowing, the bride is being prepared... the wedding supper approaches.
The seals are placed in the hands of The Holy One of Israel...
The Great Day of The Lord God Almighty is upon you.
Look up, your redemption draws nigh.
My people, remember, God is just in everything.
Amen.
The seals are placed in the hands of The Holy One of Israel...
The Great Day of The Lord God Almighty is upon you.
Look up, your redemption draws nigh.
My people, remember, God is just in everything.
Amen.
- ↑ [*Note, regarding the title where it states, "All Shall Be Saved": Not all will be saved... Only those who call on The Messiah's name, the humble and penitent, will be saved. Some will escape, while others will be left unto refinement in the Day of the Lord. Yetall, who call on the name of The Lord, will be saved (Joel 2:32). This Letter was addressed to all those who trust in The Messiah, Jesus The Christ, YahuShua HaMashiach; and indeed, all who are truly converted in their hearts, in whom The Lord sees of Himself, will be saved... "for Love has saved them".]
That's FALSENESS! And I CALL YOU OUT ON THAT, BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND AUTHORITY OF MY LORD JESUS CHRIST.
That is suggesting that we should listen to those like Jack Van Impe INSTEAD of The LORD GOD through His Son Jesus Christ, as The Holy Spirit will NEVER disagree with GOD's Holy Writ. By the falseness you have presented you have deemed yourself a false prophet.
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